This is why Democrats/liberals will continue to lose

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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,324
15,123
136
Give people a choice and I define that as a person which is not self absorbed, can say "I was wrong, but I will not make that error again" then doesn't. Someone who is a leader, not a platform and bullet points, someone who has lead, not just headed something. Demonstrated character and ethics. That holds his or her party as accountable as the opposition. To pick the right thing over the party line. That doesn't look at America as a demographic to divide against one another, some one of unity who understands that "those poor white people" may be exactly that. That blacks do face problems which cannot be dismissed. Work constructively for people because they are people, some guy in a lot to sell a used car to.

Do these people exist? All descendants of Diogenes grab your lanterns before it's too late.

They do exist and you didn't vote for her.
 
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Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,726
2,501
126
US Attorneys are political appointees, a patronage job. Traditionally each incoming President pretty much cleans house. Not firing them all at once, as Sessions promised he would not do, and we also had the special case this time around where Trump promised in person twice not to fire a particular US attorney, and Sessions made the same in person promise, and both broke their promises.

As far as federal judges go, the nominations have to be approved by the Senate. Obama had the problem of GOP pocket vetoes (a single Senator being able to put an indefinite hold on a nominee without stating any reason) plus McConnell did everything he could get away with to freeze the nomination process.

Sooner or later the Dems will get control of the Senate again, and the GOP will find out what it is like on the other side of their repressive tactics.

OP's post is like pinning the blame on the victim in a rape case.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,324
15,123
136
US Attorneys are political appointees, a patronage job. Traditionally each incoming President pretty much cleans house. Not firing them all at once, as Sessions promised he would not do, and we also had the special case this time around where Trump promised in person twice not to fire a particular US attorney, and Sessions made the same in person promise, and both broke their promises.

As far as federal judges go, the nominations have to be approved by the Senate. Obama had the problem of GOP pocket vetoes (a single Senator being able to put an indefinite hold on a nominee without stating any reason) plus McConnell did everything he could get away with to freeze the nomination process.

Sooner or later the Dems will get control of the Senate again, and the GOP will find out what it is like on the other side of their repressive tactics.

OP's post is like pinning the blame on the victim in a rape case.

Rape is a reality and at some point, after being rapped multiple times on separate occasions, it should be expected that the victim does something to start protecting themselves. At this point a rape whistle would be a step up for the Democrats.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
ivwshane, Obama was able to quite successfully remake the federal courts, especially the all important circuit courts up to the DC level, greatly aided by Harry Reid going nuclear in 2013. All is not lost, really. Read here for further clarification, most important parts cited below:

Ultimately, most of those battles over judges have really been about Obama, a nasty front in the larger partisan war that has raged throughout his presidency. And as with most of the foreign and domestic policy battles of the Obama era, the result, after a lot of bellicose rhetoric and political brinksmanship, has been a lot of change. Obama has already appointed 329 judges to lifetime jobs, more than one third of the judiciary, and they’re already moving American jurisprudence in Obama’s direction. He got two left-leaning women onto the Court: Sonia Sotomayor, the first Hispanic justice, and Elena Kagan, his former solicitor general. He also flipped the partisan balance of the nation’s 13 courts of appeals; when he took office, only one had a majority of Democratic appointees, and now nine do. Just last week, two Obama appointees to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals struck down some of North Carolina’s strict new election law, calling it a discriminatory effort to stop blacks from voting.
 

Stokely

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2017
1,777
2,331
136
So what's the solution? Get just as dirty as their opponents?

Unfortunately...probably so. Unfortunately for me, because the GOP's blatant lying and jingoistic simplistic bullshit bothers me as much as their actual policies.

A large number of people in this country have said: "Lie to us. Tell us what we want to hear, and what makes us feel good, and we'll vote for you." Similarly, there is increasingly-little "fact" left anymore. Everything is suspect, and anything that goes against your side is "fake." It's not usually that difficult to tell if a story is actually fake or not--does it have actual sources, for instance?--but people don't want to make an effort.

As long as that trend continues, we are fucked as a society.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
In other words, many of these Obama nominations were lifetime appointments, so by law the judges themselves get to decide if they want to retire to let Trump nominate conservatives. Obviously Trump can only nominate those who choose to step down, and I can tell you for a fact many don't want to retire right now because of him. Perhaps that's why Kennedy didn't retire from SCOTUS this summer, not wanting to taint his libertarian/independent legacy with a Trump ideologue. Of course, Kennedy might prove me wrong and retire next summer, but still!
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
They do exist and you didn't vote for her.

I disagree. Some time ago IIRC we had a discussion where I found her uninspiring and you starting talking about how people aren't looking at her platform and emotions have no place or something like that.

The qualities of a good leader appeal on an Intellectual and empathetic level. The need for connection is not some stupid quality, but something which allows for trust to be established. Without that we would be extinct as a species because we'd have no sense, real sense for what was happening.

And like Joe I found this vital quality virtually absent. If she was genuine she is unable to show it and at the risk of boasting I believe I'm at the high end of perception, and in any case Bill had that appeal, and many did not get that from Hillary.
 
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agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
I disagree. Some time ago IIRC we had a discussion where I found her uninspiring and you starting talking about how people aren't looking at her platform and emotions have no place or something like that.

The qualities of a good leader appeal on an Intellectual and empathetic level. The need for connection is not some stupid quality, but something which allows for trust to be established. Without that we would be extinct as a species because we'd have no sense, real sense for what was happening.

And like Joe I found this vital quality virtually absent. If she was genuine she is unable to show it and at the risk of boasting I believe I'm at the high end of perception, and in any case Bill had that appeal, and many did not get that from Hillary.

Bill and Barrack are literary two of the more talented politicians to have ever lived.
 

J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
2,681
640
91
[QUOTE="Hayabusa Rider, post: 39016912, member: 10614"The qualities of a good leader appeal on an Intellectual and empathetic level. The need for connection is not some stupid quality, but something which allows for trust to be established. Without that we would be extinct as a species because we'd have no sense, real sense for what was happening.[/QUOTE]

That is a load of bullshit, in most countries they vote for actual policies because that is what will affect them, not the personality of the leaders.

In the US this personality bullshit has been taken to a point where policy does not mater AT ALL anymore, someone who would do everything you wanted might not be someone you'd vote for because you dislike their looks or someone once said something bad about them and now you are voting for the other candidate.

That's not democracy, that is cult followings getting their way every once in a while no matter what the policies are.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
[QUOTE="Hayabusa Rider, post: 39016912, member: 10614"The qualities of a good leader appeal on an Intellectual and empathetic level. The need for connection is not some stupid quality, but something which allows for trust to be established. Without that we would be extinct as a species because we'd have no sense, real sense for what was happening.

That is a load of bullshit, in most countries they vote for actual policies because that is what will affect them, not the personality of the leaders.

In the US this personality bullshit has been taken to a point where policy does not mater AT ALL anymore, someone who would do everything you wanted might not be someone you'd vote for because you dislike their looks or someone once said something bad about them and now you are voting for the other candidate.

That's not democracy, that is cult followings getting their way every once in a while no matter what the policies are.[/QUOTE]


Then continue on, make no changes and tell the voter how full of shit they are. Let me know how that works. That seems to be a key difference between the sides. Republicans feed on the sentiments of the public and the Democrats are inclined to look down on them for it. The people must come to you on your terms, you cannot change to meet them.

There is no balance and no balance is wanted.

That of course is your right, but you do not have the right to a favorable outcome. Might want to temper that hubris a bit.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Bill and Barrack are literary two of the more talented politicians to have ever lived.

They were. People who met them (I met Bill) came away with the sense that they were wanted and for more than their vote, that there was an interest in them for themselves. I think that despite any human imperfections they pretty much walked that talk. I certainly do not despise them for it.
 
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agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
They were. People who met them (I met Bill) came away with the sense that they were wanted and for more than their vote, that there was an interest in them for themselves. I think that despite any human imperfections they pretty much walked that talk. I certainly do not despise them for it.

So you see the problem with holding others to that standard.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
So you see the problem with holding others to that standard.

It is a real problem. The question then becomes a matter of standards. While rare I do not believe these kinds of people are extinct. If that is true, do we (meaning those who wish to see better future) find these people, encourage them and put them in office? I'm not a partisan but I do identify with many who are democrats and with for more than party advancement. Would it not be to their benefit to seek rather than settle?

I can't answer for them, just myself, but I think that my preference would ultimately provide the better result. Naturally not always, sometimes the bad guy wins, but not always.

What is important and how do we "get there from here"? I believe it's worth thinking about.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
It is a real problem. The question then becomes a matter of standards. While rare I do not believe these kinds of people are extinct. If that is true, do we (meaning those who wish to see better future) find these people, encourage them and put them in office? I'm not a partisan but I do identify with many who are democrats and with for more than party advancement. Would it not be to their benefit to seek rather than settle?

I can't answer for them, just myself, but I think that my preference would ultimately provide the better result. Naturally not always, sometimes the bad guy wins, but not always.

What is important and how do we "get there from here"? I believe it's worth thinking about.

They're not "extinct", but rather rare as once-in-a-lifetime status might imply. I mean, who the hell else makes a speech like the 2004 DNC masterpiece. Contemporary democrats were just incredibly lucky to get two within theirs.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,775
49,434
136
I'm consistently amazed how much time and energy is spent by liberals trying to analyze the political messaging of the Democratic Party.

I hate to break it to you but 'TRUMP IS RESHAPING THE FEDERAL JUDICIARY!' is not going to be the winning slogan of 2018.
 
Reactions: Jaskalas

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,775
49,434
136
That is a load of bullshit, in most countries they vote for actual policies because that is what will affect them, not the personality of the leaders.

Speaking of loads of bullshit do you have any empirical evidence that backs that up? People in most countries act similarly, which is to say, tribally.

In the US this personality bullshit has been taken to a point where policy does not mater AT ALL anymore, someone who would do everything you wanted might not be someone you'd vote for because you dislike their looks or someone once said something bad about them and now you are voting for the other candidate.

That's not democracy, that is cult followings getting their way every once in a while no matter what the policies are.

Policy never mattered. Do you think the average voter was ever, throughout all of history, weighing policy consequences when voting? What fantasy world is this?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
They're not "extinct", but rather rare as once-in-a-lifetime status might imply. I mean, who the hell else makes a speech like the 2004 DNC masterpiece. Contemporary democrats were just incredibly lucky to get two within theirs.

Perhaps there's something of "nature or nurture" here. I don't pretend to know the answer but I wonder if proper identification and development can bring more people to the point we need? That's mostly rhetorical I know, but it might be worth trying.

Oh well this in not an issue I can solve.

Disregard previous posts
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,570
7,631
136
Policy never mattered. Do you think the average voter was ever, throughout all of history, weighing policy consequences when voting? What fantasy world is this?

You're telling us Trump's claimed policies and dog whistles during the campaign didn't strike true with people?

Our policies need to supplant those, turn them obsolete and inferior to our own solutions. When people believe ours are better, the country moves Left.
 

J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
2,681
640
91
Speaking of loads of bullshit do you have any empirical evidence that backs that up? People in most countries act similarly, which is to say, tribally.

That is complete and utter bullshit, in most nations the people vote based on policy, not based on the origin of the parties, this changed in the 60's and there is a load of data on political movements on it, do I really need to give you hundreds of millons of links or are you capable of using google all on your own?



Policy never mattered. Do you think the average voter was ever, throughout all of history, weighing policy consequences when voting? What fantasy world is this?

Outside of the US, absolutely and you can see it watching the oldest nations of Europe having tens of parties forced to work together to get the will of an overwhelming majority to become the policy that rules those nations.

Policy matters alot in the UK too and within a couple of elections I don't see the Tories or Labour having any form of majority at all, it's happened before in other nations where overwhelming support turned into a parliamentary break and new parties arose that took different voters parts but kept the base ideals of liberalism.

To be quite honest here, the only two western or westernized nations in the world moving away from liberalism are the US and Poland and Poland have had hundreds of thousands of people protesting that move and the EU threatening to remove their voting rights completely.

I'm sorry but alleviating requirements for bodily integrity to get some shame votes is a fucking travesty.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,775
49,434
136
That is complete and utter bullshit, in most nations the people vote based on policy, not based on the origin of the parties, this changed in the 60's and there is a load of data on political movements on it, do I really need to give you hundreds of millons of links or are you capable of using google all on your own?

By all means give me hundreds of millions of links.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,775
49,434
136
You're telling us Trump's claimed policies and dog whistles during the campaign didn't strike true with people?

Our policies need to supplant those, turn them obsolete and inferior to our own solutions. When people believe ours are better, the country moves Left.

No, it's that they didn't care about the policies, they cared about the emotional basis for them.
 
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nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,585
7,825
136
The constant internal sniping back-and-forth about minor policy details is the reason why "Thread Title".

Just read the posts. Very little difference in actual policy. Very little difference in ultimate goals. Just more 2016 primary replays, and "no, I'm the real liberal!" platitudes.
 
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