Thinking of trying out Linux...

[ArmchairAthlete]

I plan to get a coop job within the next year. I was browsing the openings on my school's site and noticed that a number of companies like to see Linux experience. That's one incentive to try it, and of course just curiosity. Sooner or later I'll be trying it so it might as well be now.

So on with the questions...

-What flavor of Linux? Preferably something companies are likely to be using.

-Would it be a good idea to try the Knoppix distro and just run from the CD with no install? Sounds easy enough.

-Is dual booting Linux/Windows troublesome? Seems like I've heard it is but I'm not sure.

-Is certain hardware preferable over other options? I may put together a second system out of a few spare parts and a few purchased ones, but I've heard driver support is sometimes limited and if I buy something I want to know it will work out.

-If you were modifying the OS distro itself, what language would you be dealing with? Or does it vary by distro?

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: ArmchairAthlete
I plan to get a coop job within the next year. I was browsing the openings on my school's site and noticed that a number of companies like to see Linux experience. That's one incentive to try it, and of course just curiosity. Sooner or later I'll be trying it so it might as well be now.

So on with the questions...

-What flavor of Linux? Preferably something companies are likely to be using.

RedHat (or one of the clones like whitebox(?)), SuSE, or Mandrake for the big ones. Yes, I know there are companies that use Debian or probably just about any other distro, but these are the big corporate ones.

-Would it be a good idea to try the Knoppix distro and just run from the CD with no install? Sounds easy enough.

Yes. It might help you get a feel for things without devoting time and resources.

-Is dual booting Linux/Windows troublesome? Seems like I've heard it is but I'm not sure.

It can be. I never had issues with it, but I decided running an multiple OSes was best done on multiple computers.

-Is certain hardware preferable over other options? I may put together a second system out of a few spare parts and a few purchased ones, but I've heard driver support is sometimes limited and if I buy something I want to know it will work out.

Some hardware is better supported than others.
Generally most x86 processors are supported (there might be some issues with select [34]86es though).
VIA, Intel, and AMD are the safe motherboard chipsets.
Most 10/100 network cards should be supported, although I'd recommend Intel or Linksys.
Gigabit ethernet cards are probably well supported.
Some wireless should be supported, it depends on the chipset.
If you plan on using 3d, get an nVidia video card.

-If you were modifying the OS distro itself, what language would you be dealing with? Or does it vary by distro?

Generally C, perl, shell scripting (probably BASH :|), and maybe a bit of C++. In some distros, python might be popular too.

 

[ArmchairAthlete]

Some hardware is better supported than others.
Generally most x86 processors are supported (there might be some issues with select [34]86es though).
VIA, Intel, and AMD are the safe motherboard chipsets.
Most 10/100 network cards should be supported, although I'd recommend Intel or Linksys.
Gigabit ethernet cards are probably well supported.
Some wireless should be supported, it depends on the chipset.
If you plan on using 3d, get an nVidia video card.

My cheapest option is to just get a mobo with integrated video/sound/network and then put an Athlon 1700+ I already have in it. How's support for one of those boards? I could look around for a specific one.

The other option is to upgrade my current gaming rig and then use my current hardware for building a second PC. That would mean an Asus A7N8X Deluxe motherboard (integrated network/sound).

 

[n0cmonkey]

I would avoid using the A7N8X board, since it uses an nVidia chipset. They aren't well supported, unless nVidia has opened up docs recently.

I did a quick search on newegg for boards that use/have: Socket A, integrated sound, integrated video, integrated network. There were 2 results, and look like older Athlon boards (BIOSTAR M7VIG 400 and Shuttle MK40VN). Both use VIA chipsets and would probably be fine.

The nVidia board might be fine too, I've never purchased or used one. But if you decide to use it, be prepared to jump through some hoops to get it to work.

 

[drag]

Any Intel or Via board with onboard video will be well supported.

Nvidia boards will offer much more powerfull on-board video, but you will have to deal with Nvidia's propriatory drivers. Via and Intel support pretty well.

Also older ATI cards are fairly decent Linux video cards. Anything with 9200's or earlier have linux support from open source drivers. Anything newer then that is dreadfull.

The sticky part is the video drivers. Everything else is has great support. I can expect that if you buy any Via or Intel motherboard that is NOT cutting edge technology it will work automaticly out of the box (like use boards that are one or two generations behind the newest stuff, but thats cheaper anyways). AMD motherboards probably, too, but I don't know much about those guys.

Also check out the quailty of the manufacturer, especially with Via boards. Some manufacturers are cheap, but their boards are cheap. Nice via-based boards can be very nice.

this is the dri project. This is the source of open source 3d accelerated drivers. It's very hard going and they have support for older cards and Intel/Via embedded style cards. (like the 855 intel chipset used in many inexpensive boards and laptops).


Check out this guy. he has good advice on buying a Unix workstation. Listen to what he says and you can have a nice setup that is well supported and dead stable.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I would avoid using the A7N8X board, since it uses an nVidia chipset. They aren't well supported, unless nVidia has opened up docs recently.

I did a quick search on newegg for boards that use/have: Socket A, integrated sound, integrated video, integrated network. There were 2 results, and look like older Athlon boards (BIOSTAR M7VIG 400 and Shuttle MK40VN). Both use VIA chipsets and would probably be fine.

The nVidia board might be fine too, I've never purchased or used one. But if you decide to use it, be prepared to jump through some hoops to get it to work.

Never had good luck with Biostar boards personally. I had a freind who bought a bunch in a row from a local store and they suffered heavily from bulging caps. (but they are cheap!)

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: drag

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I would avoid using the A7N8X board, since it uses an nVidia chipset. They aren't well supported, unless nVidia has opened up docs recently.

I did a quick search on newegg for boards that use/have: Socket A, integrated sound, integrated video, integrated network. There were 2 results, and look like older Athlon boards (BIOSTAR M7VIG 400 and Shuttle MK40VN). Both use VIA chipsets and would probably be fine.

The nVidia board might be fine too, I've never purchased or used one. But if you decide to use it, be prepared to jump through some hoops to get it to work.

Never had good luck with Biostar boards personally. I had a freind who bought a bunch in a row from a local store and they suffered heavily from bulging caps. (but they are cheap!)

I try to go Asus or one of the workstation companies (supermicro, tyan, etc.). My gigabyte board is doing well too. None have linux on them though, except the supermicro.

 

[milesl]

If you are really interested in learning linux I would install a "from scratch" and customizeable distro such as Gentoo.I tried red hat debian and mandrake and had driver issues with them and the install never taught me important stuff like recompiling the kernel and customizing it with the proper modules for the hardware you have.

I went and installed gentoo from scratch and it taught me alot about linux.Gentoo has a great step by step manual on their web site on how to do it all, and their support forums are awsome.I never had to ask a single question just search the forums.

I am still a linux noob but this was the best learning experience I have ever had with linux.It teaches you alot about the internal workings...config files ...file systems...directory structures..driver modules...and the x server...kde,knome and different types of desktops.

On the down side it WILL be very time consuming.But you will learn alot.

 

[Nothinman]

If you are really interested in learning linux I would install a "from scratch" and customizeable distro such as Gentoo.

Right, because watching the automated scripts compile everything really teaches you what is what...

the install never taught me important stuff like recompiling the kernel and customizing it with the proper modules for the hardware you have.

Because these days it's not important, distro kernels come with pretty much everything compiled as a module so you can just load support for whatever you need without recompiling.

 

[ArmchairAthlete]

Ok, so scratch the idea of using my current Nvidia chipset mobo. Guess I'd be looking for a relatively cheap socket A mobo, VIA or Intel chipset, with onboard video/network/sound.

Asus has worked well for me in the PC I built for me, another for my dad, and another for a friend... so what about this board:

http://www.newegg.com/app/View...=13-131-509&depa=0

If you are really interested in learning linux I would install a "from scratch" and customizeable distro such as Gentoo.I tried red hat debian and mandrake and had driver issues with them and the install never taught me important stuff like recompiling the kernel and customizing it with the proper modules for the hardware you have.

But I could try an easier one first... do many companies use Gentoo? I may not run into driver issues if I buy a mobo that should be well supported, which I'd like to do heh.

I suppose I'll go read up on some of the distros out there. What are the main big ones to look for? SuSe, Gentoo, Red hat, Mandrake, Debian, ?

 

[Nothinman]

do many companies use Gentoo?

Not any that care about support and QA. The biggest are going to be RedHat and SuSe/Novell. HP uses Debian internally, but unless you end up working for them you'll probably not see many companies using Debian. But I highly recommend Debian, IMO it is light years ahead of RedHat and SuSe, once you get the feel for a Debian system it just makes things so much easier.

 

[ArmchairAthlete]

Another question, how's laptop support? I don't have a laptop and it might be a way to try Linux and get a portable system at the same time if it's not too difficult to get Linux running on a laptop.

Can your standard Dell laptop that comes with Windows have Linux working on it instead?

 

[Nothinman]

Generally yes, most things work just fine. I had Debian on a Latitude 4100 for a few years and now I have it on an Area-51m.

 

[drag]

Check out user's documenting their own laptop experiance here

Laptops are kinda hard for Linux to support many times becuase they are such little black boxes. Often you run into hardware that was only used in one or two laptops, but are mostly compatable with hardware used on many laptops. Causes headaches. Some work very well, some work not so well.

Check up their and see if anybody has your laptop or similar one that they installed linux on and see how well it worked out for them.

 

[DeeKnow]

i've been thinking about doing Linux too for some time... I've got an old Toshiba Satellite Pro 420CDT (PIII-100MHz-MMX) which isn't good for anything else anymore, so I might as well use that... Question: will Linux be useable on a 100MHz PIII?

also, can I find out whether 'whatever distro I decide to use' version of Linux will support all my hardware without passing the point of no return... ie. if it will not support my sound card etc I may as well not do it, and return to using it with Win95 ... is that possible, or do i risk losing my windows installation and then finding out that Linux wont reallly cut it on my machine?

 

[Flatline]

Before you go out and buy a mobo, check the hardware compatibility listings for Mandrake, or if you're going to use another distro try Here. Not everything that's supported is on the lists, but they're pretty thorough. I've had good luck with Mandrake and noobs, so I would recommend it for you (10.1 Official is available for free download now); of course, Fedora, SUSE, etc. would work just fine for you as well, although SUSE you would have to pay for.

Knoppix is always handy to have around and it is always nice to have a general feel for something before you jump in. SUSE and Mandrake have their own live CDs as well.

 

[drag]

i've been thinking about doing Linux too for some time... I've got an old Toshiba Satellite Pro 420CDT (PIII-100MHz-MMX) which isn't good for anything else anymore, so I might as well use that... Question: will Linux be useable on a 100MHz PIII?

also, can I find out whether 'whatever distro I decide to use' version of Linux will support all my hardware without passing the point of no return... ie. if it will not support my sound card etc I may as well not do it, and return to using it with Win95 ... is that possible, or do i risk losing my windows installation and then finding out that Linux wont reallly cut it on my machine?

100mhz Pentium 3?


It will be stable, unfortunately in it's default setup it only has 8megs RAM. Which is not anywere enough for normal Linux distro.

Most graphical installers require 32 or 64megs of ram to work.

You CAN install Linux on it, and it will be perfecly stable, but don't expect it to run X Windows. It would only be usefull as a command line only machine.

Now Linux command line is VERY capable. Even though it looks like DOS it is just as capable as any modern OS interface.

Mutlitasking, 32bit enviroment, multiuser, etc etc et. You have browsers, games, IRC clients, Email clients, text editors, media players, and all that stuff. You can multiplex command line enviroments with the "screen" program (have dozens and dozens of command line enviroments open and aviable with easy key combos if you want).

But I don't expect that a new user would like to use it at all! You can have a very usefull computer, but not a usefull plus userfreindly enviroment, sorry.


PS. For years I used a 486 machine with a pentium overdrive chip and it had 3 scsi drives that I used as a GREAT file server for years. But it wasn't no laptop, it was a ancient Proliant. Still have it, still runs, still runs linux well. X Windows will run, but runs like crap.

Speed of the computer shouldn't affect stability, but it will affect usability.

 

[yelo333]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
The nVidia board might be fine too, I've never purchased or used one. But if you decide to use it, be prepared to jump through some hoops to get it to work.

For example ? Would you explain which hoops?

I've got an NF7, which, I believe, for the purposes of this discussion, is "close enough" to the board you mentioned.

The onboard ethernet works via the forcedeth module, which is in all kernels 2.4.26+, and the later 2.6 kernels(2.6.3 is sticking out in my mind as being the first to have it). This module's source was built via reverse-engineering, so, there is a possibility of it not working 100%...however, in my experience, I've achieved greater performance/stability with it than with an rtl8139-based pci add-in card.

So, check on the onboard ethernet

Onboard sound is plain old AC97(I don't have a clue about those with soundstorm, as I don't have the NF7-S). Works fine. Not much more to say...

check on the onboard sound...

All other parts of the motherboard(IDE driver, AGP driver, USB, etc.) Are also supported with the same level of support as the aformentioned portions(read: have their own nforce-specific drivers). I'd be happy to give a bit more verbose output on anything else about the mobo.

Stability-wise, I haven't had any crashes except for those I'm sure are related to the fact that ATI+linux just don't mix(I have a radeon 9000, which I bought before I knew better)

So, why NOT an nforce-based motherboard? IMHO, VIA DOES make subpar components. it may not show up for a few months/years, but, rest assured, it will show up. My #1 problem I've seen only on VIA motherboards: IRQ assignments. Just try filling up all your slots with PCI cards...Most of the time, only one or two configurations of which card goes in which slot works...This is usually not the case with motherboards with competing chipsets.

 

[milesl]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

Right, because watching the automated scripts compile everything really teaches you what is what...

I think you missed my point.You don't just watch the scripts compile.You have to set it all up from scatch.Teaches you the commands and how to configure the whole system from bootloader to the desktop.Comes in very handy if you want to set up multiple kernnels or dual boot systems or change you hardware and and recompile the kernel with support for the new hardware.How to configure the text configuration files,how to mount directoried,how to chroot,ect....

From my experience with red hat,mandrake ,and debian,None of those installs taught me all of that.It was more like installing windows.

Of course that is just my opinion and experience.

Originally posted by: Nothinman

Because these days it's not important, distro kernels come with pretty much everything compiled as a module so you can just load support for whatever you need without recompiling.

I was trying to get an isa soundcard and a nvidia geforce 1 working under mandrake,debian and red hat and was totally unsuccessfull.I know its old hardware,but it was what I was using at the time to try out linux.
I got it working on the first try with gentoo,because I compiled the kernel with the proper support for oss and added support for nvidia drivers.Later I configured alsa to also work with the soundcard.

Like I said I am new to linux,but the gentoo install taught me alot on how the system works.

I found the documentation and support on the other distros I tried confused me when it came to adding support for old hardware or adding support for 3d cards.

Just my experience with linux.I'm sorry you dont agree someone will learn much from a from scratch install.

 

[Nothinman]

From my experience with red hat,mandrake ,and debian,None of those installs taught me all of that.It was more like installing windows.

I know there's more to the installation than that, I have tried it before. But I still think it's largely pointless, the only thing it actually explained back when I did it was the partitioning because I had to use a BSD disklabel, the rest of it was just "type this command" type stuff.

I found the documentation and support on the other distros I tried confused me when it came to adding support for old hardware or adding support for 3d cards.

There are Debian packages for the nVidia drivers and the README that comes with the normal download explains everything you need to know if you don't want the packages or you're doing something odd.

Just my experience with linux.I'm sorry you dont agree someone will learn much from a from scratch install.

A real from scratch install would be LFS, where you actually have to build everything by hand.

I just really don't like Gentoo, but it seems that a lot of people like wasting their time with it.

 

[milesl]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

I just really don't like Gentoo, but it seems that a lot of people like wasting their time with it.

Ok,Sorry I mentioned it.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: yelo333

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
The nVidia board might be fine too, I've never purchased or used one. But if you decide to use it, be prepared to jump through some hoops to get it to work.

For example ? Would you explain which hoops?

Being prepared for something is a good thing, whether it will happen or not. How did Slackware install on that system? Or Debian stable? Or RedHat ES?

I've got an NF7, which, I believe, for the purposes of this discussion, is "close enough" to the board you mentioned.

The onboard ethernet works via the forcedeth module, which is in all kernels 2.4.26+, and the later 2.6 kernels(2.6.3 is sticking out in my mind as being the first to have it). This module's source was built via reverse-engineering, so, there is a possibility of it not working 100%...however, in my experience, I've achieved greater performance/stability with it than with an rtl8139-based pci add-in card.

So, check on the onboard ethernet

I personally wouldn't trust it, and would never compare anything that is supposed to be as good as nVidia's ethernet (Anandtech benchmarks made it look pretty damn yummy ) to a realtek card.

Onboard sound is plain old AC97(I don't have a clue about those with soundstorm, as I don't have the NF7-S). Works fine. Not much more to say...

check on the onboard sound...

All other parts of the motherboard(IDE driver, AGP driver, USB, etc.) Are also supported with the same level of support as the aformentioned portions(read: have their own nforce-specific drivers). I'd be happy to give a bit more verbose output on anything else about the mobo.

I've read about issues on OpenBSD with various parts, including the IDE system. I don't trust it.

Stability-wise, I haven't had any crashes except for those I'm sure are related to the fact that ATI+linux just don't mix(I have a radeon 9000, which I bought before I knew better)

So, why NOT an nforce-based motherboard? IMHO, VIA DOES make subpar components. it may not show up for a few months/years, but, rest assured, it will show up.

I'll let my few year old VIA based motherboards know that. They'll be sad to hear as they chug away doing what they do best.

My #1 problem I've seen only on VIA motherboards: IRQ assignments. Just try filling up all your slots with PCI cards...Most of the time, only one or two configurations of which card goes in which slot works...This is usually not the case with motherboards with competing chipsets.

If I get a chance, I'll try it. I'm not sure why I would want to fill them up though. I probably have enough PCI cards lying around to fill up the year or so old computer I've got sitting on the desk here.


Why not buy nVidia? Because they don't support F/OSS. Because they are openly hostile to the community. Because I cannot trust them. It's the same reason I avoid Intel. Intel opens up a hell of a lot more than nVidia though. At the moment nVidia is letting Linux users suck off their teat of mediocrity, when all they have to do is give up a bit of documentation.

If I look at the list of supported NICs on the OpenBSD HCL, I can find just about every major vendor out there. Broadcom, Marvell, Intel, Realtek, whoever is making Linksys's ethernet chipsets these days, etc. But where is nVidia? Ethernet is nothing. Everyone and their grandmother has their own chipset, and they're fairly open (to varying degrees). Intel writes open source drivers (BSD licensed drivers for FreeBSD, and maybe GPL for Linux(?)). Where are the open source drivers from nVidia? Where is the documentation?

I understand they have tech in their video cards that they cannot release. Fine, they write excellent 2D drivers for X11 (I'm using it right now in fact). I can deal with a closed source 3d driver for the most part (although I would encourage them to do better in the future). But that makes absolutely no sense for ethernet, IDE, etc. Screw them.

I've been using AMD chipsets since I got my first Athlon 550 (I think the 600s or the 650s were the latest at the time, so I got on the bandwagon pretty damned early). As you may know one of the parts of the chipset (south bridge?) is provided by VIA. The boards have been serving me pretty well, lasting quite a while. I've gotten several VIA only boards since I started making computers. 2 of them were trash, but that was my fault for not researching those particular boards better. The machine I'm typing this on is a VIA based machine. It's been pretty damned stable, and I couldn't ask for much more.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Gentoo's documentation is good, and their forums are amazing. I'll give them that. Debian needs to work on their documentation a bit.

 

[Flatline]

Not exactly scientific, but my Asus P3V4X was probably the most stable mobo I've ever owned (I gave it to my brother a year ago after I ran it for a couple of years; also built a machine for my mom with the same model) and it was VIA-based. The machine I'm typing this from is also a VIA-based machine, and it's a workhorse...I haven't had a single problem with it. I've also built God only knows how many machines based on VIA chipsets and haven't had problems (with the mobo at least).
I'm not lucky enough to "luck out" that many times in a row.
Of course, I always research the hell out of my parts before I buy.

 

[yelo333]

Being prepared for something is a good thing, whether it will happen or not. How did Slackware install on that system? Or Debian stable? Or RedHat ES?

Slackware installed fine. As did gentoo. And debian stable. Let's not forget RH 7.3, RH 9, FC1, Suse 9.0, 9.1...Rest assured, I've installed my share of distro's on this box .

I personally wouldn't trust it, and would never compare anything that is supposed to be as good as nVidia's ethernet (Anandtech benchmarks made it look pretty damn yummy ) to a realtek card.

Not quite sure what you mean by this...you saying the realtek is just too horrible card to try to compare anything with it?

I've read about issues on OpenBSD with various parts, including the IDE system. I don't trust it.

Can't comment here, as I don't run any of the *BSD's...Would you care to provide a few links?

I'll let my few year old VIA based motherboards know that. They'll be sad to hear as they chug away doing what they do best.

What about their early sckt A chipsets? they had horrible issues...sure, they will come out with a good chipset every once in awhile. My #2 issue is the number of times I've seen fixes for VIA-only issues in various changelogs for programs...also, I've noticed that during heavy loads, VIA-based mobo's seem to lose some of the precision with the mouse on the ps/2 port. hard to describe, but, I can just "tell" when I sit down at a computer with one of those "affected" motherboards.

My #1 problem I've seen only on VIA motherboards: IRQ assignments. Just try filling up all your slots with PCI cards...Most of the time, only one or two configurations of which card goes in which slot works...This is usually not the case with motherboards with competing chipsets.

If I get a chance, I'll try it. I'm not sure why I would want to fill them up though. I probably have enough PCI cards lying around to fill up the year or so old computer I've got sitting on the desk here.

I'd better come out of my generalization-cloud, and state specifics:

I've dealt with 3 VIA-based motherboards, 2 with K6'es, and 1 with a pentium II. All of them had this issue.

Also of note, a VIA-based dell has usb issues...

I've also dealt with an intel-based mobo, an sis-based mobo, and my current nforce2-based mobo. None of them have this issue.

Why not buy nVidia? Because they don't support F/OSS. Because they are openly hostile to the community. Because I cannot trust them. It's the same reason I avoid Intel. Intel opens up a hell of a lot more than nVidia though. At the moment nVidia is letting Linux users suck off their teat of mediocrity, when all they have to do is give up a bit of documentation.

OK, I'm not a dev, can't comment here. It's very possible you are right.

If I look at the list of supported NICs on the OpenBSD HCL, I can find just about every major vendor out there. Broadcom, Marvell, Intel, Realtek, whoever is making Linksys's ethernet chipsets these days, etc. But where is nVidia? Ethernet is nothing. Everyone and their grandmother has their own chipset, and they're fairly open (to varying degrees). Intel writes open source drivers (BSD licensed drivers for FreeBSD, and maybe GPL for Linux(?)). Where are the open source drivers from nVidia? Where is the documentation?

OK, don't have enough experience to comment intelligently here...thing is, though, my particular motherboard(and ones with specs close to it) seem to have a high degree of support in-kernel, which would mean open source, reverse-engineered or not...

One thing, though, what about VIA? do they provide the required info for people to make FOSS drivers?

I understand they have tech in their video cards that they cannot release. Fine, they write excellent 2D drivers for X11 (I'm using it right now in fact). I can deal with a closed source 3d driver for the most part (although I would encourage them to do better in the future). But that makes absolutely no sense for ethernet, IDE, etc. Screw them.

I've been using AMD chipsets since I got my first Athlon 550 (I think the 600s or the 650s were the latest at the time, so I got on the bandwagon pretty damned early). As you may know one of the parts of the chipset (south bridge?) is provided by VIA. The boards have been serving me pretty well, lasting quite a while. I've gotten several VIA only boards since I started making computers. 2 of them were trash, but that was my fault for not researching those particular boards better. The machine I'm typing this on is a VIA based machine. It's been pretty damned stable, and I couldn't ask for much more.

I've never used AMD chipsets. The two chipsets I was comparing were the socket A VIA+nforce chipsets. IIRC, when I bought my setup(almost exactly a year ago), the AMD chipsets were outdated, and were not used by the major manufactures, and so I never even considered them. can't comment here.