Somalis exiting Netherlands for Britain
TILBURG, Netherlands ? An estimated 20,000 Dutch Somalis have left the Netherlands for Britain over the past five years, escaping a multicultural model once touted as the most enlightened in the world.
They have expressed frustration with a system they say keeps them trapped in welfare dependency and fosters ethnic tension.
Somali Muslim families are moving en masse to Leicester and Birmingham in England from the industrial cities of Tilburg and Rotterdam in the Netherlands.
The exodus is linked to the anti-Muslim feeling that burst into the open with the advent of Pim Fortuyn, the populist politician who was fatally shot and whose party crushed the Dutch establishment in the 2002 elections.
But it began earlier. Adan Igeh Hussein, of the Somali European Forum, said Somalis felt bullied by a "forced assimilation" policy, which orders them to live apart in scattered housing.
"It's not that the British are more friendly than the Dutch. It is just that they let us stay as we are. Somalis can integrate without losing their cultural identity," he said.
Dutch rules make it difficult for new arrivals to work for the first five years, yet migrants are resented if take state handouts.
"We don't want to depend on social benefits. We're a business-oriented people, but here the rules and red tape make it a nightmare to start anything. You have to have a certificate just to clean houses. In Britain, it's so much easier if you want to set up a restaurant or a shop," he said.
Adan Hassan, the Somali owner of a Tilburg Internet cafe, said the Netherlands' image had always been an illusion.
"The Dutch think they are multicultural, tolerant people, and they are in a way, but if you go deeply inside, nothing is what it seems. The system is closed to outsiders," he said.
"We've been here for 12 or 15 years. The government gives us housing, it spends a lot of money, but it's still been a failure. After one year in Britain, everybody is very happy," he said.
Half of Tilburg's 3,000 Somalis already have left, mostly crowding together on a few streets in Leicester.
The Racism and Extreme Right Monitor in the Netherlands has reported a surge in violent attacks on Dutch Muslims since the slaying of filmmaker Theo van Gogh by an Islamic fanatic.
Denmark also has seen an exodus of Somalis, with as many as 4,000 leaving for Britain from Aarhus over two years.
A Danish study found that migrants were shocked by Britain's poor housing and dirty streets, but still clung to an "idyllic" vision of English freedom "even after arriving."
It said Somali women were made to feel inadequate by Denmark's feminism if they stayed at home to look after their children.
Academic studies estimate there are now 70,000 to 100,000 Somalis in Britain. Officially, the figure is 20,000.
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
For those of you who are opposed, can you explain why? Are you also opposed to government aid to suffering regions? How about corporate welfare?
So then you are against the US going into Afghanistan and Iraq (for that fact, all foreign meddling altogether)?Originally posted by: HalosPuma
Other nations can take care of their own damn problems. It is of no concern to me at all if their people are dying. Let their own citizens learn to deal with their problems or else it will continue on indefinately for generations.
That's a complete non sequitur.Originally posted by: her209
So then you are against the US going into Afghanistan and Iraq (for that fact, all foreign meddling altogether)?Originally posted by: HalosPuma
Other nations can take care of their own damn problems. It is of no concern to me at all if their people are dying. Let their own citizens learn to deal with their problems or else it will continue on indefinately for generations.
Originally posted by: HalosPuma
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
For those of you who are opposed, can you explain why? Are you also opposed to government aid to suffering regions? How about corporate welfare?
#1 - IT'S MY MONEY, NOT YOURS!
Really, it's that fvcking simple. I don't understand why you liberals cannot see that. There are certain items in our Constitution that Congress can allocate money for. Some include a navy, the militia, post roads, etc. There is nothing that says each and every citizen, based on their income, must be taxed at different rates to support those who cannot take care of themselves.
The welfare of the less fortunate was orginally taken care of by the local communities and their Christian churches. You are more than welcome to donate any or all of your income to help the welfare of others, but don't you dare steal my money just so you can "feel good" about helping others.
Redistributing wealth from the successful to the lazy only increases the tension and bitterness in society. For those of us who are successful, we learn to resent and hate those who receive our stolen wealth and wish they would either learn how to take care of themselves or die and stop reproducing. For the lazy, they learn nothing other than by continuing to stay lazy, they will continue to receive government handouts. They view us successful people with contempt and jealousy and seek to steal even more wealth from us.
#2 - IT'S MY MONEY, NOT YOURS!
There is no provision at all in our Constitution that says each and every citizen, based on their income, must be taxed at different rates to support foreigners. You are more than welcome to donate any or all of your income to help the welfare of foreigners who are not from rogue nations, but don't you dare steal my money just so you can "feel good" about helping others.
Other nations can take care of their own damn problems. It is of no concern to me at all if their people are dying. Let their own citizens learn to deal with their problems or else it will continue on indefinately for generations.
#3 - ANOTHER CONSPIRACY THEORY
Corporate "welfare?" Is this another one of your conspiracy theories? Why don't you use economic terms to describe your whine and I'll comment.
The trick, though, is finding out how to profit from the welfare state. If certain individuals in our society want to use government to steal from others in order to give themselves a "feel-good" emotion, then we successful people will most certainly find a way to get back our money and more. For example, if John Kerry had become president, the welfare state for health would have increased dramatically. A good way to profit from this would be to invest in the sectors and corporations which would have been recipients of our stolen wealth, etc. The smart money will always find a way to get back their stolen wealth.
Originally posted by: HalosPuma
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
For those of you who are opposed, can you explain why? Are you also opposed to government aid to suffering regions? How about corporate welfare?
#1 - IT'S MY MONEY, NOT YOURS!
Really, it's that fvcking simple. I don't understand why you liberals cannot see that. There are certain items in our Constitution that Congress can allocate money for. Some include a navy, the militia, post roads, etc. There is nothing that says each and every citizen, based on their income, must be taxed at different rates to support those who cannot take care of themselves.
The welfare of the less fortunate was orginally taken care of by the local communities and their Christian churches. You are more than welcome to donate any or all of your income to help the welfare of others, but don't you dare steal my money just so you can "feel good" about helping others.
Redistributing wealth from the successful to the lazy only increases the tension and bitterness in society. For those of us who are successful, we learn to resent and hate those who receive our stolen wealth and wish they would either learn how to take care of themselves or die and stop reproducing. For the lazy, they learn nothing other than by continuing to stay lazy, they will continue to receive government handouts. They view us successful people with contempt and jealousy and seek to steal even more wealth from us.
#2 - IT'S MY MONEY, NOT YOURS!
There is no provision at all in our Constitution that says each and every citizen, based on their income, must be taxed at different rates to support foreigners. You are more than welcome to donate any or all of your income to help the welfare of foreigners who are not from rogue nations, but don't you dare steal my money just so you can "feel good" about helping others.
Other nations can take care of their own damn problems. It is of no concern to me at all if their people are dying. Let their own citizens learn to deal with their problems or else it will continue on indefinately for generations.
#3 - ANOTHER CONSPIRACY THEORY
Corporate "welfare?" Is this another one of your conspiracy theories? Why don't you use economic terms to describe your whine and I'll comment.
The trick, though, is finding out how to profit from the welfare state. If certain individuals in our society want to use government to steal from others in order to give themselves a "feel-good" emotion, then we successful people will most certainly find a way to get back our money and more. For example, if John Kerry had become president, the welfare state for health would have increased dramatically. A good way to profit from this would be to invest in the sectors and corporations which would have been recipients of our stolen wealth, etc. The smart money will always find a way to get back their stolen wealth.
Originally posted by: desy
I don't have a problem with welfare and a huge majority are off within a couple of yrs something like 90% if memeory serves.
What Halos doesn't understand is he actually cost us money educating him, keeping him healthy, building roads and good gov't, lots of money, and paid for by taxes you see it was an investment in his potential.
Now the greedy pr1ck doesn't think he owes society anything? Well, judge a society by how you treat the least among you. The largest proportion of welfare recipients are single mothers who definately could use a hand raising the future.
Crime statistics go up as poverty rates go up, if you have nothing to lose. . . . .
The problems are there though and I'm fully in favor of some type of welfare reform as in any system, I think its called the 3 percenter rule, there are the outright cheats and stealers. I look to corporate welfare and gov't waste as a much larger issue. I've said this in the past when this topic gets brought up.
Don't worry about the nickels and dimes when the dollars are slipping away. . .
Homeland security lawnmower races anybody?
Originally posted by: her209
So then you are against the US going into Afghanistan and Iraq (for that fact, all foreign meddling altogether)?Originally posted by: HalosPuma
Other nations can take care of their own damn problems. It is of no concern to me at all if their people are dying. Let their own citizens learn to deal with their problems or else it will continue on indefinately for generations.
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: HalosPuma
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
For those of you who are opposed, can you explain why? Are you also opposed to government aid to suffering regions? How about corporate welfare?
#1 - IT'S MY MONEY, NOT YOURS!
Really, it's that fvcking simple. I don't understand why you liberals cannot see that. There are certain items in our Constitution that Congress can allocate money for. Some include a navy, the militia, post roads, etc. There is nothing that says each and every citizen, based on their income, must be taxed at different rates to support those who cannot take care of themselves.
The welfare of the less fortunate was orginally taken care of by the local communities and their Christian churches. You are more than welcome to donate any or all of your income to help the welfare of others, but don't you dare steal my money just so you can "feel good" about helping others.
Redistributing wealth from the successful to the lazy only increases the tension and bitterness in society. For those of us who are successful, we learn to resent and hate those who receive our stolen wealth and wish they would either learn how to take care of themselves or die and stop reproducing. For the lazy, they learn nothing other than by continuing to stay lazy, they will continue to receive government handouts. They view us successful people with contempt and jealousy and seek to steal even more wealth from us.
#2 - IT'S MY MONEY, NOT YOURS!
There is no provision at all in our Constitution that says each and every citizen, based on their income, must be taxed at different rates to support foreigners. You are more than welcome to donate any or all of your income to help the welfare of foreigners who are not from rogue nations, but don't you dare steal my money just so you can "feel good" about helping others.
Other nations can take care of their own damn problems. It is of no concern to me at all if their people are dying. Let their own citizens learn to deal with their problems or else it will continue on indefinately for generations.
#3 - ANOTHER CONSPIRACY THEORY
Corporate "welfare?" Is this another one of your conspiracy theories? Why don't you use economic terms to describe your whine and I'll comment.
The trick, though, is finding out how to profit from the welfare state. If certain individuals in our society want to use government to steal from others in order to give themselves a "feel-good" emotion, then we successful people will most certainly find a way to get back our money and more. For example, if John Kerry had become president, the welfare state for health would have increased dramatically. A good way to profit from this would be to invest in the sectors and corporations which would have been recipients of our stolen wealth, etc. The smart money will always find a way to get back their stolen wealth.
Interesting. You in particular have no problem taking our money to waste on the military industrial complex. Also, I'm quite sure that wealth is poorly correlated to effort, and the hardworking poor also can become resentful of those who benefit with no work, and contribute nothing to society (the rich). Let me make this clear. Very few people are rich through hard work, (although very many who hard hard are still poor) and even fewer are VERY rich through hard work. People who do become rich generally do it through violation of the system (bill gates anyone?)
Corporate welfare is real, and it is not a conspiracy theory. One prime example is the airline industry which has been and continues to be proped up with government funds.
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: HalosPuma
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
For those of you who are opposed, can you explain why? Are you also opposed to government aid to suffering regions? How about corporate welfare?
#1 - IT'S MY MONEY, NOT YOURS!
Really, it's that fvcking simple. I don't understand why you liberals cannot see that. There are certain items in our Constitution that Congress can allocate money for. Some include a navy, the militia, post roads, etc. There is nothing that says each and every citizen, based on their income, must be taxed at different rates to support those who cannot take care of themselves.
The welfare of the less fortunate was orginally taken care of by the local communities and their Christian churches. You are more than welcome to donate any or all of your income to help the welfare of others, but don't you dare steal my money just so you can "feel good" about helping others.
Redistributing wealth from the successful to the lazy only increases the tension and bitterness in society. For those of us who are successful, we learn to resent and hate those who receive our stolen wealth and wish they would either learn how to take care of themselves or die and stop reproducing. For the lazy, they learn nothing other than by continuing to stay lazy, they will continue to receive government handouts. They view us successful people with contempt and jealousy and seek to steal even more wealth from us.
#2 - IT'S MY MONEY, NOT YOURS!
There is no provision at all in our Constitution that says each and every citizen, based on their income, must be taxed at different rates to support foreigners. You are more than welcome to donate any or all of your income to help the welfare of foreigners who are not from rogue nations, but don't you dare steal my money just so you can "feel good" about helping others.
Other nations can take care of their own damn problems. It is of no concern to me at all if their people are dying. Let their own citizens learn to deal with their problems or else it will continue on indefinately for generations.
#3 - ANOTHER CONSPIRACY THEORY
Corporate "welfare?" Is this another one of your conspiracy theories? Why don't you use economic terms to describe your whine and I'll comment.
The trick, though, is finding out how to profit from the welfare state. If certain individuals in our society want to use government to steal from others in order to give themselves a "feel-good" emotion, then we successful people will most certainly find a way to get back our money and more. For example, if John Kerry had become president, the welfare state for health would have increased dramatically. A good way to profit from this would be to invest in the sectors and corporations which would have been recipients of our stolen wealth, etc. The smart money will always find a way to get back their stolen wealth.
Interesting. You in particular have no problem taking our money to waste on the military industrial complex. Also, I'm quite sure that wealth is poorly correlated to effort, and the hardworking poor also can become resentful of those who benefit with no work, and contribute nothing to society (the rich). Let me make this clear. Very few people are rich through hard work, (although very many who hard hard are still poor) and even fewer are VERY rich through hard work. People who do become rich generally do it through violation of the system (bill gates anyone?)
Corporate welfare is real, and it is not a conspiracy theory. One prime example is the airline industry which has been and continues to be proped up with government funds.
I don't know what your major is, but it surely isn't economics. It doesn't appear to be history either.
Good constructive comment to add to the conversatoin :thumbsdown:Originally posted by: bamacre
He's majoring in asshole, wait, no..., uh..., OH, he's just a major asshole.
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Interesting. You in particular have no problem taking our money to waste on the military industrial complex. Also, I'm quite sure that wealth is poorly correlated to effort, and the hardworking poor also can become resentful of those who benefit with no work, and contribute nothing to society (the rich). Let me make this clear. Very few people are rich through hard work, (although very many who hard hard are still poor) and even fewer are VERY rich through hard work. People who do become rich generally do it through violation of the system (bill gates anyone?)
Corporate welfare is real, and it is not a conspiracy theory. One prime example is the airline industry which has been and continues to be proped up with government funds.
Originally posted by: Forsythe
Originally posted by: HalosPuma
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
For those of you who are opposed, can you explain why? Are you also opposed to government aid to suffering regions? How about corporate welfare?
#1 - IT'S MY MONEY, NOT YOURS!
Really, it's that fvcking simple. I don't understand why you liberals cannot see that. There are certain items in our Constitution that Congress can allocate money for. Some include a navy, the militia, post roads, etc. There is nothing that says each and every citizen, based on their income, must be taxed at different rates to support those who cannot take care of themselves.
The welfare of the less fortunate was orginally taken care of by the local communities and their Christian churches. You are more than welcome to donate any or all of your income to help the welfare of others, but don't you dare steal my money just so you can "feel good" about helping others.
Redistributing wealth from the successful to the lazy only increases the tension and bitterness in society. For those of us who are successful, we learn to resent and hate those who receive our stolen wealth and wish they would either learn how to take care of themselves or die and stop reproducing. For the lazy, they learn nothing other than by continuing to stay lazy, they will continue to receive government handouts. They view us successful people with contempt and jealousy and seek to steal even more wealth from us.
#2 - IT'S MY MONEY, NOT YOURS!
There is no provision at all in our Constitution that says each and every citizen, based on their income, must be taxed at different rates to support foreigners. You are more than welcome to donate any or all of your income to help the welfare of foreigners who are not from rogue nations, but don't you dare steal my money just so you can "feel good" about helping others.
Other nations can take care of their own damn problems. It is of no concern to me at all if their people are dying. Let their own citizens learn to deal with their problems or else it will continue on indefinately for generations.
#3 - ANOTHER CONSPIRACY THEORY
Corporate "welfare?" Is this another one of your conspiracy theories? Why don't you use economic terms to describe your whine and I'll comment.
The trick, though, is finding out how to profit from the welfare state. If certain individuals in our society want to use government to steal from others in order to give themselves a "feel-good" emotion, then we successful people will most certainly find a way to get back our money and more. For example, if John Kerry had become president, the welfare state for health would have increased dramatically. A good way to profit from this would be to invest in the sectors and corporations which would have been recipients of our stolen wealth, etc. The smart money will always find a way to get back their stolen wealth.
Welcome back to the 17th century...
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I'm against involuntary wealth transfer schemes that do not have a well defined and controlled target.
I'm also against involuntary wealth transfer schemes that do not have checks in place to judge and quantify actual RESULTS(not intent).
I'm against involuntary wealth transfer schemes that are hand-outs instead of hand-ups. The purpose of programs such as these is to help, not make them reliant.
CsG
Originally posted by: Commodus
One group of people that bugs me is that which argues for "workfare." You want to talk about maintaining dependencies? Try not only keeping someone on welfare, but taking away any of the time they would normally have to look for a non-workfare job. As I'm sure some of you have been taught, job-hunting can sometimes be a job in itself: you need to line up endless interviews, polish your CV, look into getting certifications, and so on.
Not to mention that there's also the issue of the entry-level jobs themselves: if we're to downplay or eliminate welfare, the minimum wage must go up dramatically. Some people here remain acutely unaware of just how insufficient minimum wage is. There are people who work two jobs at that pay level but still have trouble supporting a small family - and sometimes, even themselves. Some may choose welfare simply because it doesn't require that they work 80 hours a week to achieve similar ends.
The worst part is that I'm sure a lot of right-wing politicians (and some of their supporters here in the forums) would vehemently object to a minimum wage increase, since it would "hurt the sustainability of businesses." But it should be noted that businesses like, say, Wal-Mart could directly stand to benefit. After all, a place like Wal-Mart is known as a haven for minimum-wage or otherwise lower-class workers; increasing the amount of disposable income for those workers (whether they're employees or not) encourages them to spend more of it at your shop.
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
I am opposed to corporate welfare. Only businesses run by Bush should get special aid.
Originally posted by: Grunt03
The problem with welfare is when it is offered so freely, people tend to stay on it for ever. The entire system needs to be overhauled, it needs to be monitored closely and the rules and guidlines need to be enforced.
We are not the world bank and should not become one. We need to learn to say no and make others earn their way.........