Thermalright Ultima 90 is out :)

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mjrtoo

Member
Jul 25, 2007
120
0
0
Yes, I have this problem with mine as well, with my Gigabyte GA-N680SLI-DQ6 motherboard. I thought perhaps it was from my lapping of the unit, but sounds like it's a problem....

I have not found a way to correct this issue yet, have you?
 

nowise

Junior Member
Aug 30, 2007
8
0
0
Unfortunately I have not found a way to fix it. I disassembled the entire unit and reassembled making sure every screw was hand tight and that I followed the instructions to the mark, yet I still cannot get it to make a solid connection. My temperatures are the same as using my stock HSF: 45-50 core, 35-40 CPU and this is at idle.

I emailed Thermalright's support on Monday and have yet to receive a reply. My motherboard is a Biostar Tforce P965. I will post here if I receive a response.
 

ty1er

Senior member
May 14, 2004
807
0
0
I wonder if everyone is having this problem with the HS? Design fault or some QC issuse?
 

nowise

Junior Member
Aug 30, 2007
8
0
0
Just my opinion but it seems like if the little brackets that the spring screws screw into were hollow at the bottom, or if there was more space to screw them down, it would work better. As it stands now, there is only so much room to screw down the spring screws that smash the HS to the processor before I run out of room and the screws hit the bottom of the bracket.

Still no response from Thermalright. I will email them again and CC their support2 email address at EOD today if still no response.
 

mjrtoo

Member
Jul 25, 2007
120
0
0
Well, the reviewer for anand didn't seem to mention anything like that happening in their tests. I did get a reply from Thermalright about my question....

MY INITIAL QUESTION...
'I have recently installed the Ultima 90 on my Q6600 processor using the Gigabyte GA-680SLI-DQ6 motherboard (after removing the gigabyte heat pipe of course). I'm having an issue with the device not seating tightly against the processor. When it's installed there is still 'space' between the pillars and the mobo bottom but the screws have bottomed out. Also, when the spring loaded screws are tightened down IE bottomed out, the device can still spin on the processor, it is not held tightly against the processor.

Any ideas?'

THERMALRIGHT REPLY...
'There is some space between MB and backplate, when the screws are tighten.
It is normal, and it is made for disperse the pressure.
It can protect MB from bended
Besides, the pressure of heatsink is under intel rules.
It is safe and excellent in cooling.
How is the performance of Ultima 90?'

MY REPLY...
'The idle temps seem fine, in the 41-45c range, but the loaded temps (all four cores) is in the 58-67c range, which seems really hot to me. I am running a 120mm fan on the Ultima as well. When under full load, the heat pipes are not even all that warm, and the fins are cool to the touch.
Oh another thing, do you think that lapping the Ultima may actually hurt performance rather than help? This Ultima was lapped from where I purchased it...

THERMALRIGHT REPLY...
'It is just a joke about lapping the base of heatsinks.
If the flat base is more efficient for transferring the heat, we must do it.
It is easy for Thermalright.
After lapping, it is out of warranty.'

MY REPLY...
'I understand that, but do you think it would affect the sink in a negative way?'

THERMALRIGHT REPLY...
'I think after lapping, the performance of heatsink is worse.'

I'm not sure what to think about it. I removed the unit again to remount and did notice that there were some dark scratches on the outside of the base of the heatsink. It looks like perhaps the CPU mounting method, the part that presses down the chip, is keeping the heat sink from making direct/even contact on the CPU. It's hard to say what the problem is, but I'm pretty sure it's installed correctly, it's not freakin' rocket science or anything. The only difference between the anand review and my system is that I'm using a Core 2 Quad and there was a Core 2 Duo, maybe the temp results are just that much higher for a Quad, but I really doubt it...

Any other tips or ideas are certainly welcome, I'm tempted to buy another one without lapping just for a test, but hate to just toss money away. Perhaps I should just move to water right now, but that seems a waste for someone who doesn't really overclock all that much...








 

VinDSL

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2006
4,869
1
81
www.lenon.com
Originally posted by: mjrtoo

THERMALRIGHT REPLY...
'It is just a joke about lapping the base of heatsinks.
If the flat base is more efficient for transferring the heat, we must do it.
It is easy for Thermalright.
After lapping, it is out of warranty.'

MY REPLY...
'I understand that, but do you think it would affect the sink in a negative way?'

THERMALRIGHT REPLY...
'I think after lapping, the performance of heatsink is worse.'

I'm not sure what to think about it...

Any other tips or ideas are certainly welcome.
Um...

Not trolling - I feel your pain - but...

Get off the Thermalwrong merry-go-round and buy a Tuniq (as suggested three pages back)!
 

ty1er

Senior member
May 14, 2004
807
0
0
Originally posted by: mjrtoo
Well, the reviewer for anand didn't seem to mention anything like that happening in their tests. I did get a reply from Thermalright about my question....

The ultima90 that AT reviewed was mounted using the older "sissor" mount design, the same bracket that is used on the Ultra120extreme. The retail model is different then what was reviewed.


Here is the quote from the AT review:

IMPORTANT: The test kit is a pre-production model. The Ultima-90 is now for sale and performance results have been confirmed with a production Ultima-90 cooler. The final production kit contains mounting parts that are different from the pre-production package. Please check current installation instructions at the Thermalright website for information on the contents of the shipping Ultima-90 kit.
 

nowise

Junior Member
Aug 30, 2007
8
0
0
I emailed support again, still no reply. The motherboard compatibility on the product page states "All LGA775" so I expected this to work without these problems. I will be expecting a refund from Thermalright if they cannot remedy this situation with their bad English. I am assuming that trying to get a refund will be like pulling teeth...
 

VinDSL

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2006
4,869
1
81
www.lenon.com
Originally posted by: nowise
Buyers beware.
Heh! Prepare yourself!

You don't know what you're dealing with here... trying to warn Thermalwrong fanboiz!

"Battered woman syndrome describes a pattern of psychological and behavioral symptoms found in women living in battering relationships."

There are four general characteristics of the syndrome:

1. The woman believes that it was her fault.
2. The woman has an inability to place the responsibility elsewhere.
3. The woman fears for her life and/or her children's lives.
4. The woman has an irrational belief that the abuser is omnipresent and omniscient.]

Kapeesh?
 

nowise

Junior Member
Aug 30, 2007
8
0
0
Yeah, the only reason I bought the thing was because of the good review on this site and because I have a nice 120mm fan sitting around. Maybe some sucker on ebay will want to take this off my hands.
 

mjrtoo

Member
Jul 25, 2007
120
0
0
I bought it because the Tuniq or other taller and wider sinks won't fit in my case, and all the reviews I read were nice. Vin, send my your tuniq so I can test it before I lay out the cash....

 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
20,882
3,230
126
well i bought one for my friend to slap on the X3210 i loaned her.

It doesnt perform as great as a ultra120. Also it will get raped hardcore by a watersetup using a MCR120/ApogeeGTX/DDC-2 setup.

But it does perform fairly well compared to the other air sinks i had laying around.

If space permits, i suggest you look at the bigger sister, the ultra120.
 

mjrtoo

Member
Jul 25, 2007
120
0
0
How was the mount on yours aigo? Was it firm, or did it swivel around even after it was tightened all the way?

Also, do you remember what the temps were?
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
20,882
3,230
126
Originally posted by: mjrtoo
How was the mount on yours aigo? Was it firm, or did it swivel around even after it was tightened all the way?

Also, do you remember what the temps were?

Well they use a new retention system. Its not like the ultra120 system. This thing makes you install the mounts directly first. Then you drop the sink ontop, and screw it on. The mount felt fairly firm.

As for the cooling. Load temps are as follows.

FSB 400 x 8 3.2ghz
Vcore: 1.42V

Load temps:

T120 Extreme: 63C across all 4 cores with deltas of 2-3 on each core varying.
Ultima90: 67C with same deltas.
Water: 61-62C on cpu loop only with a 120x1 radiator. <--- which is why i recomend people running 120x2 instead.
 

mjrtoo

Member
Jul 25, 2007
120
0
0
Hmmm...so you think running my Q6600 stock with only overclock of memory 59-66c on the 4 cores during 100% load is alright?
 

VinDSL

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2006
4,869
1
81
www.lenon.com
Originally posted by: mjrtoo
I bought it because the Tuniq or other taller and wider sinks won't fit in my case...

Originally posted by: aigomorla
well i bought one for my friend to slap on the X3210 i loaned her...

It doesnt perform as great as a ultra120...

If space permits, i suggest you look at the bigger sister, the ultra120.
If I may digress... on size...

Here are my rear speakers

One thing I learned a long time ago - size DOES matter! Thermalwrong cannot change the laws of physics...

Big is better when it comes to coolers (and speakers)!

There is NO way that a 90mm cooler is going outperform an 120mm equivelent!

Unfortunately, ppl have taken the bait - so be it. It's NOT like you weren't warned!

Have fun in the frying pan!
 

nowise

Junior Member
Aug 30, 2007
8
0
0
Live and learn. I certainly will not be buying Thermalright for any of my future builds but I cannot afford to just buy something different so I will make due.
 

mjrtoo

Member
Jul 25, 2007
120
0
0
Originally posted by: VinDSL
Originally posted by: mjrtoo
I bought it because the Tuniq or other taller and wider sinks won't fit in my case...

Originally posted by: aigomorla
well i bought one for my friend to slap on the X3210 i loaned her...

It doesnt perform as great as a ultra120...

If space permits, i suggest you look at the bigger sister, the ultra120.
If I may digress... on size...

Here are my rear speakers

One thing I learned a long time ago - size DOES matter! Thermalwrong cannot change the laws of physics...

Big is better when it comes to coolers (and speakers)!

There is NO way that a 90mm cooler is going outperform an 120mm equivelent!

Unfortunately, ppl have taken the bait - so be it. It's NOT like you weren't warned!

Have fun in the frying pan!

I understand that the larger the sink the better the performance, but I'm not even getting close to the performance in the review...that's my issue. I'm alright with not having the ultimate cooler, and can sacrafice a few degrees centigrade...I just want to make sure that it's working within spec...

 

nowise

Junior Member
Aug 30, 2007
8
0
0
You know what I have noticed upon reading the review again... they measured ambient temperature at a chilly 20-22C. I'm not sure about you guys but my apartment never gets that cool... but I am a cheapskate with the A/C.
 

bretto

Junior Member
Aug 4, 2007
23
0
0
I don't know what is with all the complaints, but mine is working fine. You can turn it when it is installed, but not very easily. The temps are fine though maybe not as good as the 120 extreme, but I got it for it's smaller size so I am happy.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,785
1,500
126
Originally posted by: Eeyore69
. . . . .
Earlier in my career (I am 60 now) I primarily worked laying out printed circuit boards and designing the enclosures for them. Most of the companies I worked for were power supply manufactures that sold supplies for the larger computers of that time along with selling to medical companies and other industrial companies. In designing the enclosures I also had to choose and design (from standard extrusions) the necessary heatsinks. At that time the feeling was that the important characteristic of airflow was not the cfm but the linear speed across the fins. For any heatsink or extrusion that I wanted to buy there was always a chart of thermal resistance vs. airspeed. Anything above 600 ft/min was of no benefit so the smallest fan that provided ~600 ft/min was used; primarily because of the cost. And there was also the cost and size restriction tradeoff between fan/fanspeed and size of the heatsink. Of course, even back then there was the water and freon cooling methods but I never got into that. Now things have gone wild and are more innovative than my time.

I was about to place the motherboard into the case when I realized that I hadn't drilled holes in the motherboard mounting plate so that I could get at the P35 and ICH9 heatsink mounting pins. If the chips run too hot I will want to remove the heatsinks and apply a good thermal paste. To do that I need to get at the back of the motherboard so that I can squeeze the back of the pins to release them and the heatsinks. I had already nibbled out a rectangular opening in the plate just behind the processor backplate; just in case.

So tomorrow is the day I complete the assembly of my new system. Excited to get it together but worried it will have a problem starting up.

Later,

Eeyore

Hey. I read your post -- finally -- in response to mine. That's interesting, about CFM versus airspeed, but you'd think they'd be equivalent, or linearly related equivalents.

I seem to have been away from the forums too long, since I'm supposed to upgrade the "Heatsink Reviews" sticky.

I've been refining my ducting mod, experimenting with Lexan and the use of primer, silver and clear enamels on foam board. I should resurrect my "Motherboard Ducting" thread and add some pictures. For some reason, this Q6600 never ran cooler, even for dropping the clock-speed down from 3.2 to 3.0 Ghz. At that over-clock and room-ambient 74 to 76F, the peak Core (#1 -- always #1) temperature seems to be around 57C with Orthos.

I think I may almost be finished with this project, although the case panels deserve a second go-around for the paint-job.

But I'm digressing. I see where people are having some trouble with the ThermalRight Ultima 90, and need to read some more of these posts. Also, someone quotes a tech-rep -- possibly Asian -- whose English seems a bit strained to the limit. The people I got for tech-support were -- I believe -- located here in my home-town in So Cal.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,785
1,500
126
VinDSL -- aka VD -- is gonna love this, but from the posts on this thread, I feel comfortable with this assessment.

Companies go through ascendancies and declines. It can be associated with changes in personnel, or rapid hiring of personnel.

It may be that the Ultima 90 was designed as a little brother to the Ultra-120-X, just as the XP-90 and -90C was a remedy for XP-120 issues with some motherboards.

I see AigoMorla and some others have no problem mounting the sink, and this may be motherboard-specific.

The fellow at TR who provided the "tech-rep" response as quoted in an earlier post on this thread had some "King's English" issues, and seemed to lack experience with our problems here or how to deal with them.

On the matter of lapping and TR warranty, the TR reps to whom I spoke were never explicit about "why" lapping would void the warranty, except to say that the nickel-plating of the base and pipes aided in preserving the integrity of the solder-joints with the pipes.

They chose Nickel for the plating material because it is right next to Copper on the Galvanic Table of metals. Metals on the Galvanic Table that are widely separated from each other in their electrical conductivity features (at least, that's what I recall from reading up on Galvanic corrosion) -- tend to promote corrosion (on one metal or another) if put in contact with each other in an electrolytic solution. Metals that are close together on the galvanic table tend to have minimal corrosion under those circumstances.

Taken in conjunction with the remarks about the solder joints as made by TR personnel, this apparently drives their warranty policy.

I discussed this with SVC personnel prior to ordering a "custom-lapped" TR-Ultra-120-Xtreme, and we seemed to have immediate agreement in our speculations and conclusions. TR is afraid that removing the Nickel from even the bottom of the heatsink base will cause the rest of the Nickel to eventually peel away and compromise the heatpipe solder-joints.

If one were to worry about this, you should only need to put a thin layer of thermal epoxy on lapped copper surfaces that are exposed to the air and do not come into contact with the CPU heatspreader. But I cannot believe that the corrosion of copper in exposure to the air is bound to be that quick, or even likely, unless you have a house that is right on the beach, or run your computer in your yacht -- where the air has a high salt content.

The SVC tech-rep seemed to agree, and eagerly noted that SVC would warranty the product on the custom-lapped version that they ship.

But for the convex-cylindrical heatsink base, the issues of the mounting mechanisms going through revision after their product hits the market, one must conclude (a) the convex base design is a design-flaw bordering on silly, (b) for their innovative design record for performance only, they are in too much of a rush to get their products on the market and are not devoting enough attention to testing.

So -- even I, BonzaiDuck (you thirry thavageth ) -- can say "BUyer Beware," but from a different perspective: If you consider buying, become familiar with these drawbacks first. You may want to consider whether you want to go to the trouble of "modding and lapping" and whether it is worth your time and trouble. It depends on how much leisure time you have, and how much leisure time you want to spare. If you run into trouble with a particular motherboard, you may have to make corrective mods to the mounting mechanism, which means more time and trouble.

This is all really a shame, though, because the U-120-X and even the Ultima 90 to a lesser extent have proven performance potential. The design flaws would drive many backward to second-best -- nevertheless "close-runner-up" -- choices. But why the hell do you have to put up with a need to do DIY mods on the heatsink to get it to perform at an optimum?

Ridiculous.

Per the other poster who was "worried about his Core temperatures." Those load temperatures seem about par for the course -- in the 60's Centigrade across the cores. I can imagine a few degrees C difference in performance between the Ultima and the U-120-X, on the basis of size -- favoring the U-120-X.

My own Q6600 (B3) implementation for the U-120-X shows temps with the hottest core around 54C at room-ambient 75F in a 33% OC (1:1) to 3.0Ghz. At 3.2Ghz, my last testing showed peak values of around 64C-65C at 79F room ambient. The 3 Ghz OC has VCORE at 1.3V, while the 3.2 OC requires VCORE = 1.4188V. Keep in mind, though, I'm using diamond TIM (worth an improvement of a couple-degrees), and a motherboard-ducting mod. The ducting mod probably goes farther to cool mosfets and chipsets, because the TR-U-120-X is highly efficient and so ducting it may only be worth 4C to 5C improvement in CPU temperature alone.
 

Eeyore69

Member
Aug 19, 2007
29
0
0
BDuck,

This is my first time back also since I partially assembled my new Q6600 G0 system. I say partially since I have lapped the Ultima-90 but not the Q6600; I am going to burn it for a couple of more weeks before I lap it also. I didn't want to lap it just to have it quit a day later; $300 is too much to squander. I immediately overclocked it to 3.2G at 1.25v and began running Einstein@Home on all four cores at 100%. Since I live in the San Diego area it has been a bit warm here. The ambient is currently ~70F and the cores are running between 39-42C (using CoreTemp); when it was ~95-100F during the day the cores went up to ~49-51C. Hopefully, when I lap the processor and I use a decent thermal paste (Shin-Etsu rather than the cheap stuff I have on there now), the temps will go down some. And, when I lap the processor, I will also lap the chipset heatsinks and use the better thermal compound. Since I have a few 30 and 40mm fans I might also try attaching a couple of them. One thing I will have to do is to try running Orthos and see what kind of temps I get since I don't believe E@H stresses things as much. But I hope so since I seem to be getting decent temps so far.

When I lapped the heatsink, as I mentioned earlier, I found that the heatsink base was not convex but cylindrical. Someone indicated that this was a TR design characteristic to make better contact with the dual die processors; I don't think that making contact in a thin line would do better than having a flat surface. And with the quad cores it would be worse. I still think a flat heatsink base and flat processor case would be better/best. And when I installed the heatsink it seemed to mount fairly well. I can rotate the heatsink on the processor with a little pressure but I think that is designed in by TR. The clamp is held down by two screws with springs on them. I would guess that Intel has some sort of clamping pressure requirements (both AMD and Intel always have them in their specifications) and TR is just following these.

As far as the removal of the nickel I would be surprised if it will fall off around the edges after lapping. If so then the plating job would certainly be a poor one. It's not like the nickel is just molded around the copper base. But I can see TRs take on the warranty; all manufacturers like to have an out if something goes wrong with their product. I even heard that if you have a problem with an Intel processor you also have to send back the heatsink to prove to them that the original heatsink with the supplied TIM was used; if not then you don't have a warranty. I don't know if that is true though.

So far I am pleased with the heatsink. I bought it for the smaller size and the and the slightly lesser perfomance and glad I did. I am not sure if some of the other, larger, heatsinks would have fit into the case. It is a pain to lap but I would think all of the "tower" style sinks will be; it is very awkward to hold and keep the base level when moving it across the sandpaper.

I was considering, before I saw the temps, trying to duct my processor. I have the Antec 900 case, GA-P35-DS3R and U90 heatsink which allows the three upper 120mm fans to line up really nicely. The front intake is about 6-7" from the heatsink fan and the back of the heatsink is 3-4" from the exhaust fan. It would be very easy to duct them. But if I can keep my temps where they are I probably won't bother.

Eeyore
 
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