[TheReg] Intel Management Engine: Is this why we have seen slower speed growth?

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Azuma Hazuki

Golden Member
Jun 18, 2012
1,532
866
131
Or maybe you're greedy for expecting corporations to give you something for free.

Listen buddy, I'm a couple of hundred dollars above the threshold for welfare, work full time, and have given about 40% of my net income--net, not gross!--in 2015 to the anti-human-trafficking cause I do volunteer work for. I routinely eat out of garbage cans at the tail end of paychecks and have more holes than shoe in my shoes. I was fortunate enough to snag a Thinkpad T500 for cheap on Craigslist a few years ago and it's all I've got, so long as we're talking computers.

Don't you dare call me greedy. You have no idea, NONE, of who I am what I do.
 

Deders

Platinum Member
Oct 14, 2012
2,401
1
91
These small IPC gains aren't recent. Here are where the large IPC gains happened:

1) 8086 to 80286
2) 80286 to 80386
3) 80386 to 80486
4) 80486 to Pentium
5) Pentium to Pentium Pro

IPC increases since Pentium Pro have been fairly small. So essentially we've had 20 years of small IPC gains.

Pentium 4 to Core2
Core 2 to Nehalem
Nehalem to Sandy bridge

All pretty big IPC increases.

Performance doesn't always come from IPC*MHz, it can be dependent on the kind of code used. For instance having more SIMD paths is partly what set Sandy bridge processors apart from Nehalem. A specific example of this is comparing my old i5-750 to an Ivy bridge i5 system I built for my brother. Using the same model Geforce 670 in both, PhysX performance in Arkham City was close to double using the ivy Bridge chip, and the i5-750 was clocked 400MHz higher.

I think the reason we are seeing significantly better performance in games like GTAV with Skylake compared to Haswell is because games like these can make better use of the CPU's registers and resources than older less demanding games.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
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Pentium 4 to Core 2 doesn't really count.

Banias, Merom, Yonah etc instead.

Nehalem to Sandy bridge wasn't that big. ~10%.
 
Mar 10, 2006
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Listen buddy, I'm a couple of hundred dollars above the threshold for welfare, work full time, and have given about 40% of my net income--net, not gross!--in 2015 to the anti-human-trafficking cause I do volunteer work for. I routinely eat out of garbage cans at the tail end of paychecks and have more holes than shoe in my shoes. I was fortunate enough to snag a Thinkpad T500 for cheap on Craigslist a few years ago and it's all I've got, so long as we're talking computers.

Don't you dare call me greedy. You have no idea, NONE, of who I am what I do.

Not to pry too much, but you may want to reconsider your capital allocation strategy if you can't afford the bare necessities of life under your current one.
 

Deders

Platinum Member
Oct 14, 2012
2,401
1
91
Nehalem to Sandy bridge wasn't that big. ~10%.

I was under the impression that the overall performance increase was almost as big a jump as Core2 to Nehalem, 20-30% depending on the task. At least that's the impression I got from magazines and forum users. The higher clockspeeds probably accounted for some of this I guess.

Not to pry too much, but you may want to reconsider your capital allocation strategy if you can't afford the bare necessities of life under your current one.

Don't be silly, it would be like depriving Glotis from driving (or changing oil and adjust timing belts if no driving jobs are open)
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
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I was under the impression that the overall performance increase was almost as big a jump as Core2 to Nehalem, 20-30% depending on the task. At least that's the impression I got from magazines and forum users. The higher clockspeeds probably accounted for some of this I guess.

Yes, clock speed tends the mess up the IPC part. However Nelahem/Westmere to Sandy Bridge was still the second biggest IPC leap since Pentium to Pentium Pro or so. Even tho it was "only" 10% and done over 2 uarchs instead of 1. (Westmere was a flat shrink).

Dothan->Yonah->Conroe was for example the usual 5-6% or so. Penryn adding 2% before the leap from Penryn to Nehalem yielding 12% as the biggest leap since Pentium Pro. But again we can argue that Penryn was lackbuster in the first place like Westmere.
 
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Fjodor2001

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2010
3,953
416
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Nehalem to Sandy bridge wasn't that big. ~10%.
Sandy Bridge brought 4 cores to mainstream desktop CPUs (it was the first one with 4 cores and iGPU). Core count should be included as well (in addition to IPC and frequency) when comparing CPU performance.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
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Sandy Bridge brought 4 cores to mainstream desktop CPUs (it was the first one with 4 cores and iGPU). Core count should be included as well (in addition to IPC and frequency) when comparing CPU performance.

Lynnfield and Core 2 variants gave mainstream quads.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
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Here. With the ME running under the OS, it has to be slowing the OS down. Maybe the growth in performance has gone partly to this.

Some other interesting info found in the above article:

A nightmare scenario is malware managing to store secrets hidden away from the user in a persistent manner, so wiping the hard disk won't get rid of it. One way to do this is to smuggle it into flash storage on the motherboard chipset, storage reserved for firmware code.

“Imagine I have malware which might only be stealing my disk encryption key,” said Rutkowska, “and it can store it somewhere on the disk or on SPI Flash, or maybe on the Wi-Fi firmware, or maybe on the embedded controller firmware.”

If this were to happen, an attacker who seized the machine could instruct the hidden malware to unlock the computer and give up the swiped key to decrypt the data. “Game is over,” said Rutkowska.

There is a means of changing that game, however: a stateless laptop.

Rutkowska explained the core thesis of her December paper was to make it a requirement for laptop hardware to be stateless; that is, lacking any persistent storage: "This includes it having no firmware-carrying flash memory chips. All the state is to be kept on an external, trusted device. This trusted device is envisioned to be of a small USB stick or SD card form factor."

This external device was dubbed “trusted stick” by Rutkowska, “for lack of a more sexy name.” It is where the firmware, platform configurations, and the system and user partitions would be held in “a simple FPGA implemented device."

As such, said Rutkowska, “even if malware found a weakness in the chipset, allowing it to reflash the BIOS — and we have seen plenty of such attacks in recent years — it would not be able to succeed.”

However, Rutkowska's December paper noted it was unclear if Intel ME “would be happy when being put into an environment where the SPI flash it gets access to is externally forced to be read-only.”

This clean separation of state-carrying vs. stateless silicon is, however, only one of the requirements, itself not enough to address many of the problems discussed in the [October paper]. There are a number of additional requirements: for the endpoint (laptop) hardware, for the trusted “stick”, and for the host OS.



Rutkowska said the creation of a stateless laptop might not even be that difficult. The most simple implementation, as displayed above, simply removes the SPI Flash and places it on the trusted stick, alongside removing the disk, and ensuring the discrete devices are using one-time programmable memory instead of flash. More complicated versions were suggested, which Reg readers may find in the recording of the talk.

It is upsetting that some types of malware cannot be removed by reinstalling the Operating system. So this idea sounds really interesting.

I wonder how easy it would be to implement on Intel? On AMD?
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,600
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And this, among many other reasons, is why I have said the cardinal human sin is greed, for a very long time now...

This, IMO, is a fundamental truth to our genome. I wouldnt call it a sin though.
Power corrupts and wealth & power is built on the backs of others. So be it.

And WTF is this ME business, call me ignorant, I had no idea about this *.
Is it possible to fuse/cut/drill that suckers into oblivion? (whithout destroying the rest of the chip that is).
 
Mar 10, 2006
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It was a clarification, to make it clear that Sandy Bridge was being compared to the Clarkdale predecessor (which also has iGPU).

Downright silly to say that SNB 4c was the successor to Clarkdale. They did not sell for anywhere close to the same prices at their respective launches.
 

Deders

Platinum Member
Oct 14, 2012
2,401
1
91
This, IMO, is a fundamental truth to our genome. I wouldnt call it a sin though.
Power corrupts and wealth & power is built on the backs of others. So be it.

Don't want to derail the thread, but we don't have to readily accept this as the status quo. It's our world too.
 

ehume

Golden Member
Nov 6, 2009
1,511
73
91
Some other interesting info found in the above article:



It is upsetting that some types of malware cannot be removed by reinstalling the Operating system. So this idea sounds really interesting.

I wonder how easy it would be to implement on Intel? On AMD?

Interesting. Thanks for highlighting it. Good questions, too. Would we need their cooperation? And if the IME is in the PCH, could an alternative PCH be burned/made?
 

Fjodor2001

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2010
3,953
416
126
Downright silly to say that SNB 4c was the successor to Clarkdale. They did not sell for anywhere close to the same prices at their respective launches.

Clarkdale 670: $305
Sandy Bridge 2600: $287

And that is despite SNB being 4 cores and much larger die.

But it's not the price that determines predecessor and successor, but the architecture, chip design and on-chip features (e.g. iGPU).

What would you say the successor to Clarkdale is (if not Sandy Bridge)? And why?
 
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Deders

Platinum Member
Oct 14, 2012
2,401
1
91
Pentium 4 -> Core Solo -> Core Duo -> Core 2 Duo

IPC would only really count per core, so P4 to Core to Core2.

From what I remember Athlon64 was a big increase over both P4 and core, and Core2 was a big increase again.
 

Rakehellion

Lifer
Jan 15, 2013
12,182
35
91
Listen buddy, I'm a couple of hundred dollars above the threshold for welfare, work full time, and have given about 40% of my net income--net, not gross!--in 2015 to the anti-human-trafficking cause I do volunteer work for. I routinely eat out of garbage cans at the tail end of paychecks and have more holes than shoe in my shoes. I was fortunate enough to snag a Thinkpad T500 for cheap on Craigslist a few years ago and it's all I've got, so long as we're talking computers.

Don't you dare call me greedy. You have no idea, NONE, of who I am what I do.

Apparently your Thinkpad isn't enough because you still expect Intel to overclock your chip by a few more percent even though the rest of the market doesn't want it. Greedy.
 
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