This gravity simulation looks a lot like ...

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I was reading this article about the simulations performed for the movie "Interstellar"and saw this picture of gravity bending light and it looks very similar as the magnetosphere of the earth deflecting the solar wind or even the magnetic field lines of the sun (artist impression). Compressing the field in front of it and expanding the field behind the gravity object. Is this just artist impression coincidence or is it because electrical fields, magnetic fields and gravitational fields all behave similar. I know the calculations for field strength are similar.

http://www.wired.com/2014/10/astrophysics-interstellar-black-hole/



http://euanmearns.com/the-laschamp-event-and-earths-wandering-magnetic-field/







My question is, why is this so much similar ?
I would get the impression that gravity does not only bend light but that light can also affect the gravitational field around an object giving it a certain shape.
 
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Or is it just that when a gravitational object lika a star or a black hole,
while moving compresses space in front of it and expanding space behind it ?
 

Biftheunderstudy

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It's not entirely coincidence, GR and EM theory can be unified at a certain energy scale. You can even see the similarities in the simplified force equations (Newton vs Coulomb law):

F_coulomb = k q1 q2 / r^2
F_gravity = -G m M / r^2

But there are some very important differences, the constant, k, vs G are different by MANY orders of magnitude leading to EM being way way stronger than gravity.

Second, EM has 2 charges of opposite sign, gravity only has one charge. This leads to there being no mass dipole. Earth's magnetic field is largely described by a dipole, but the gravitational field has it's first moment as a quadrupole.

There are lots of interesting analogies between GR and magnetism if you look though, such as the gravitomagnetic effect.
 

serpretetsky

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You are asking why the bottom half of this:


has a somewhat similar shape to this?

I'm actually not sure how they made that black hole image, every black hole simulation I have seen bends the light behind it symmetrically. Maybe something to do with rotating/moving blackholes? Maybe that's not even a simulation, maybe thats actually a very strange graph? I mean... it has a theta and a phi labeled.

I honestly have no idea, but I think it's pretty much pure coincidence.

edit: I guess it's some sort of diagram? What it is diagraming, though,I have no idea. What is theta? what is phi?
 
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@ serpretetsky
The complete story can be found in the wired article. However, the black hole image from the movie is removed from the article. You can still see a small part of a black hole (with accretion disc) bending light in the trailer of the movie.
Yeah, those deformations seem strikingly similar but it can just be coincidence or not as Biftheunderstudy mentioned.


@ Biftheunderstudy
Are those not the famous inverse square laws ?

Newtons law and coulombs law are similar. But there is also one for magnetism that is almost the same. I searched for it but i have not found it yet.
 

serpretetsky

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@ serpretetsky
The complete story can be found in the wired article. However, the black hole image from the movie is removed from the article. You can still see a small part of a black hole (with accretion disc) bending light in the trailer of the movie.
Yeah, those deformations seem strikingly similar but it can just be coincidence or not as Biftheunderstudy mentioned.

I can't seem to find the article talking about that image at all. There is some text under the image that calls it a diagram. A diagram of what? do you know?

I tried googling "black hole" for images. I did not find a single image that generates that shape or distortion. Check out the blackhole they rendered for the movie. Doesn't look anything like the earth's magnetosphere to me.

I tried to lookup that particular image in google reverse image search. Here are the results:

google reverse image search


The only things it found was that article, this thread, and a bunch of shower curtains.

edit:

graviational lensing diagram. Looks mildly similar, but there is clear squishing in front of the blackhole diagram that isn't present in graviational lense diagrams. And after the rays leave the immediate graviational area they stop bending unlike that mystery diagram. Still not sure what that is a diagram of.
 
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serpretetsky

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http://www.engr.mun.ca/~ggeorge/astron/blackholes.html
that looks fruitful. Check "The view from outside". It describes a rotating black hole and has a diagram of light travelling towards the blackhole. If that site is correct, then light does not simply get attracted towards the center of a rotating blackhole. In that case, maybe it can cause visual distortions that are not radially symmetrical like they are usually depicted in images. I'm not sure
 

Biftheunderstudy

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I quickly perused the article, it looks like this is the distortion of starlight around a spinning black hole + accretion disk. The coordinates are strange and they didn't provide any caption or anything.

It does appear that any similarities you are seeing between the dipole field of the Earth and the bending of starlight is coincidence and your brain forcing a pattern where none exists. (Our stupid brains are really good at this).

One of the reasons the Earth's field looks the way it does, is that charged particles from the sun are "grabbing" on to the field lines and stretching them. Maybe the black hole simulation provides a somewhat similar geometry.

As far as the equation for magnetic fields, maybe you are thinking the Biot-Savart law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biot–Savart_law
 
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Thank you both for the reply.

There is one more question that i have.
We normally assume an object with mass and thus gravity stationary.

But let say we have an "empty" part of space and a black hole is traveling in a certain direction. We "know" that empty space is not really empty. It is filled with virtual particles. "Particles" that come to exist and cease to exist in a very small time frame. I was wondering, if a neutron star or a black hole or just a star would move around in that empty space, would it not compress space in front of it and expand space behind it ?
Forcing virtual particles closer together in front of it and maybe cause some particles to appear like neutrino's or something like that.
Let's assume this does happen, a star would create some effect, a neutron star would cause a considerable effect and a black hole would really cause an effect.

Would space be compressed in front of a moving body with extreme gravity and would space be expanded behind that body with extreme gravity ?
 

Biftheunderstudy

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I'm not entirely sure how to answer that.

The virtual particles being created near the event horizon is effectively Hawking Radiation.

As far as the compression and expansion of space due to a moving black hole...changes to the metric propagate at the speed of light and so all GR effects are perfectly consistent with special relativity. My guess is that you will see a doppler shift due to the motion in the Hawking radiation (with respect to the virtual pair creation you mentioned). Supposing we could actually detect this radiation, and the black hole was moving a significant portion of the speed of light. The former *may* be possible, the latter is highly unlikely.

Remember, black holes are spherically symmetric (probably), so the compression of spacetime is the same in all directions around them. Any changes to that due to motion would be extremely small (special relativity), and accelerating a black hole to near c would be very tough due to their large masses.
 
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Ah, ok.



I found some of the Interstellar blackhole screenshots and an explanation for the special shape :







This equations provided by Kip Thorne produced an unusual phenomenon of light around the black hole. (Photo: Interstellar )


And an article :

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/sp...-right-results-in-black-hole-breakthrough-for

Under the guidance of theoretical physicist Kip Thorne, the special effects team produced an image of a black hole that no one expected.

In their efforts to make the film "Interstellar" a scientifically plausible piece of space drama, director Christopher Nolan and his production team inadvertently made a new discovery about black holes.

Under the guidance of theoretical physicist Kip Thorne (who also served as an executive producer on the film), Nolan set out to model what a black hole and wormhole might look like — a feat never done with any level of accuracy in Hollywood.

"One of the things that I found really inspiring about working with [Kip] is that, when I would ask him a question, he would never answer in the moment. He might give me his initial thought of, 'OK, I don't think that's possible, but let me go away,' " Nolan told the Hollywood Reporter. "He would always go away and spend a couple of days doing his own calculations and talking to other scientists and researching all the different papers that had been published on the subject, and then he would come back with an answer. He would never get frustrated [with] my endless questions."

In his effort to find answers to Nolan's questions, Thorne produced a series of equations for the modeling of a black hole that special effects artists were then able to feed into a rendering program. As VFX supervisor Paul Franklin explains in a new video, what they saw next surprised everyone.

"The gravity of the black hole draws in all the matter of the surrounding universe, and this spins out into a giant disc around the central sphere," explained Franklin. "And as it whirls in towards the center, the gas gets hotter and hotter — and this thing, the accretion disc around it, shines brilliantly. And then we found that if you render this whole thing, if you visualize it through this extraordinary gravitational lens, the gravity twists this glowing disc of gas into weird shapes — and you get this sort of rainbow of fire across the top of the black hole."

As UniverseToday reported, the special effects team at first thought there must be something wrong with their models, but Thorne confirmed the phenomenon. “This is our observational data,” he told the site of the movie's visualizations. “That’s the way nature behaves. Period.”

"The collaboration has produced a visualization of things that nobody had ever managed to do before," added VFX supervisor Paul Franklin. "We potentially may have discovered a couple of new things that were lurking there inside the mathematics, inside the physics."

Thorne predicts he'll be able to publish at least two technical papers based on "Interstellar's" special FX, one "aimed at the astrophysics community and one for the computer graphics community."

Check out the production team speaking about their discoveries in the video below:

Read more: http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/sp...-in-black-hole-breakthrough-for#ixzz3H8wc9vmf


I am definitely going to watch this movie. :thumbsup:
 
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I'm not entirely sure how to answer that.


Remember, black holes are spherically symmetric (probably), so the compression of spacetime is the same in all directions around them. Any changes to that due to motion would be extremely small (special relativity), and accelerating a black hole to near c would be very tough due to their large masses.

I was thinking, when two black hole collides, just for collision would they not experience extreme acceleration towards each other ?

I wonder what kind of spectacular events would happen when two black holes collide...

I wonder what happens when two neutron stars collide...

What do you think would happen ?
 

Biftheunderstudy

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Neutron stars and black hole mergers are simulated quite often. The physics is very demanding as it requires solving some very tough GR and in the case of neutron stars, nuclear physics. In addition, accretion disks and magnetic fields tend to confuse a lot of things.

That said, there are quite a few simulations out there that do this. I'm not sure if anyone has tried to visualize it with ray tracing or anything. My guess is that research computing with properly done ray tracing will be a lot more efficient than the ones used in the article here, but it's still a pretty immense problem.

Might be interesting to see

NS-NS and BH-BH collisions are generally thought to produce gravitational waves, so there is that.
 
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