This is America?

[NogginBoink]

While the author goes overboard, I agree.

Anyone notice how much our government resembles pre-WWII Nazi Germany lately?

All of a sudden after that attacks, people just "disappeared". The government is holding people without charging them with crimes, without releasing their names.

And John Ashcroft is doing it all in the name of "national security".

Very, very frightening. Orwell may have been off by a few years, but this is NOT the America that the founding fathers created.

 

[jaeger66]

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Does that make him not a terrorist?

Forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but every suicide bomber in the history of suicide bombings has been an Arabic male. They WANT to die. McVeigh blowing himself up on a plane was not what he wanted to accomplish.

 

[F117NightHawk]

Ashcroft really scares the hell outta me. I think Bush is just a puppet and Ashcroft is running things in reality.

 

[Beau]

Originally posted by: jaeger66

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Does that make him not a terrorist?

Forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but every suicide bomber in the history of suicide bombings has been an Arabic male. They WANT to die. McVeigh blowing himself up on a plane was not what he wanted to accomplish.

Your logic astounds me. Just because there hasn't been any US citizen responsible for a suicide bombing doesn't mean that it's not possible. And you may want to check your statistics before posting.

 

[Codewiz]

I want to know who actually thinks the security at the airport is effective??????

I need a good laugh at someone else's expense. If you agree it is not effective then why are we doing it the way we are..........

 

[Jzero]

Personally, I think that choking down a little humility is worth continuing my life, no matter what the chances. Nothing in this life comes for free, so I guess you just need to weigh your options and priorities.

How much humility are you willing to choke down just to go on living? Would you be willing to choke down enough humility just so that you could "live" in the Soviet Union?

In the last 200 years, many thousands of people have given up their lives to give us the freedom that we enjoy in America. I don't want those thousands of people's lives to have been lost in vain. This goes beyond choking down humility just so you can live. I'd just as soon give up my life so others can live free rather than have us all give up our freedoms just so we can stay alive.

Jaeger66, you are just full of impressive statistics, eh? I bet there's been a few non-Arab suicide bombers.

 

[Beau]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Personally, I think that choking down a little humility is worth continuing my life, no matter what the chances. Nothing in this life comes for free, so I guess you just need to weigh your options and priorities.

How much humility are you willing to choke down just to go on living? Would you be willing to choke down enough humility just so that you could "live" in the Soviet Union?

In the last 200 years, many thousands of people have given up their lives to give us the freedom that we enjoy in America. I don't want those thousands of people's lives to have been lost in vain. This goes beyond choking down humility just so you can live. I'd just as soon give up my life so others can live free rather than have us all give up our freedoms just so we can stay alive.

Jaeger66, you are just full of impressive statistics, eh? I bet there's been a few non-Arab suicide bombers.

I agree, but until there is a better method of security, what's the big deal with letting someone go through your bags? I mean seriously, what damage is it doing if you have nothing to hide?

 

[phantom309]

It just sounds like whining to me.

 

[F117NightHawk]

The reason they do it the way they are is so they can tell the public that they're "doing something". I wouldn't have as much of a problem with screenings if they weren't so invasive. If you just went thru a metal detector and put your bag thru the x-ray machine, fine. But now they make people take their shoes off and sometimes strip search people for no good reason. They also open people's suitcases and finger thru their stuff. If they want to do that, why bother with the damn metal detectors and x-ray machines? It's just done now to intimidate people.

 

[Codewiz]

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: Jzero

Personally, I think that choking down a little humility is worth continuing my life, no matter what the chances. Nothing in this life comes for free, so I guess you just need to weigh your options and priorities.

How much humility are you willing to choke down just to go on living? Would you be willing to choke down enough humility just so that you could "live" in the Soviet Union?

In the last 200 years, many thousands of people have given up their lives to give us the freedom that we enjoy in America. I don't want those thousands of people's lives to have been lost in vain. This goes beyond choking down humility just so you can live. I'd just as soon give up my life so others can live free rather than have us all give up our freedoms just so we can stay alive.

Jaeger66, you are just full of impressive statistics, eh? I bet there's been a few non-Arab suicide bombers.

I agree, but until there is a better method of security, what's the big deal with letting someone go through your bags? I mean seriously, what damage is it doing if you have nothing to hide?

Well to help out with the terrorists I think we should let the authorities search anyone's house for ANY REASON. I mean if you have nothing to hide why does it matter?

Great logic there.......

 

[Beau]

Originally posted by: Codewiz

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: Jzero

Personally, I think that choking down a little humility is worth continuing my life, no matter what the chances. Nothing in this life comes for free, so I guess you just need to weigh your options and priorities.

How much humility are you willing to choke down just to go on living? Would you be willing to choke down enough humility just so that you could "live" in the Soviet Union?

In the last 200 years, many thousands of people have given up their lives to give us the freedom that we enjoy in America. I don't want those thousands of people's lives to have been lost in vain. This goes beyond choking down humility just so you can live. I'd just as soon give up my life so others can live free rather than have us all give up our freedoms just so we can stay alive.

Jaeger66, you are just full of impressive statistics, eh? I bet there's been a few non-Arab suicide bombers.

I agree, but until there is a better method of security, what's the big deal with letting someone go through your bags? I mean seriously, what damage is it doing if you have nothing to hide?

Well to help out with the terrorists I think we should let the authorities search anyone's house for ANY REASON. I mean if you have nothing to hide why does it matter?

Great logic there.......

Okay, now you've taken it to an extreme. I don't agree with home searches without warrant. But that is a different situation entirely. You're not on a moving/flying object that could be turned into missile. You're not in a locked environment with hundreds of potential hostages. Sure you could be building a nuclear bomb in your basement, but that takes time, and an investigation could be made to track your materials purchases.

 

[Codewiz]

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: Codewiz

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: Jzero

Personally, I think that choking down a little humility is worth continuing my life, no matter what the chances. Nothing in this life comes for free, so I guess you just need to weigh your options and priorities.

How much humility are you willing to choke down just to go on living? Would you be willing to choke down enough humility just so that you could "live" in the Soviet Union?

In the last 200 years, many thousands of people have given up their lives to give us the freedom that we enjoy in America. I don't want those thousands of people's lives to have been lost in vain. This goes beyond choking down humility just so you can live. I'd just as soon give up my life so others can live free rather than have us all give up our freedoms just so we can stay alive.

Jaeger66, you are just full of impressive statistics, eh? I bet there's been a few non-Arab suicide bombers.

I agree, but until there is a better method of security, what's the big deal with letting someone go through your bags? I mean seriously, what damage is it doing if you have nothing to hide?

Well to help out with the terrorists I think we should let the authorities search anyone's house for ANY REASON. I mean if you have nothing to hide why does it matter?

Great logic there.......

Okay, now you've taken it to an extreme. I don't agree with home searches without warrant. But that is a different situation entirely. You're not on a moving/flying object that could be turned into missile. You're not in a locked environment with hundreds of potential hostages. Sure you could be building a nuclear bomb in your basement, but that takes time, and an investigation could be made to track your materials purchases.

Hogwash My point is that you agree with it in smaller circumstances but not in the big picture. That is how the democrats like to work. If you don't agree with searching people without cause then you shouldn't agree with it in any situation. You can do just as much harm in your home as a plane used as a missile. It all just takes planning. These people appear plan pretty well.

Answer my earlier question. Do you think that the current airport security measures are effective? If you do then I will just laugh at you. If you don't think they are then you are really off base supporting searches when you know they are ineffective.

 

[Beau]

Originally posted by: Codewiz

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Okay, now you've taken it to an extreme. I don't agree with home searches without warrant. But that is a different situation entirely. You're not on a moving/flying object that could be turned into missile. You're not in a locked environment with hundreds of potential hostages. Sure you could be building a nuclear bomb in your basement, but that takes time, and an investigation could be made to track your materials purchases.

Hogwash My point is that you agree with it in smaller circumstances but not in the big picture. That is how the democrats like to work. If you don't agree with searching people without cause then you shouldn't agree with it in any situation. You can do just as much harm in your home as a plane used as a missile. It all just takes planning. These people appear plan pretty well.

Answer my earlier question. Do you think that the current airport security measures are effective? If you do then I will just laugh at you. If you don't think they are then you are really off base supporting searches when you know they are ineffective.

It's not hogwash, it's a reasonable practice for the current and given situation. We have no way of knowing if these are effective, considering there is no proof to show that it thwarted any attempts because they just haven't happened. Sure we've missed some carry-on's but the kinks are still being worked out.

My point is that in order to enjoy the rest of our rights, we may be required at times to bend a little on SOME of them. And if you have a better solution to the problem that satisfies all parties, then voice your opinion, but until then, quit bitchen about how bad everyone has it right now, cuz it could be a lot worse.

 

[NogginBoink]

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: Codewiz

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: Jzero

Personally, I think that choking down a little humility is worth continuing my life, no matter what the chances. Nothing in this life comes for free, so I guess you just need to weigh your options and priorities.

How much humility are you willing to choke down just to go on living? Would you be willing to choke down enough humility just so that you could "live" in the Soviet Union?

In the last 200 years, many thousands of people have given up their lives to give us the freedom that we enjoy in America. I don't want those thousands of people's lives to have been lost in vain. This goes beyond choking down humility just so you can live. I'd just as soon give up my life so others can live free rather than have us all give up our freedoms just so we can stay alive.

Jaeger66, you are just full of impressive statistics, eh? I bet there's been a few non-Arab suicide bombers.

I agree, but until there is a better method of security, what's the big deal with letting someone go through your bags? I mean seriously, what damage is it doing if you have nothing to hide?

Well to help out with the terrorists I think we should let the authorities search anyone's house for ANY REASON. I mean if you have nothing to hide why does it matter?

Great logic there.......

Okay, now you've taken it to an extreme. I don't agree with home searches without warrant. But that is a different situation entirely. You're not on a moving/flying object that could be turned into missile. You're not in a locked environment with hundreds of potential hostages. Sure you could be building a nuclear bomb in your basement, but that takes time, and an investigation could be made to track your materials purchases.

Ah yes, the old "but this is different!" argument.

Right.

My opinion, as I've stated in other threads, is that we've got a bunch of people who used to be minimum wage, bottom of the ladder people who suddenly find themselves in positions of power and authority. When you get small minded people in position of authority, they abuse that authority... because they can.

And that's what we're seeing.

 

[Beau]

Originally posted by: NogginBoink

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: Codewiz

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: Jzero

Personally, I think that choking down a little humility is worth continuing my life, no matter what the chances. Nothing in this life comes for free, so I guess you just need to weigh your options and priorities.

How much humility are you willing to choke down just to go on living? Would you be willing to choke down enough humility just so that you could "live" in the Soviet Union?

In the last 200 years, many thousands of people have given up their lives to give us the freedom that we enjoy in America. I don't want those thousands of people's lives to have been lost in vain. This goes beyond choking down humility just so you can live. I'd just as soon give up my life so others can live free rather than have us all give up our freedoms just so we can stay alive.

Jaeger66, you are just full of impressive statistics, eh? I bet there's been a few non-Arab suicide bombers.

I agree, but until there is a better method of security, what's the big deal with letting someone go through your bags? I mean seriously, what damage is it doing if you have nothing to hide?

Well to help out with the terrorists I think we should let the authorities search anyone's house for ANY REASON. I mean if you have nothing to hide why does it matter?

Great logic there.......

Okay, now you've taken it to an extreme. I don't agree with home searches without warrant. But that is a different situation entirely. You're not on a moving/flying object that could be turned into missile. You're not in a locked environment with hundreds of potential hostages. Sure you could be building a nuclear bomb in your basement, but that takes time, and an investigation could be made to track your materials purchases.

Ah yes, the old "but this is different!" argument.

Right.

My opinion, as I've stated in other threads, is that we've got a bunch of people who used to be minimum wage, bottom of the ladder people who suddenly find themselves in positions of power and authority. When you get small minded people in position of authority, they abuse that authority... because they can.

And that's what we're seeing.

Probably. But who else is going to do it, and even more importantly, who's gonna pay for it?

 

[Codewiz]

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: Codewiz

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Okay, now you've taken it to an extreme. I don't agree with home searches without warrant. But that is a different situation entirely. You're not on a moving/flying object that could be turned into missile. You're not in a locked environment with hundreds of potential hostages. Sure you could be building a nuclear bomb in your basement, but that takes time, and an investigation could be made to track your materials purchases.

Hogwash My point is that you agree with it in smaller circumstances but not in the big picture. That is how the democrats like to work. If you don't agree with searching people without cause then you shouldn't agree with it in any situation. You can do just as much harm in your home as a plane used as a missile. It all just takes planning. These people appear plan pretty well.

Answer my earlier question. Do you think that the current airport security measures are effective? If you do then I will just laugh at you. If you don't think they are then you are really off base supporting searches when you know they are ineffective.

It's not hogwash, it's a reasonable practice for the current and given situation. We have no way of knowing if these are effective, considering there is no proof to show that it thwarted any attempts because they just haven't happened. Sure we've missed some carry-on's but the kinks are still being worked out.

My point is that in order to enjoy the rest of our rights, we may be required at times to bend a little on SOME of them. And if you have a better solution to the problem that satisfies all parties, then voice your opinion, but until then, quit bitchen about how bad everyone has it right now, cuz it could be a lot worse.

It is not reasonable. It is VERY UNREASONABLE. You want to ride the fence on an issue that should be clear cut. I have family members that work for the airlines. I hear first hand what goes on. I can tell you it is NOT effective.

We need to stop random searches and search people that are part of the risk factor. We also need to implement the scanning of ALL luggage via machines. This is in the process but hasn't been implemented. If we scan everyone's luggage there will no longer be a need to rummage through people's items. There will no longer be a need for strip searches except in extreme circumstances.

What has been implemented was just done to save face. Do you think that the national guard is actually going to prevent anything from getting on the plane when all they do is stand there?

Wake up. ;-) No need to take any of this personally. I am just stating my point of view as the son of an airline employee.

I have actually applied to be a security agent. I hope to help out with some common sense at the security check points.

 

[F117NightHawk]

Originally posted by: CodeWiz


Ah yes, the old "but this is different!" argument.

Right.

My opinion, as I've stated in other threads, is that we've got a bunch of people who used to be minimum wage, bottom of the ladder people who suddenly find themselves in positions of power and authority. When you get small minded people in position of authority, they abuse that authority... because they can.

And that's what we're seeing.

The problem is you're never gonna get anyone but bottom of the ladder people to go for a job like this. You certainly won't find PhDs doing it. Jobs like this appeal to minimum wage teenagers and idiots who can barely read their high school diploma.

 

[Beau]

Originally posted by: Codewiz

We need to stop random searches and search people that are part of the risk factor.

How would we do this? Racial profiling? That's really effective

We also need to implement the scanning of ALL luggage via machines. This is in the process but hasn't been implemented. If we scan everyone's luggage there will no longer be a need to rummage through people's items. There will no longer be a need for strip searches except in extreme circumstances.

I totally agree. No descrimination. No exceptions.

What has been implemented was just done to save face. Do you think that the national guard is actually going to prevent anything from getting on the plane when all they do is stand there?

As you said, other things are in the works right now. And the NG position is to help with airport security, not luggage scanning. If a situation occurs where brute force is needed, they'll step in.

Wake up. ;-) No need to take any of this personally. I am just stating my point of view as the son of an airline employee.
I have actually applied to be a security agent. I hope to help out with some common sense at the security check points.

No offense taken. Just a good debate about a dead horse.

 

[Codewiz]

Originally posted by: F117NightHawk

Originally posted by: CodeWiz


Ah yes, the old "but this is different!" argument.

Right.

My opinion, as I've stated in other threads, is that we've got a bunch of people who used to be minimum wage, bottom of the ladder people who suddenly find themselves in positions of power and authority. When you get small minded people in position of authority, they abuse that authority... because they can.

And that's what we're seeing.

The problem is you're never gonna get anyone but bottom of the ladder people to go for a job like this. You certainly won't find PhDs doing it. Jobs like this appeal to minimum wage teenagers and idiots who can barely read their high school diploma.

I just graduated from college and I am having trouble finding a job. I have a BS in computer science. Since I haven't found a job, I decided to apply for a screener job. Of course they haven't called me back. I find that a little funny they don't immediately call back a person that has a BS degree.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: pulse8
I look at it this way, if you don't want the possibility of having your bag searched, take the fvcking bus.

Just like when a girl goes into a club and they search her bag or in some clubs when they pat down the men, you don't have to go to the club if you don't want to comply with their rules.

It's not a violation of civil rights, it's how they are running their industry. If you don't like it, you don't have to do it.

But wait. The searches are not airline policy, they are government mandated. The minute the feds took over the airport security, this became a clear violation of our 4th Amendment rights.

On the point about clubs, you are correct. On the point about airports, you are not.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

This author is a crybaby and an idiot. The Supreme Court has consistenly held that an airport, like a border crossing, is an area where we have a lessened expectation of privacy, and in the interest of public safety, all people who choose to travel on planes are subject to search. The FBI, DEA and Customs have for many years used the tactic of employing undercover agents at airports to identify potential smugglers, and designated their checked luggage for inspection. None of this violates the Fourth Amendment.

I love the idea of a self-professed anti-government libertarian calling himself "F117NightHawk" - isn't the stealth fighter/bomber a tool of government oppression?

 

[JoeKing]

I don't mind the extra security, and I actually do think they are effective. Seeing uniformed men walking around with M16s would probably turn off many would be terrorist. Though the chances of terrorist using the same method twice is minimal imagine what would happen to the industry if another tragedyt like 911 were to happen again. It just seems they're trying to cover the bases as best they can.

As time continues I'm sure things will return to normal, but jeeze people it's been less then 1 yr since this all happened. It is also the case that in times of conflict or unrest some liberties are strained, however its been shown that these liberties are again restored during times of peace.

As for this professor I bet he also doesn't believe in reciting the Pledge of Allegiance

 

[HiveMaster]

The planes and airports may actually be private property, but the security forces are now federalized. The guy even mentions Nat'l Guardsmen being in attendance. US Marshalls are also in on the game. There's enough government fingers stuck in the air transit industry to warrent a better writeoff then just saying "It's private, they can do what they want."

I don't like the idea of random searches, and I do not think they save any lives. It seems to me that a would-be terrorist would just as soon play the odds of not getting a random search then give up on his diabolical plan. It might deter small-time wackos, but I don't think it does jack at deterring the ones who will stop at nothing to destroy us.
Security has been used as an excuse to do all sorts of crap. What about that lady who asked if the pilots passed a sobriety check? How is that a threat to security?

I was "randomly" searched in London when I was 14. What you think a 14-year old kid is going to do?

My proposed solution is to stop hiring morons and start using some common sense. Everybody these days just wants to write a "Zero Tolerance" policy that they can simply enforce without ever actually having to give some thought or *GASP* effort.

The kind of people who think that the new security measures make the skies safer are the same kind of "folks" who believe any warm fuzzy BS thrown their way.

Ignorant fools and bumpkins.

You know, the kinds of people that vote Republican.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Don_Vito
This author is a crybaby and an idiot. The Supreme Court has consistenly held that an airport, like a border crossing, is an area where we have a lessened expectation of privacy, and in the interest of public safety, all people who choose to travel on planes are subject to search. The FBI, DEA and Customs have for many years used the tactic of employing undercover agents at airports to identify potential smugglers, and designated their checked luggage for inspection. None of this violates the Fourth Amendment.

The right of the people to be secure in their person, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.

I fail to see exceptions here for travel, borders, or cars. Can you point them out, comrade?

 

[Beau]

Originally posted by: HiveMaster


The kind of people who think that the new security measures make the skies safer are the same kind of "folks" who believe any warm fuzzy BS thrown their way.

Ignorant fools and bumpkins.

You know, the kinds of people that vote Republican.

Funny you say that... as that was the same claim made towards democrats just a little further up the screen.