These damn Palestinians are way out of line! Civilian attacks have just become justifiable, thanks to their actions!

[beer]

Israeli Soldiers Lynched in Cold Blood

Israel is a much greater power than Palestine, or the entire Arab world, combined. Israel and the US, it's appearant ally (since basic US foreign policy, after this terrorist attack, is anti-Arab), call the shots.

And, to quote Stratfor:



<< It represents a systemic shift in Palestinian-Israeli politics, the collapse of the political center and destruction of a tacitly accepted coexistence between Israelis and Palestinians. >>



Who do these Palestinians think they are? Whether or not the causes are religiously justified, you CANNOT lynch soldiers of a bigger and more powerful enemy backed by the only remaining superpower in the world!

Whether or not Israel attacks civilians - if they do, it is justified in the eyes of Israel now. These civilians broke into a jail and killed these two soldiers. They are not innocent. These civilians deserve to - and will - die for their actions. And because of the actions of a few in a mob, many will die. But, in this situation, I cannot say that I disagree with attacking these &quot;innocent&quot; Palestine civilians if they are responsible for killing these soldiers. And they are.

You don't agitate them like this. This was completely uncalled for and Barak will retaliate with forces greater than Palestine can imagine.

[EDIT]: Fixed some typos.[/b]
[EDIT]: BEFORE YOU COMMENT ON THIS, KEEP IN MIND I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS KILLING BEING MORALLY CORRECT; RATHER, IT GIVES JUSTIFICATION FOR ISRAEL.

 

[403Forbidden]

No worries...Israel will fall into the sea if they do not clean up their dirty ways.

 

[beer]

Oh, BTW - when I say justifiable, I am mostly referring to giving Israel the excuse to attack civilians now. Now they can defend themselves with proof like this.

 

[403Forbidden]

<< Israel is a much greater power than Palestine, or the entire Arab world, combined. Israel and the US, it's appearant ally (since basic US foreign policy, after this terrorist attack, is anti-Arab), call the shots. >>




Sounds like Vietnam...don't have to tell you who won that one do I?

 

[beer]

Vietnam was lost because, in a nutshell, the war was controlled from Washington by Congress. It should have been controlled by the military strategists and generals.

I would doubt that we'd make that mistake again.

Plus, in Vietnam, the Russians were supplying the Vietkong as well as the Communist regime itself. They have intelligence that matched ours; their weapons were impressive in jungle fighting when compared to ours (early M16s vs. AK-47s, although I don't think anyone would argue that .22s played just as important role in wounding Americans as the AKs did in killing them).

Right now, no country in the world can match our air power, our land power, our naval range and strength, and the coordination we can amount to thereof.

In Kosovo, it was not as effective due to the fact that it was an air war, designed to reduce the risk of loss of American/Allied human life to nil. It did that, at the expense of a weak attack.

Now, we've already lost American lives and we haven't declared war yet. This is completely unacceptable.

This morning's attack will have severe, decisve consequences. While we may not be able to destroy a country from the air, when our tanks come rolling in, what are they going to do?

 

[Chef0083]

There's a big diference here. I don't see American troops getting involved in this. Israel is our ally and they use American equipment and we help to train some of their soldiers.

 

[beer]

<< My question is, Why the hell are we even supporting Isreal? >>



Because our government dislikes the same governments that theirs do.

By your logic, what has England done for us? The last thing they truly did for us...hmmm. Go back to them enforcing, in 1816, James Monroe's Monroe Doctrine when our military was too weak.

I honestly can't think of a time that Britain actually *did something* for us. Our governments have a common interest; this makes allies.

 

[403Forbidden]

I'm just saying we should not under estimate the opposition (if indeed the arabs are the
opposition).


They obviously have no problem dying for what they beleive in. They are willing to sacrifice
everything they have. Don't expect them to surrender easily...or at all for that matter.

You might have to kill ever single Palestinian if you want a conflict free &quot;Israel&quot;.
I doubt the US is up for that kind of task.

 

[Shuxclams]

<< My question is, Why the hell are we even supporting Isreal? >>



Link 1

Link 2


I (personally)am not a supporter of isreal, I live in a country that supports Isreal unfourtunetly.





SHUX

 

[beer]

<< There's a big diference here. I don't see American troops getting involved in this. Israel is our ally and they use American equipment and we help to train some of their soldiers. >>



Yesterday, I would have agreed with you.

But now 4 Americans are dead, and probably more will follow.

Whoever attacked the U.S.S Cole just brought the US farther into this conflict.

This was a DIRECT ATTACK on US PROPERTY. The Destroyer is our property. You've seen what we did to Bin Laden's infrastructure after they attacked an Embassy. Expect more resistance this time.

 

[beer]

403Forbidden:

I will address your points when I get back from lunch. I expect to be doing a lot of typing then.

 

[Chef0083]

We will have to find proof that they were responsible for that bombing. Don't forget, this country doesn't like having it's young men and women go and DIE in some other part of the world. After Vietnam the goverment is much more cautios to involve us in the type of conflict where lives will be lost as heavily as this one.

 

[Stosh]

To be specific. WE did not lose Vietnam, WE LEFT!!! The American forces NEVER lost a battle.

As for Isreal...What did people think was going to happen when they created The Palestinian Authority and gave them guns. It was inevitable.

 

[403Forbidden]

<< To be specific. WE did not lose Vietnam, WE LEFT!!! The American forces NEVER lost a battle. >>




We &quot;left&quot; without completeing our objective. We let the opposition remain in power. I'd say that equals loosing.

 

[SKiller]

The funny thing is that most Israelis and Palestinians living in Israel get along just fine. It's the extremeists living outside that cause all the trouble. Nobody's keeping them out, they just seem to be intent on either killing or driving out all the Israelis rather than actually living on Isaeli territory.

 

[Chef0083]

Stosh

Are you saying we didn't lose the tet offensive? We got our butts kicked very badly then!!

 

[beer]

I beg to differ.



<< We will have to find proof that they were responsible for that bombing. Don't forget, this country doesn't like having it's young men and women go and DIE in some other part of the world. >>



This is only partially true. Our people as a whole do not fighting other people's wars; but right now, this could turn out to be our war. U.S soil has never been under heavy attack since the mid-1800s. World War II saw Pearl Harbor and Aleutian attacks but never extensive mainland attacks; however, we sent out people to fight and die in Europe and on the high seas.

Now, assume, these Arab extemists attack U.S soil with a bombing; how would this be different than Pearl Harbor? It wouldn't. In fact, it would be worse, because our defense against such terrorist attacks is far weaker than military attacks.
And I wouldn't discount this as being a possibility.

Furthermore, if they can attack civilians - which I wouldn't put past them (Federal building bombing, for example) - why would be not allowed to firebomb or napalm entire cities like we did in World War II?

So, in conclusion - it is not true to say that our country does not want to fight wars abroad. We have never had a true war on our soil since the War of 1812! And yet, we have fought several major wars since then. It is true to say that our country does not like fighting wars where U.S. interests and lives are not the cause of the war; if these terrorists attack U.S land, our interests and lives are at stake.

 

[DABANSHEE]

The US supports Israel for one reason only, the huge American Jewish lobby. When in 1947 the heads of U.S diplomatic missions in the Middle East (from French Nth Africa to British India) convened in Washington, D.C. to advise President Harry Truman against the division of Palestine, saying it would result in a bloodbath in the short run and major problems for the U.S. in the Middle East in the long run. They were right,as history has proven. But President Truman?s reply at the time was, &quot;I am sorry gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands who are anxious for the success of Zionism. I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents&quot;(Curtiss, 76).

&amp; its been the same ever since, why do you think Israel gets more American foreign aid than the rest of the world combined ($85 billion over 30 years), actually to every $1 that goes to the whole of Africa, $250 goes to Israel. Its because American politicians are afraid of the New York Jewish vote &amp; the Jewish controlled media. &amp; what does America get in return? Heartache. Americas support of Israel has been almost as damaging to US interests &amp; security (example the oil embargo of 1974) as the creation of the Warsaw Pact.

 

[Marty]

Thats the most rediculous thing I have ever heard. Israel is justified in attacking civilians? Are you out of your mind? This means any foreign government would be justified in attacking US citizens just because some other Americans committed crimes against their citizens. It doesn't work that way.

Israel is completely out of line, not the Palestinians. According to the Geneva convention, which Israel agreed to, land conquered in war must be returned. It seems to me that Israel is in violation to that treaty.

Look at the numbers. How many Israelites have died? Five? Nearly a hundred Palestinians have been killed. It started with rock throwing, but Israel escalated the conflict to include guns, tanks, and helicopters. I think I know where the blame lies.

You say that the people who did this deserve to die? Do you agree with Israel's action in taking out entire buildings from the air? I don't see how that is punishing the people responsible at all.

Marty

 

[beer]

No - you are wrong.

The U.S supports Israel because they are (one of) the only democratic nations in a sea of theocracies.

We support them because our governments are alike; our government has, and always will, support pro-Democratic countries such as Israel.

DABANSHEE - this is your only arguement to everything. Let me pull up the references you have made to Lieberman and &quot;The American Jewish Lobby&quot; -



<< radical Orthadox Kach sect (basically loud mouthed Jewish New Yorkers, like that Lieberman bloke), >>


- http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&amp;threadid=251769



<< . Although I doubt all those American politicians, who keep sucking up to the New York Jewish voters >>



- http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&amp;threadid=251846

Come up with a better reason why we are allied with Israel. We have been allied with them since the early Cold War era - and are you still going go attribute that to &quot;Jewish New Yorkers?&quot;

Give me a break.

 

[StageLeft]

I don't think the US can be particularly impressed with Israel shooting on civilians. They did this before the soliders were killed...and anyway, one angry mob doesn't justify the death of many innocent civilians.

What has Clinton really said about the US's stance on this? I'd like to know...I feel that Israel is going too far on this.

So what if a couple of soliders were lynched - it sucks yes it does - but a war is going to suck harder!

 

[Johnlee]

<< you CANNOT lynch soldiers of a bigger and more powerful enemy backed by the only remaining superpower in the world! >>



They did already.





<< when our tanks come rolling in, what are they going to do? >>



WTF are you talking about? Have I missed something? Our tanks??? If I missed this, please, someone let me know when/how much of our forces are &quot;rolling in&quot; to destroy the Palestinians.

 

[Johnlee]

<< The killing of the soldiers and Israel's strong response left little hope that Israel and the Palestinians could negotiate a truce and bring an end to two weeks of bloodshed that have left at least 94 people dead, the vast majority Palestinians. >>



Did you read the entire article or is this a rant on the first two paragraphs?

 

[beer]

Gonna start with the most recent -

JohnLee -



<< They did already. >>

Duh. But more importantly...



<< Our tanks??? If I missed this, please, someone let me know when/how much of our forces are &quot;rolling in&quot; to destroy the Palestinians. >>



Alright. Read the parts of my message later down! It starts with, I beg to differ....

What I am talking about is how an Arab attack on U.S destroyers may lead to attacks on U.S. soil which can be comparable to the events that brought us into World War II. Who knows where they will stop?

Marty-



<< It started with rock throwing, but Israel escalated the conflict to include guns, tanks, and helicopters. >>



You know what...if you are dumb enough to throw rocks at armed troops of an enemy and expect them to just stand there, then you deserve to be shot at. These kids can't be that dumb. And I believe it was Palestine that capured 3 Israeli soldiers, and then lynched another 2? And you are blaming Israel for escalating the conflict?



<< This means any foreign government would be justified in attacking US citizens just because some other Americans committed crimes against their citizens. >>



Umm...isn't that what Bin Laden does? Wait, no it doesn't it's worse, he commits crimes against Americans even though our government has done things to him...which I have yet to figure out what he is talking about, but whatever.

And speaking of him, if the Afghani's would just turn him in, a lot of our involvement would be defused.

 

[StageLeft]

I don't think this is an Iraq vs. Kuwait matter, and although the US jumped in to repel the Iraqis after their invasion I don't believe (and I hope) that the US is not so quick to jump into the trenches next to Israel in this matter. Both seem pretty eager for a fight, its just a case of which group is in the right...

If I was in the US military and sent to help Israel kill some Palestinian citizens I think I'd have to go AWOL!