There is no Engineer Shortage

[Infohawk]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...eer-shortage/2011/09/01/gIQADpmpuJ_story.html

Salaries are the best indicator of shortages. In most engineering professions, salaries have not increased more than inflation over the past two decades. But in some specialized fields of software engineering in Silicon Valley and in professions such as petroleum engineering, there have been huge spikes. The short answer is that there are shortages in specific fields and in specific regions, but not overall. Graduating more of the wrong types of engineers is likely to increase unemployment rather than create jobs.

Some of the stooges on this board too often repeat that we just need to graduate more engineers the US economy would improve. As this Duke professor points out, if there really was a shortage people wouldn't be going into management over engineering. There are some random growth areas but there are always going to be those kinds of discrepancies in a market economy. In another decade that market could easily be saturated.

As a result, nearly 54 percent of our PhDs in engineering and 42 percent of our master’s degrees go to foreign nationals. So, even if we increase U.S. university enrollments, the majority of these students will benefit our global competitors.

I don't care if they pay full tuition. We need to educate Americans before foreigners. Many of these foreigners aren't even staying in the US anymore.

Instead of trying to compete with India and China on their graduation numbers, let’s focus, instead, on our core strength: Our engineers can think outside the box. Unlike the graduates of Chinese and Indian universities, U.S.-educated engineers learn a broad variety of skills, including strong interpersonal skills and an understanding of customers and markets — and, most importantly, they can innovate.

I'd like to think he's right here but I think part of this is wishful thinking. And I think the advantages we have in terms of creativity are being thrown away by most schools' preferences for cookie-cutter test takers. I'm guessing Einstein didn't have a tiger mom telling him he had to become an engineer when he was little. Like many great Western scientists a free society allowed him to choose a field he was particularly adept in. These days if you aren't willing to compete with desperate third-worlders in rote and repetitive mathematics before you even get admitted to a pHd program, the same opportunities might not be available to you.

 

[sunzt]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...eer-shortage/2011/09/01/gIQADpmpuJ_story.htmlI don't care if they pay full tuition. We need to educate Americans before foreigners. Many of these foreigners aren't even staying in the US anymore.

Maybe if employers had more visas to go around we can keep the best and brightest in the US...

 

[EagleKeeper]

Engineering is cyclical in each of the disciplines.

And with many; you need 2-3 years of retraining to cross over and be good enough to command anything but a noob salary.

 

[piasabird]

The same idiots in DC that complain about poor education and lack of engineering students turn around and allow as many as possible foreigh h1b visas to hire people from overseas. It is oxy-moronic to educate more engineering students if we keep importing people from overseas. This causes universities from have this kind of curriculum. Then if they have the curriculum for engineering most of their students are chinese.

 

[busydude]

I don't care if they pay full tuition. We need to educate Americans before foreigners.

This is what most of the people in these forums are worried about. I feel conflicted when I see my friends(not US citizens) getting jobs rather easily[in IT] and at the same time.. reading about the job market of the US and it's citizens.

I am not a US citizen.. yet I can certainly sympathize with everyone who are worried about the lack of American engineers. You also have to consider that people are more willing to work for a little less than American counterparts just to stay in the US.

There should be more Americans studying science and engineering.. I think the attitude of the general population has changed a lot and people tend to shy away from these fields.

 

[First]

Yawn xenophobia.

 

[Infohawk]

I think the attitude of the general population has changed a lot and people tend to shy away from these fields.

Because it's relatively underpaid do to foreign undercutting...

 

[RabidMongoose]

Yawn xenophobia.

What else can you expect from the leader of the white supremacist gang here?

It would be great if we could educate more Americans in certain disciplines, but the reality is that many Americans have a European-centric view and want to study things like "14th century Norwegian literature about pigeons from authors with a first name of Bjorn" instead of something more useful. Many white supremacists here like to think that there is a unique capability in Americans (particularly those of European descent) that makes them more capable of innovating. But there was a time when Americans weren't thought of as great innovators. Times change and soon China and India will innovate at a far greater rate than the US as long as Americans continue to cling to European-centric views.

 

[First]

What else can you expect from the leader of the white supremacist gang here?

It would be great if we could educate more Americans in certain disciplines, but the reality is that many Americans have a European-centric view and want to study things like "14th century Norwegian literature about pigeons from authors with a first name of Bjorn" instead of something more useful. Many white supremacists here like to think that there is a unique capability in Americans (particularly those of European descent) that makes them more capable of innovating. But there was a time when Americans weren't thought of as great innovators. Times change and soon China and India will innovate at a far greater rate than the US as long as Americans continue to cling to European-centric views.

I don't think it's the notion of clinging to European values, though, as with any culture, there are probably "bad habits" related to that culture, but that's really difficult to quantify obviously. I think it's the notion that "foreigners" aren't Americans. It's funny because we've been importing them since 76 (that's 1776) and yet we still have people that can't learn from history. We're a country of immigrants, it's a fact. Immigrants become Americans, and the notion that they leave is just pure nonsense, happens to a small minority. And even if they eventually left, how is that bad again exactly? Then again, fear always drives people to make irrational conclusions about reality.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

What else can you expect from the leader of the white supremacist gang here?

It would be great if we could educate more Americans in certain disciplines, but the reality is that many Americans have a European-centric view and want to study things like "14th century Norwegian literature about pigeons from authors with a first name of Bjorn" instead of something more useful. Many white supremacists here like to think that there is a unique capability in Americans (particularly those of European descent) that makes them more capable of innovating. But there was a time when Americans weren't thought of as great innovators. Times change and soon China and India will innovate at a far greater rate than the US as long as Americans continue to cling to European-centric views.

China and India don't innovate much at all. The belief that Americans and Europeans are better at science and innovation isn't racism. It's the observation of many people who have business all over the world. What's the most recent significant innovation that came from China?

 

[RabidMongoose]

I don't think it's the notion of clinging to European values, though, as with any culture, there are probably "bad habits" related to that culture, but that's really difficult to quantify obviously. I think it's the notion that "foreigners" aren't Americans. It's funny because we've been importing them since 76 (that's 1776) and yet we still have people that can't learn from history. We're a country of immigrants, it's a fact. Immigrants become Americans, and the notion that they leave is just pure nonsense, happens to a small minority. And even if they eventually left, how is that bad again exactly? Then again, fear always drives people to make irrational conclusions about reality.

Well, a lot of Americans have who generational roots in the US have become de-assimilated from American society. We see this with many people such as InfoHawk/Baasha, where their fear of immigration has made them de-assimilate. I think that we've now come to a point where many immigrants are now 'more' American or more assimilated into American society than many Americans with generational roots.

 

[RabidMongoose]

China and India don't innovate much at all. The belief that Americans and Europeans are better at science and innovation isn't racism. It's the observation of many people who have business all over the world. What's the most recent significant innovation that came from China?

There was a time when Americans didn't innovate much either. Things change. China and India will innovate more as they become more wealthy. I wouldn't be surprised if they already innovate more or will soon innovate more than Europe, but that's not really saying much.

China and India value science and technology, their people are hungry for it. Unfortunately, many Americans value things like '16th Century Danish Architecture of Peasant Homes that are capable of housing three pigs and a donkey' instead of scientific and technological disciplines because they are too Euro-centric. Hell, 50% of silicon valley startups have at least one immigrant co-founder. I wouldn't be surprised if Chinese or Indian immigrants were at the top of the list of that 50%. At the rate that things are going in the US, those people will go back and innovate wherever they came from and leave the US with its Euro-centric views and desire to study 'Ancient Teachings of Catholic Priests of the 17th Century based in Spain." I don't think there's much innovation in something like that.

 

[PingSpike]

The "shortage" is just made up bullshit to justify the creation of policies designed to drive down wages in one of the few decent paying fields left. The article merely points out the obvious, there is no shortage because the wages aren't skyrocketing. Policy makers would have you believe that companies hiring the engineers have 0% profit and would have to shut there doors tomorrow if faced with the ghastly proposition of offering a higher wage to get talent.

You never hear them asking to give imported engineers or scientists real visas that didn't lock them into indentured servitude because then they could demand equal wages. Really they want to use them as slave labor that they can deport after they're burned out with the nice side effect of holding down wage growth of home grown talent.

 

[bfdd]

i fail to see the xenophobia in Infohawks post.

 

[Fenixgoon]

This is what most of the people in these forums are worried about. I feel conflicted when I see my friends(not US citizens) getting jobs rather easily[in IT] and at the same time.. reading about the job market of the US and it's citizens.

I am not a US citizen.. yet I can certainly sympathize with everyone who are worried about the lack of American engineers. You also have to consider that people are more willing to work for a little less than American counterparts just to stay in the US.

There should be more Americans studying science and engineering.. I think the attitude of the general population has changed a lot and people tend to shy away from these fields.

i have no issue with educating foreigners. i think it's absolutely stupid to educate them, let them go back to their home country, and allow a large number of unskilled foreigners to come in.

if anything, we should be trying to keep the foreigners in graduate level engineering and make them citizens. plenty of people would love to stay here, i have no doubt.

 

[sm625]

Some of the stooges on this board too often repeat that we just need to graduate more engineers the US economy would improve. A

What we need to do is start graduating people who create a demand for more engineers. Watching family guy and making fart jokes does not create much demand for engineers.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

What else can you expect from the leader of the white supremacist gang here?

It would be great if we could educate more Americans in certain disciplines, but the reality is that many Americans have a European-centric view and want to study things like "14th century Norwegian literature about pigeons from authors with a first name of Bjorn" instead of something more useful.

Are you claiming that Americans won't work hard and study hard in order to enter lucrative high paying fields, such as fields where there are shortages of people?

If so, how do you explain the spectacle of undergraduates desperately busting their asses to gain admission to allopathic medical schools (where, upon graduation from their residencies, they are essentially guaranteed six figure salaries, social status, and job security)?

The evidence seems to suggest that if Americans believe a field is lucrative and has a demand for workers that they'll train to enter it.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Yawn xenophobia.

How is a concern about whether or not good knowledge-based jobs created by the American economy are being filled by Americans "Xenophobia" at a time when we have tens of millions of Americans who are unemployed or underemployed?

Is it possible, could it be possible, that much of the concern about foreign outsourcing, work visas, and mass immigration is not caveman mentality xenophobia but rather a legitimate, rational, non-racist concern about economic issues?

 

[xj0hnx]

How is a concern about whether or not good knowledge-based jobs created by the American economy are being filled by Americans "Xenophobia" at a time when we have tens of millions of Americans who are unemployed or underemployed?

Is it possible, could it be possible, that much of the concern about foreign outsourcing, work visas, and mass immigration is not caveman mentality xenophobia but rather a legitimate, rational, non-racist concern about economic issues?

Because to leftist partisan hacks any time someone talks ill of anyone that isn't white, no matter how legitimate, they are a "racist", or "xenophobe". The race card is their favorite, and they keep multiples of it in their deck.

 

[JD50]

Yawn xenophobia.

Yawn kneejerk.

 

[Magusigne]

This is what most of the people in these forums are worried about. I feel conflicted when I see my friends(not US citizens) getting jobs rather easily[in IT] and at the same time.. reading about the job market of the US and it's citizens.

I am not a US citizen.. yet I can certainly sympathize with everyone who are worried about the lack of American engineers. You also have to consider that people are more willing to work for a little less than American counterparts just to stay in the US.

There should be more Americans studying science and engineering.. I think the attitude of the general population has changed a lot and people tend to shy away from these fields.

Post-Doc Biophysics= 42k
B.A Buisiness Human Resource... starting salary 38-46k

Might be a reason why some people shy away from science;p

 

[Chaosblade02]

Post-Doc Biophysics= 42k
B.A Buisiness Human Resource... starting salary 38-46k

Might be a reason why some people shy away from science;p

I'm a machinist/tool and die maker and I make around $45k, or $23/hour and get overtime pay on top of that. Sucks to be them. Just got a trade school degree about about 6 years experience.

 

[Infohawk]

I don't think it's the notion of clinging to European values, though, as with any culture, there are probably "bad habits" related to that culture, but that's really difficult to quantify obviously. I think it's the notion that "foreigners" aren't Americans. It's funny because we've been importing them since 76 (that's 1776) and yet we still have people that can't learn from history. We're a country of immigrants, it's a fact. Immigrants become Americans, and the notion that they leave is just pure nonsense, happens to a small minority. And even if they eventually left, how is that bad again exactly? Then again, fear always drives people to make irrational conclusions about reality.

In thread after thread you just attack motives that you can't prove instead of actually addressing arguments. It's pathetic especially when coupled with your smug attitude. If you were actually smart you'd understand that its fallacious to attack motives.

(PS are you the one with the British roommate?)

 

[JS80]

Post-Doc Biophysics= 42k
B.A Buisiness Human Resource... starting salary 38-46k

Might be a reason why some people shy away from science;p

So you're saying Post-doc biophysics grads are overpaid?

 

[senseamp]

There is always an engineer shortage. It's not going to hurt anyone to learn the engineer way of thinking, even if they don't go into engineering as a job.