The worlds oil supply

[phantom309]

Originally posted by: ahurtt
Ok I know oil is used for many things besides just refining it into gasoline or petrol for running our cars and trucks and whatever else utilizes combustion engines. As I understand it is used in things like lubricants and plastics manufacturing as well. But isn't combustion for moving people and materials around the planet the thing that causes the most pollution and consumes the vast majority of the oil produced? To that end, how much modification to the design of modern combustion engines would be required to make them run on other, clean-burning combustible materials. Alcohol comes to mind. Doesn't it burn clean? And wouldn't it be much cheaper / easier to produce? And it doesn't seem like we'd ever have to worry about running out of it. And then maybe alcohol would have an actual use besides getting ugly people laid. Why haven't we seen more of a movement in this direction? What are the limiting factors to burning alcohol as a fuel?

Is this too off topic for this post? Should I start a separate thread to explore this?

Alcohol made from crops fertilized with petroleum-based fertilizer, sprayed with petroleum-based pesticides, harvested by petroleum-powered machines, and distilled using heat, which has to come from somewhere. You have to think of the big picture - it takes more energy to make a gallon of ethanol than you can get back out of it. Hydrogen has the same problem. You see, you can't manufacture energy. You can only convert into a different form, and every time you do that you lose some.

It took tremendous amounts of energy to make all that oil, gas and coal too - but that energy came ultimately from the Sun over millions of years, millions of years before we got here. That's the beauty of fossil fuels - as far as we're concerned it's "free" energy. All we have to do is get it out of the ground. But as it runs out nothing else will even come close to replacing it.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: phantom309

Originally posted by: ahurtt
Ok I know oil is used for many things besides just refining it into gasoline or petrol for running our cars and trucks and whatever else utilizes combustion engines. As I understand it is used in things like lubricants and plastics manufacturing as well. But isn't combustion for moving people and materials around the planet the thing that causes the most pollution and consumes the vast majority of the oil produced? To that end, how much modification to the design of modern combustion engines would be required to make them run on other, clean-burning combustible materials. Alcohol comes to mind. Doesn't it burn clean? And wouldn't it be much cheaper / easier to produce? And it doesn't seem like we'd ever have to worry about running out of it. And then maybe alcohol would have an actual use besides getting ugly people laid. Why haven't we seen more of a movement in this direction? What are the limiting factors to burning alcohol as a fuel? I'm not saying stop using oil products for everything but maybe just take the thing that predominantly uses most oil and causes the most pollution and change that.

Is this too off topic for this post? Should I start a separate thread to explore this?

Alcohol made from crops fertilized with petroleum-based fertilizer, sprayed with petroleum-based pesticides, harvested by petroleum-powered machines, and distilled using heat, which has to come from somewhere. You have to think of the big picture - it takes more energy to make a gallon of ethanol than you can get back out of it. Hydrogen has the same problem. You see, you can't manufacture energy. You can only convert into a different form, and every time you do that you lose some.

It took tremendous amounts of energy to make all that oil, gas and coal too - but that energy came ultimately from the Sun over millions of years, millions of years before we got here. That's the beauty of fossil fuels - as far as we're concerned it's "free" energy. All we have to do is get it out of the ground. But as it runs out nothing else will even come close to replacing it.

Petroleum based products are used for all those things now because no alcohol fuel exists. But once you prime the pump, couldn't some of those processes be switched to use some of the very fuel being produced? I know some things in the world will still be based on petroleum products, but the worst consumer of oil is probably combustion engines. The fertilizers and such that we use on commercial crops for human consumption might not be needed in such quantities when you are talking about producing something that is going to be distilled into non-human consumable fuel. Would you have to give the same degree of care to a crop that was going to be used to produce fuel for moving cars as you would a crop that somebody was going to eat? I guess what I'm asking is, if the machines that make gasoline now currently run on gasoline, why couldn't machines that make alcohol fuels run off alcohol? And the government could stop subsidising farmers not to cultivate their excess land and that excess crop could be put to use producing fuel instead. I'm not saying stop using oil products for everything but take the thing that consumes a vast majority of it and causes the most pollution and change that.

 

[phantom309]

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: phantom309

Originally posted by: ahurtt
Ok I know oil is used for many things besides just refining it into gasoline or petrol for running our cars and trucks and whatever else utilizes combustion engines. As I understand it is used in things like lubricants and plastics manufacturing as well. But isn't combustion for moving people and materials around the planet the thing that causes the most pollution and consumes the vast majority of the oil produced? To that end, how much modification to the design of modern combustion engines would be required to make them run on other, clean-burning combustible materials. Alcohol comes to mind. Doesn't it burn clean? And wouldn't it be much cheaper / easier to produce? And it doesn't seem like we'd ever have to worry about running out of it. And then maybe alcohol would have an actual use besides getting ugly people laid. Why haven't we seen more of a movement in this direction? What are the limiting factors to burning alcohol as a fuel? I'm not saying stop using oil products for everything but maybe just take the thing that predominantly uses most oil and causes the most pollution and change that.

Is this too off topic for this post? Should I start a separate thread to explore this?

Alcohol made from crops fertilized with petroleum-based fertilizer, sprayed with petroleum-based pesticides, harvested by petroleum-powered machines, and distilled using heat, which has to come from somewhere. You have to think of the big picture - it takes more energy to make a gallon of ethanol than you can get back out of it. Hydrogen has the same problem. You see, you can't manufacture energy. You can only convert into a different form, and every time you do that you lose some.

It took tremendous amounts of energy to make all that oil, gas and coal too - but that energy came ultimately from the Sun over millions of years, millions of years before we got here. That's the beauty of fossil fuels - as far as we're concerned it's "free" energy. All we have to do is get it out of the ground. But as it runs out nothing else will even come close to replacing it.

Petroleum based products are used for all those things now because no alcohol fuel exists. But once you prime the pump, couldn't some of those processes be switched to use some of the very fuel being produced? I know some things in the world will still be based on petroleum products, but the worst consumer of oil is probably combustion engines. The fertilizers and such that we use on commercial crops for human consumption might not be needed in such quantities when you are talking about producing something that is going to be distilled into non-human consumable fuel. Would you have to give the same degree of care to a crop that was going to be used to produce fuel for moving cars as you would a crop that somebody was going to eat? I guess what I'm asking is, if the machines that make gasoline now currently run on gasoline, why couldn't machines that make alcohol fuels run off alcohol? And the government could stop subsidising farmers not to cultivate their excess land and that excess crop could be put to use producing fuel instead. I'm not saying stop using oil products for everything but take the thing that consumes a vast majority of it and causes the most pollution and change that.

Using alcohol to power the machines wouldn't sove the problem - because it takes more energy to make the alcohol than you can get out of it. Fossil fuels yield many times more energy than what is required to extract and refine them. We don't have to "make" fossil fuels - all we do is harvest them. The energy comes from millions of years of decayed organic matter.

 

[Changlinn]

A Couple points, solar is actually an answer, but at present the cells requre oil to make. There is a house here in Sydney that runs entirely on solar(there roof is covered with panels), on grid, meaning they put power back into the grid during the day, and take it out at night, they actually make about $50/year this way. Combine this with a car that can be recharged, I don't think electric cars are there, but look at the MDI Air-car, 4 hour recharge, that would be able to be recharged in this method, with probably no cost at all on your elctric bill.
This house btw is a townhouse it has a very small amount of roof space that is covered by panels, this will obviously work better in houses with more roof space, and with newer technology solar panels, there are ones coming out soon that collect more energy, and are cheaper to produce and use less silicon.
As for growing our fuel for cars, and the oil shortage, it is not due to reserves in the ground, they may actually be increasing, new somone who was doing geology at uni, and they found small amounts of crude oil in a 150year old grave, right conditions, makes oil a lot quicker than we may think. The oil shortage is due to demand exceeding supply, read an economic article about how demand will exceed ability to supply within 2 years, increasing the price is suppost to reduce the demand but it isn't working. So back to growing our fuel, peanut oil, turpentine trees etc, to meet current (as of 2004) oil demand we would need to grow this stuff on every available peice of agriculturally available land, just to meet current use...
The only way around all of this is for people to take personal responsibility for their energy needs, here in Australia, specifically NSW we have water shortages every few years due to el-nino, and drought, now by law in some area's all new houses need to have a water tank, filter it and use it instead of town water for most things I say, same goes for electricity.

 

[Changlinn]

Another point on the Alcohol fueled cars, Ethanol/Methanol is already used here in Australia at some petrol stations as it is cheaper than petrol, they are only allowed to put in a max of 20% however, but this supposedly has no adverse effects on the cars, and it is all grown locally here. There are petrol stations that pride themselves on not using these additives of course, but when I see 20c difference per litre and I have read the research that postulates ethanol/methanol may be better for your car, I go there.

 

[Calin]

Alcohol generation is not such an expensive proposition, considering alcohol is the fuel used in most of the Brasil. I know some countries will choose more expensive internal produced fuels than cheaper imported ones, but the price difference can not be so big for the choice to be economic

 

[Changlinn]

Calin - But at our current consumption of crude oil means that every peice of farmable would need to be used to grow the plants to fuel our cars, meaning we would have no where to live and no food to eat, we have to find something else...

 

[Calin]

This can supplement the fuels production from other sources. It might be economical also - just that it is a partial solution.

 

[irwincur]

Problem with Ethanol and Methanol fueled cars. The product is sold at a loss. Farmers make money through large government subsidies. It is not a less expensive or more available resource at all. The US sells Ethanol for vehicles at something like a $2 billion loss every year, offset purely by grants to keep farmers in business.

It is pretty much welfare for farmers that cannot compete - not a serious solution to our transportation needs.

 

[FiberoN]

Doesn't matter how much we have left...just stop using it..

 

[Sea Shadow]

Originally posted by: Changlinn
A Couple points, solar is actually an answer, but at present the cells requre oil to make. There is a house here in Sydney that runs entirely on solar(there roof is covered with panels), on grid, meaning they put power back into the grid during the day, and take it out at night, they actually make about $50/year this way. Combine this with a car that can be recharged, I don't think electric cars are there, but look at the MDI Air-car, 4 hour recharge, that would be able to be recharged in this method, with probably no cost at all on your elctric bill.
This house btw is a townhouse it has a very small amount of roof space that is covered by panels, this will obviously work better in houses with more roof space, and with newer technology solar panels, there are ones coming out soon that collect more energy, and are cheaper to produce and use less silicon.
As for growing our fuel for cars, and the oil shortage, it is not due to reserves in the ground, they may actually be increasing, new somone who was doing geology at uni, and they found small amounts of crude oil in a 150year old grave, right conditions, makes oil a lot quicker than we may think. The oil shortage is due to demand exceeding supply, read an economic article about how demand will exceed ability to supply within 2 years, increasing the price is suppost to reduce the demand but it isn't working. So back to growing our fuel, peanut oil, turpentine trees etc, to meet current (as of 2004) oil demand we would need to grow this stuff on every available peice of agriculturally available land, just to meet current use...
The only way around all of this is for people to take personal responsibility for their energy needs, here in Australia, specifically NSW we have water shortages every few years due to el-nino, and drought, now by law in some area's all new houses need to have a water tank, filter it and use it instead of town water for most things I say, same goes for electricity.

I can see how it is feasible but it would cost a fortune. I know it probably won't happen but, just imagine how much energy could be saved if EVERYONE had solar panels for roofing. During the day the draw from the grid would be little or none during the day and, during the night you could get your supply from the power plants.

If that house in Australia is actually MAKING $50 a year that means it is putting more energy into the grid than it is taking out. If everyone had solar panels providing energy during the day there would be such an excess during the day that there would be virtually no energy consumption from the power plants because all the excess could be shipped to businesses that wouldn't be able to provide enough energy for themselfs. Also if there was any leftover during the day (or instead of sending the power to businesses) they could route it to a hydrogen fuel station. Just use the power to split water into 2H2 and 02. (I know I have seen prototype solar hyrdogen fuel stations in California). If so all you would need to do to power a local community is a power plant to supply power during the night and rainy days. Meanwhile the fuel stations could also be powered off a combo of solar/power from the grid. Then if you collected the rainwater (and cleaned it up if you lived in a heavily polluted area) you could use that to supply the majority of the water to the community. That would reduce the consumption of fossil fuels and the strain on the water supply by a considerable ammount, not only would it ease up on the draw of electricity it would also help fuel the vehicles in the area.

Now I understand that such an idealistic community would require ENORMOUS funds and that there are several flaws in the idea. Not to mention that it will probably never exist, but if achieved it would help alot with the current situation.

 

[Howard]

Biomass fuels are feasible, because the energy efficiency is greater than 100% for many crops. Much, much higher for algae that can produce biodiesel.