This is America?

43st

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 2001
3,197
0
0
You don't need to register. Just click the continue without filling out the form button.

Anyhoo... I look at like this. America is not the land of freedom, it's the land of privilege. You have privilege to fly, drive, electricity, etc. You can also easily loose these privileges by not paying. It's up to you. Freedom doesn't exist, it's just a buzzword.
 

F117NightHawk

Senior member
Aug 18, 2001
216
0
0
Sorry, I didn't know about the registration page. I get taken right to the article when I click the link.

This Is America?
Published in Ideas on Liberty - July 2002
by James R. Otteson

I have long had an uneasy relationship with airport security. Before September 11,

I resisted the demand that I produce a government-issued ID, believing that it smacked too much of the ?Papers, please? of the former Soviet Union that Hollywood movies used to mock and we free Americans used to laugh at.

I also used to withhold permission to search my bags. On one occasion before September 11, in the Birmingham, Alabama, airport, the security guard was nonplussed when I answered no to her perfunctory request for permission to search my briefcase. I told her, and then her supervisor, and eventually a man who identified himself as the head of security at the airport, that I am protected by the Constitution from unreasonable searches and seizures. I showed him the Fourth Amendment in the copy of the Constitution I always take with me when I travel. It meant, I said, that unless they had either a warrant or probable cause to suspect me of some crime, they had no right to demand to search my bag. They admitted that they had neither, but, in what was then a shocking revelation and now seems only to have been ahead of its time, the chief of security said: ?Well, you have your law; I have mine.?

That was before September 11. Since then, all sanity?not to mention quaint notions like individual liberty, rights, and privacy?is fast going the way of the Edsel.

Several weeks ago in the airport in Traverse City, Michigan, my wife, my children of 8, 5, and 3, and I were all ?randomly? selected for a complete search of all our belongings. I have never been subject to more humiliating treatment in my life. We all?including my three-year-old son?had to take off our shoes, and hand them over for ?inspection.? I had to take off my sport coat and belt as well; and I had to hand over my wallet for it to be?well, who knows?

I made my usual protest about protections from unreasonable searches and seizures, but they fell on deaf ears. ?We?re just following orders,? I was told. That was the defense Nazi war criminals used, I said. Following orders does not relieve you of responsibility for your own actions. ?Are you calling me a Nazi?? one demanded. ?You call me a Nazi again and you?re never getting on that plane!?

Whose orders are you following? ?The FAA?s.? The FAA has instructed you to detain and search innocent American citizens and their families? ?Where have you been lately, buddy? Haven?t you heard of what happened in New York?? But wasn?t that tragedy, like most terrorist activities against America, perpetrated by people who were not native-born American citizens, and who were not traveling with their wives and small children?

By this point I was surrounded by approximately half a dozen security guards and several armed National Guardsmen. I was informed that if I did not ?shut up,? I would be made to ?go Greyhound the rest of [my] life.? I asked whether I was suspected of a crime. I was informed that asking so many questions ?about the Constitution and all? was making me suspicious. ?This is America now, buddy. You better shut up and get used to it!?

I asked whether they now intended not only to violate my right to be free of arbitrary searches and seizures, but also my right to free speech. I was then told?through clenched teeth?that if I said ?one more word,? they were going to ?lock me up? and make me ?go Greyhound the rest of [my] life.? ?I have that power,? one security guard growled at me ominously.

My children were frightened and on the verge of tears, and my wife, also growing uneasy, implored me to simply let them do what they wanted to do. So after a tense moment I stood aside, escorted by two armed National Guardsmen, while several security guards searched through our bags. I had to stand by silently while all of our things were taken out and examined, no doubt with extra thoroughness to punish me for my impudence. My shirts, pants, and socks were unfolded. A man with no gloves on rifled through my wife?s intimates; he even fingered through her feminine products.

After some 20 minutes of searching, they finished, and allowed us to go up the one flight of stairs and walk the 50 feet to our gate, where one of the very same people who had searched us downstairs now searched us again before we were allowed to get on the plane.

Security Reduced

What has become of us? A once free and proud people lets itself be subject to this kind of totalitarian treatment? Searching my children, my wife, and me does not increase security one iota: as anyone with any common sense could see, we are obviously not a threat. Indeed, wasting time searching people like us squanders the opportunity to check people who actually are likely suspects. So it might in fact reduce our level of security.

I flew again just recently. During yet another ?random? search of my briefcase, the security guard found a leather thong with weighted ends that I use to hold books open while I read them. (I am a college professor, so this comes in quite handy; my mother gave it to me as a gift many years ago.) The guard decided it could be used as a ?blackjack??apparently a device used to hit people on the head?and called his manager over.

I explained to the manager, as I had explained to the guard, what I use it for. I even got a book out of my briefcase and demonstrated. The manager said, ?That?s fine. Let him through.? ?But,? the guard protested, ?he could use it to knock somebody out!? And he provided his own rather dramatic demonstration of how one might use it. The manager replied, ?It?s no different from a fist?are you going to cut his arm off? Let him through.? I thanked the manager for her common sense.

Thus there is still some of that in airports?but it is increasingly uncommon. And the new security measures being adopted, which do not increase security and instead serve only to inconvenience law-abiding Americans, are quickly stamping out the last vestiges of reasonableness?not to mention liberty?at our airports.

The terrorist threat is real. As September 11 showed, it is all too real. We should not let our political sensibilities trump our good sense when actual lives are at stake. And we should not let our precious liberties?the very liberties that make this country worth dying for?be usurped by petty tyrants who are ?just following orders.?

The invasive and unconstitutional tactics of such airport security are an alarmingly large step toward creating just the kind of totalitarian society our enemies hope to create. We must not let it continue.

 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,358
8,447
126
you don't have to fly. if you want to fly, you have to go through security. are some security people going beyond what they should? yes. but you do not have to fly.
 

pulse8

Lifer
May 3, 2000
20,860
1
81
I look at it this way, if you don't want the possibility of having your bag searched, take the fvcking bus.

Just like when a girl goes into a club and they search her bag or in some clubs when they pat down the men, you don't have to go to the club if you don't want to comply with their rules.

It's not a violation of civil rights, it's how they are running their industry. If you don't like it, you don't have to do it.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Interesting and it would be a good article, but he doesn't say what we should do if we stopped random airport searches. The guy can bitch and moan but he doesn't have a solution. I agree that after sept.11 I am worried about freedom being taken away, but for right now this is the best we can do. All the pundits can moan loudly, but what have the proposed to do instead of what is being done currently?
 

jaeger66

Banned
Jan 1, 2001
3,852
0
0
Let's face it, slightly over 100% of people who blow up planes are from the Middle East. But since we can't hurt anyone's feelings we must go through the charade of confiscating nail clippers from little old ladies from Boca Raton.
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
2
81
Although the author DOES make a good point, he fails to realize that airports and air planes are private property and you're subject to the rule set imposed by the owners of that property.

There's nothing illegal about smoking a cigarrette but you better not do it in my house or car (they stink up the place).
 

Beau

Lifer
Jun 25, 2001
17,730
0
76
www.beauscott.com
All I have to say about this guy is: Get a fvcking clue. His opinion would be changed if he had someone close to him die in the attacks. What he is forgetting is that, while bag searches may be construed to being a violation of his civil liberties, it is also protecting the one god-given right that we all have: the right to live.
 

illusion88

Lifer
Oct 2, 2001
13,164
3
81
Originally posted by: ElFenix
you don't have to fly. if you want to fly, you have to go through security. are some security people going beyond what they should? yes. but you do not have to fly.

If I had to get to London in 3 days I do. If I wanted to go to Austrillia but couldnt take the extra 2 weeks off of work to the round trip boat ride, I would. Sience my car is broken, I would have to fly to Salt Lake this year to meet my buds at my Aunt house for a week of skiing, I would have to fly. I couldt take the extra 2 days off of work to drive there. I would have to fly.
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
2
81
Originally posted by: jaeger66
Let's face it, slightly over 100% of people who blow up planes are from the Middle East. But since we can't hurt anyone's feelings we must go through the charade of confiscating nail clippers from little old ladies from Boca Raton.

Mind if I check your figures on that one?
 

F117NightHawk

Senior member
Aug 18, 2001
216
0
0
Although the airlines are private entities, the security is government-mandated. Before the govt started interfering with air travel, people could board from the curb and there were no metal detectors or searches, and you could smoke to your heart's content on the plane. The customer was king and if the airline didn't serve you, you could move to another.

If you only had to go thru the security thing once, it wouldn't be so bad. But now people can be "randomly selected" for "additional screening". You know who they select, little old ladies with steel knee caps, mothers with babies and people they just don't like.

Now with govt interference, customer service is non-existant. Travellers are treated as potential criminals and terrorists.

As for solutions, I believe that only non-citizens should have to go thru security checkpoints. If you can prove you're a citizen, you should be able to go right on thru. Another great idea would be if CCW holders could bring their guns on the plane. Then they could stop the terrorists cold.
 

Jzero

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
18,834
1
0
Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
Although the author DOES make a good point, he fails to realize that airports and air planes are private property and you're subject to the rule set imposed by the owners of that property.

There's nothing illegal about smoking a cigarrette but you better not do it in my house or car (they stink up the place).

The planes and airports may actually be private property, but the security forces are now federalized. The guy even mentions Nat'l Guardsmen being in attendance. US Marshalls are also in on the game. There's enough government fingers stuck in the air transit industry to warrent a better writeoff then just saying "It's private, they can do what they want."

I don't like the idea of random searches, and I do not think they save any lives. It seems to me that a would-be terrorist would just as soon play the odds of not getting a random search then give up on his diabolical plan. It might deter small-time wackos, but I don't think it does jack at deterring the ones who will stop at nothing to destroy us.
Security has been used as an excuse to do all sorts of crap. What about that lady who asked if the pilots passed a sobriety check? How is that a threat to security?

I was "randomly" searched in London when I was 14. What you think a 14-year old kid is going to do?

My proposed solution is to stop hiring morons and start using some common sense. Everybody these days just wants to write a "Zero Tolerance" policy that they can simply enforce without ever actually having to give some thought or *GASP* effort.
 

Beau

Lifer
Jun 25, 2001
17,730
0
76
www.beauscott.com
Originally posted by: F117NightHawk

As for solutions, I believe that only non-citizens should have to go thru security checkpoints. If you can prove you're a citizen, you should be able to go right on thru. Another great idea would be if CCW holders could bring their guns on the plane. Then they could stop the terrorists cold.

So in your opinion, if you are a US Citizen, you are by default not a terrorist? Okay Timmothy McVeigh, you've got some real logic there.


 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Several weeks ago in the airport in Traverse City, Michigan, my wife, my children of 8, 5, and 3, and I were all ?randomly? selected for a complete search of all our belongings. I have never been subject to more humiliating treatment in my life. We all?including my three-year-old son?had to take off our shoes, and hand them over for ?inspection.? I had to take off my sport coat and belt as well; and I had to hand over my wallet for it to be?well, who knows?
Geeze, that's the most humiliating thing ever?
 

F117NightHawk

Senior member
Aug 18, 2001
216
0
0
Well I'd rather take my chances with the .01% chance that there might be a terrorist on board than be harassed by some goon with a badge. Sorry but I'm a Libertarian and that's the way we think. We believe in freedom and rights at all costs, even life.
 

Codewiz

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2002
5,758
0
76
I think the main point he is trying to get across is the lack of common sense. They search a guy with his wife and family. Is that likely to be a terrorist? No.

Why are we searching these people? People with families. It is pointless. Why are we searching 90 year old women? Have they ever been a threat? No.

We need to search the people that could be threats. People that are travelling alone. People that fit the description. F*ck pissing off people that fit the description. If I flew, I might fit the description since I am single and would be flying alone. That is fine.

My mom works for an airline. She has to help with some of these searches. Have they trained her for what to look for? No. She would not know what plastic explosives look like. But they make her perform searches.

Most of the searches right now are for appearance only. They are supposed to make you feel better about flying. It is retarded and stupid. It will not prevent another attack.

We need to look at history of who does this and search those types of people.
 

justint

Banned
Dec 6, 1999
1,429
0
0
Originally posted by: F117NightHawk
Although the airlines are private entities, the security is government-mandated. Before the govt started interfering with air travel, people could board from the curb and there were no metal detectors or searches, and you could smoke to your heart's content on the plane. The customer was king and if the airline didn't serve you, you could move to another.

If you only had to go thru the security thing once, it wouldn't be so bad. But now people can be "randomly selected" for "additional screening". You know who they select, little old ladies with steel knee caps, mothers with babies and people they just don't like.

Now with govt interference, customer service is non-existant. Travellers are treated as potential criminals and terrorists.

As for solutions, I believe that only non-citizens should have to go thru security checkpoints. If you can prove you're a citizen, you should be able to go right on thru. Another great idea would be if CCW holders could bring their guns on the plane. Then they could stop the terrorists cold.



Your kidding right? How long do you think it would be before terrorists found some citizen to knowingly or unknowingly carry a weapon or an explosive on a plane? You might as well have no security at all.

Also CCW holders are not qualified as a rule to use a firearm on an airplane. It's a frigging airplane. Joe Shmo should not be able to bring his Beretta on board, so he can shoot a hole through the side of the plane. Federal Air marshalls have the most stringent pistol quals of all federal law enforcement and carry special loads designed to do minimum collateral damage to the aircraft and other passengers.

 

jaeger66

Banned
Jan 1, 2001
3,852
0
0
Originally posted by: Beau6183

So in your opinion, if you are a US Citizen, you are by default not a terrorist? Okay Timmothy McVeigh, you've got some real logic there.

McVeigh wasn't a suicide bomber.
 

Beau

Lifer
Jun 25, 2001
17,730
0
76
www.beauscott.com
Originally posted by: F117NightHawk
Well I'd rather take my chances with the .01% chance that there might be a terrorist on board than be harassed by some goon with a badge. Sorry but I'm a Libertarian and that's the way we think. We believe in freedom and rights at all costs, even life.

Personally, I think that choking down a little humility is worth continuing my life, no matter what the chances. Nothing in this life comes for free, so I guess you just need to weigh your options and priorities.
 
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