This is why Linux will never take over the desktop...

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Kapav

Member
Oct 7, 2016
27
1
11
I feel that Linux has found a pretty nice home, or at least a decent adoption rate, in scientific research if nothing else. Obviously HPC is Linux, but even the daily desktop environment of many researchers I know is some flavor of Linux.
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
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I feel that Linux has found a pretty nice home, or at least a decent adoption rate, in scientific research if nothing else. Obviously HPC is Linux, but even the daily desktop environment of many researchers I know is some flavor of Linux.
The easy access to source code makes it easy for researchers to customize for their needs.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
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I wonder if this is an attempt to try to take it over. Like if they use and understand a lot of Linux stuff they could technically start filing patents on stuff within Linux and basically force distros out of business. The IP laws are retarded enough that they would probably allow for something like this. The open source nature of Linux would make it hard enough to actually stop, but they could potentially make it illegal to possess.
 

o306

Member
Mar 23, 2015
52
10
36
@Red Squirrel

Definitely a legitimate possibility, no doubt. That is why some people view their moves skeptically.


As much as I don't trust Microsoft or any corporation for that matter to make the "right" decision, this Linux move in my view is not malicious.

My guess is that someone at Microsoft realized that desktop computing and applications in general are becoming platform-agnostic. Your app needs to run anywhere and everywhere, from the refrigerator to the phone. Closing off your system to the few generally doesn't work and will eventually have to go away. For now, the only ones who can get away with that is Apple and even they are breaking down, slowly, but happening none the less.

The last thing any tech company wants to do is fall behind in that regard. With Ballmer gone, it seems like Microsoft is trying to (or forced to) catch up instead of trying to make it a "Windows world" like the old days which are gone forever.


For all the talk about Linux never taking over the desktop, you have a lot of big companies making major changes to their product lines that allows Linux users and users of any operating system to use their applications.

Adobe is beta testing Photoshop Streaming/Photoshop Cloud for Linux through its education exchange program.

People can keep laughing at Linux all they want, but for the past 10+ years things in the tech world have been changing and Linux is firmly here to stay, no matter how shitty anyone thinks it is. The progress might be slow sometimes and the systems may be imperfect, but it has been happening whether you know it or not.
 
Reactions: whm1974

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
1,570
96
I wonder if this is an attempt to try to take it over. Like if they use and understand a lot of Linux stuff they could technically start filing patents on stuff within Linux and basically force distros out of business. The IP laws are retarded enough that they would probably allow for something like this. The open source nature of Linux would make it hard enough to actually stop, but they could potentially make it illegal to possess.
Let's say that Linux does become illegal to possess without paying for a license , just how would MS even be able to get anyone to pay up?
 

ControlD

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2005
5,440
44
91
I wonder if this is an attempt to try to take it over. Like if they use and understand a lot of Linux stuff they could technically start filing patents on stuff within Linux and basically force distros out of business. The IP laws are retarded enough that they would probably allow for something like this. The open source nature of Linux would make it hard enough to actually stop, but they could potentially make it illegal to possess.

I'm not sure that would be possible considering the licensing structure Linux is working under. I suppose MS could start releasing proprietary software for Linux, but I don't believe they can simply come in and start filing patents on existing software. Just because most of Linux is FOSS doesn't mean it isn't protected.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,544
3,471
136
I wish Linux would take over or at least become more usable from a software support perspective. I don't like the direction MS is going with Windows 10, but half the reason I have a decent computer at all is for Lightroom/Photoshop and video games, neither of which are supported well or at all. Other than that, I like the direction distros like Mint are going way more than where Windows is headed and have really enjoyed using it during brief stints of dual boot. Eventually I always get tired of restarting to fire up a game or edit some photos and go back to Windows only.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,931
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I wish Linux would take over or at least become more usable from a software support perspective. I don't like the direction MS is going with Windows 10, but half the reason I have a decent computer at all is for Lightroom/Photoshop and video games, neither of which are supported well or at all. Other than that, I like the direction distros like Mint are going way more than where Windows is headed and have really enjoyed using it during brief stints of dual boot. Eventually I always get tired of restarting to fire up a game or edit some photos and go back to Windows only.
That's pretty much how I feel too about windows and is one of the reasons I switched to Linux.

But I do find my productivity has gone down with Linux, there is simply no suitable programs to replace certain programs in windows. Like photoshop, I don't care what people say, Gimp is far from intuitive compared to Photoshop. It's decent but it's still not that great. Simple things like dragging elements, resizing rotating etc is just terrible user experience compared to Photoshop where you can do it all easily in one go. Text in Gimp is also garbage, like, zero effects like borders, glow etc. Basic stuff.

Video editing, same thing, not that great of options in Linux. There's Kdenlive which is half decent but rather limited and has weird quirks. Actually I find most Linux programs seem to have weird quirks that make the user experience less smooth, they are often simple things that could easily be fixed.

Cad programs... most of the ones in Linux suck too. Same idea, just bad user experience. For example in Autocad you can start a line, then type a number to make it a certain lenght. The snapping and such is really nice too. Linux Cad programs just lack in that stuff. You have to manually drag the line to the length you want it. The snapping is well, less snappy. etc.

Needless to say I often find myself having to open up a VM if I just want to get something done. I can whip up a CAD drawing in Autocad 2000 (yes 2000) way faster than any of the Linux CAD programs I've found.

There's a RAW image editor called Raw Studio that is really good, but sadly it's not available for Mint 18. That is actually making me consider switching distros because all the other options are really not intuitive at all. The workflow just sucks in most of them, Raw Studio was perfect for workflow and options. I don't know why there is no package for Mint 18. Even the PPA does not have a package for 18.
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
11,782
2,685
136
You guys are whining awful lot. Linux is easy to use these days, hell my dad and stepmother use Linux and both of them can barely use a computer. Very rarely do I have to use the CLI.
Linux is for total dolts using the simplest of programs or knowledgeable nerds customizing the living crap out of it, like I said before. For a user who needs more, wants to customize or start delving "deeper", but does not have the "computer intuition" some people have, a book and sometimes wine(the software) IS necessary. You parent and step parent fall into the former. They likely just fire up their web browser and Open Office when they need it, and since the print drivers are already set up, pretty much everything is done. Android is basically Linux for dolts using a phone.

Technically, Linux is a "misnomer" since it is the various distros that turn it from a mere kernel into an "experience", whatever that experience actually is.
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
11,782
2,685
136
That isn't an example of Linux being glitchy. That's an example of a piss poor driver.

You can make the point that hardware support isn't as good under Linux as Windows and that would be true. Still, if Linux is going to be your OS of choice making good hardware decisions has to be part of it. I could say the same thing about myself and my Creative sound card. I wish I had researched Linux compatibility before I bought it.
Piss poor drivers when the "generic" Windows driver gives a decent display consistently. Badly prepared software is still badly prepared software. Bad software is like Harbor Freight's hose clamps. They'll break and that proneness to breaking outweighs the supposed benefit of acquiring the product in the first place.

Or how about that "open source" Flash driver sucking compared to Adobe's official one back about four years ago.
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
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Linux is for total dolts using the simplest of programs or knowledgeable nerds customizing the living crap out of it, like I said before. For a user who needs more, wants to customize or start delving "deeper", but does not have the "computer intuition" some people have, a book and sometimes wine(the software) IS necessary. You parent and step parent fall into the former. They likely just fire up their web browser and Open Office when they need it, and since the print drivers are already set up, pretty much everything is done. Android is basically Linux for dolts using a phone.

Technically, Linux is a "misnomer" since it is the various distros that turn it from a mere kernel into an "experience", whatever that experience actually is.
Yes I'm aware Linux is just the kernel while distros are the full OS.

I installed Linux on my dad's computer after I gotten tired of reinstalling WinXP all the time about four years ago. He hasn't complained since.
 

ControlD

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2005
5,440
44
91
Linux is for total dolts using the simplest of programs or knowledgeable nerds customizing the living crap out of it, like I said before.

Even a few years ago I might have agreed in general with you. The newer distros however I find need almost no customization and can be used be a wide range of people.

I would consider myself in the later category, I am the family nerd. I have done almost nothing to my Mint install over the last couple of months save for installing software and drivers, same thing I would do on a Windows machine. Everything else just sort of worked from the first boot.
 
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DidelisDiskas

Senior member
Dec 27, 2015
233
21
81
Whenever there is a topic about linux and desktop, there will be a bunch of comments about the lack of photoshop, autocad, or some video editing software. Just how many people use those tools? I understand gaming, since the number of people who play games is massive, but graphic designers and video editors?
 
Feb 25, 2011
16,823
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Whenever there is a topic about linux and desktop, there will be a bunch of comments about the lack of photoshop, autocad, or some video editing software. Just how many people use those tools? I understand gaming, since the number of people who play games is massive, but graphic designers and video editors?
Sort of matters, yeah. For every graphic designer using Photoshop, there's about a hundred "Rich Uncle Bob" hobbyists (prosumers!) who buy every other new version, even though they only use three features that were all in a ten year old version of Photoshop Elements. And for every Uncle Bob there's a dozen or so church basement types who are hacking it with a ten year old (pirated?) version of Elements, Office 2003,* and MS Publisher.**

Same is true for other stuff. (Video editing, audio editing, etc.) As a sort-of-hobby-musician, among other things, I buy new "prosumer" music software/gear on a pretty cheapskate 5-10 year rotation. Driver support and backwards-compatibility are thus important for me, and that will largely dictate what kind of OS/platform I have as my primary computing setup. I don't think I'm terribly unique.

*And god forbid anybody change the UI. Their brains would explode.
** Or Broderbund Print Shop. May god have mercy on their souls.
 
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DidelisDiskas

Senior member
Dec 27, 2015
233
21
81
Sort of matters, yeah. For every graphic designer using Photoshop, there's about a hundred "Rich Uncle Bob" hobbyists (prosumers!) who buy every other new version, even though they only use three features that were all in a ten year old version of Photoshop Elements. And for every Uncle Bob there's a dozen or so church basement types who are hacking it with a ten year old (pirated?) version of Elements, Office 2003,* and MS Publisher.**

Same is true for other stuff. (Video editing, audio editing, etc.) As a sort-of-hobby-musician, among other things, I buy new "prosumer" music software/gear on a pretty cheapskate 5-10 year rotation. Driver support and backwards-compatibility are thus important for me, and that will largely dictate what kind of OS/platform I have as my primary computing setup. I don't think I'm terribly unique.

I'm still not convinced that they make up a big part of computing world. If i would have to make an uneducated guess, i'd say they are a miniscule amount compared to MS Office and gaming users.

As a side note, for simple audio manipulation i found Linux to be pretty good with qjackctl, audacity, hydrogen, pure-data and a plethora of other great free tools. My audio card and midi keyboard work pretty well too. Though setting up jack could be a bit easier.
 
Feb 25, 2011
16,823
1,493
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I'm still not convinced that they make up a big part of computing world. If i would have to make an uneducated guess, i'd say they are a miniscule amount compared to MS Office and gaming users.

Maybe it's the "retail tech support" experience talking, but I assume anybody over the age of 45 has a home computing environment that involves a 5 year old Dell and some bargain bin graphics design software with pretty fonts. And it's very definitely a more common usage model than PC gaming, especially as you go down the income quintiles.

As a side note, for simple audio manipulation i found Linux to be pretty good with qjackctl, audacity, hydrogen, pure-data and a plethora of other great free tools. My audio card and midi keyboard work pretty well too. Though setting up jack could be a bit easier.

I've been using Audacity for years for audio recording. My dad is actually more into the music stuff than I am. (it's his vocation, it's just my hobby.) He started the switch to Linux about a year ago and I'm waiting for him to find a piece of notation/arranging software that he can stand to use. Finale is basically the shiznit.
 

DidelisDiskas

Senior member
Dec 27, 2015
233
21
81
Maybe it's the "retail tech support" experience talking, but I assume anybody over the age of 45 has a home computing environment that involves a 5 year old Dell and some bargain bin graphics design software with pretty fonts. And it's very definitely a more common usage model than PC gaming, especially as you go down the income quintiles.

Perhaps, i'm not intimately familiar with how americans do their computing, so i will avoid further speculation on my part. Looking at some statistics would be interesting though.

I've been using Audacity for years for audio recording. My dad is actually more into the music stuff than I am. (it's his vocation, it's just my hobby.) He started the switch to Linux about a year ago and I'm waiting for him to find a piece of notation/arranging software that he can stand to use. Finale is basically the shiznit.

Of all the notating software i have sampled, i actually found musescore to be the best. It's rather intuitive, has a nice looking interface, is not overcomplicated, it's lightweight and free. Plus avaivable for linux. I actually liked more than the proprietary stuff like finale or sibelius.
 
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JimmiG

Platinum Member
Feb 24, 2005
2,024
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106
I wish Linux would take over or at least become more usable from a software support perspective. I don't like the direction MS is going with Windows 10, but half the reason I have a decent computer at all is for Lightroom/Photoshop and video games, neither of which are supported well or at all. Other than that, I like the direction distros like Mint are going way more than where Windows is headed and have really enjoyed using it during brief stints of dual boot. Eventually I always get tired of restarting to fire up a game or edit some photos and go back to Windows only.

Same here, except instead of graphics software, I rely on a lot of DAW/audio software that just doesn't work on Linux.

When you end up having to reboot into Windows several times/day, dual booting just isn't worth it. If I'm already in Windows 10 and want to play a game for a bit or browse Facebook or whatever, I might as well do it in Windows and not waste time rebooting into Linux first. The experience will be exactly the same. This is especially true if when I'm done, I know I'll be using some Windows-only DAW, which would require yet another reboot.

Also, all my scheduled backups etc. are set up on Windows, so they won't run if I spend too much time noodling around in Linux. I could run them under Linux instead, but then I'd have the opposite problem when running Windows. Dual booting is like owning a second house that you have to maintain.
 
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repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,544
3,471
136
Same here, except instead of graphics software, I rely on a lot of DAW/audio software that just doesn't work on Linux.

When you end up having to reboot into Windows several times/day, dual booting just isn't worth it. If I'm already in Windows 10 and want to play a game for a bit or browse Facebook or whatever, I might as well do it in Windows and not waste time rebooting into Linux first. The experience will be exactly the same. This is especially true if when I'm done, I know I'll be using some Windows-only DAW, which would require yet another reboot.

Also, all my scheduled backups etc. are set up on Windows, so they won't run if I spend too much time noodling around in Linux. I could run them under Linux instead, but then I'd have the opposite problem when running Windows. Dual booting is like owning a second house that you have to maintain.

Oh yeah, backups and storage sharing are another thing. I'm really liking storage spaces in Windows 10 for quick and easy mirroring of a couple 4TB drives, which obviously Linux can't access. And anything similar for Linux, windows won't be able to natively access. I was going to build a mini file server / ZFS type of setup that can present the network share such that it's accessible to both Windows and Linux, but it seems so unnecessary for what is essentially a 4TB RAID1 ...
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,931
12,383
126
www.anyf.ca
Linux SHOULD be good for file sharing, you'd think it would be as it does have better file systems and raid solutions like mdadm, but it's archaic permission system can make it a nightmare. Lack of proper inheritance is a pain too. I always curse when I'm trying to setup a storage share where more than one user/process needs access to, because it can't easily be done easily compared to Windows. User1 writes a file, it takes user1's permissions, and not a general permission for the entire structure. So user2 comes along and writes a file, and the permissions will be that user's. You decide to go as root to copy something, it takes root's permissions... you end up with files with all sorts of different permissions and one user can't alter the file of another even if that's what you want. (ex: a general file share). You end up having to have cron scripts that run to fix all the permissions. There are complicated ways around this but it's really dirty and unintuitive. There is something called ACLs but problem is it's not native so it won't work in all situations and often won't even be available.

Windows/NTFS blows away Linux in that respect.
 

you2

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2002
5,763
981
126
I personally find windows to be a huge waste of my time; and strongly prefer linux. The only reason I run windows on a system is due to gaming (and those games not supporting linux). If all the major games supported linux I would drop windows and never go back.

It is so much easier for me to modify hardware; adjust the filesystem layout; define the security model et all on a linux box (compared to a windows box). The only thing windows seems to do better is for those folks who require integrated mail/calendar.


It's only free if you disregard the concept that time isn't money.
 

you2

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2002
5,763
981
126
Don't nkow about windows 10 but windows 7 has no issue accessing my zfs raid system (via samba).

Oh yeah, backups and storage sharing are another thing. I'm really liking storage spaces in Windows 10 for quick and easy mirroring of a couple 4TB drives, which obviously Linux can't access. And anything similar for Linux, windows won't be able to natively access. I was going to build a mini file server / ZFS type of setup that can present the network share such that it's accessible to both Windows and Linux, but it seems so unnecessary for what is essentially a 4TB RAID1 ...
 

JimmiG

Platinum Member
Feb 24, 2005
2,024
112
106
I personally find windows to be a huge waste of my time; and strongly prefer linux. The only reason I run windows on a system is due to gaming (and those games not supporting linux). If all the major games supported linux I would drop windows and never go back.

It is so much easier for me to modify hardware; adjust the filesystem layout; define the security model et all on a linux box (compared to a windows box). The only thing windows seems to do better is for those folks who require integrated mail/calendar.

Well if you're constantly changing the hardware, re-defining the security model and changing the filesystem layout, then something else is wrong and causing you to waste time.

I very rarely have to modify or change anything, regardless of whether I'm on Linux or Windows. Both systems are at a point where things usually "just work". If something does break, it's usually easier to fix on Windows. Not because Windows is inherently easier to troubleshoot, but because myself and most people on the net are more familiar with Windows.
 
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