This is why Ron Paul HAS to be President!

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Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: mc00

He voted no on FEDERAL FUNDING of stem cell research <-- so basically tax payer won't pay for it how about those tax payer want to pay for it? they don't have an saying?

Ron Paul is a real conservative. He wants to make Federal Government smaller not bigger. By wanting the federal government to fund more and more stuff you're making the federal government bigger. His stated goal is to reduce taxes and even kill off the income tax.

If that ever happened you can take your hard earned money and fund an organization that supports stem cell research yourself.

Ron Paul has the same failing virtually every "small government" advocate has, they focus on "small" instead of "efficient". Ron Paul and his small government supporters don't want to prune unnecessary programs, and limit necessary ones to only what's needed to most efficiently do their jobs. Rather, Ron Paul just wants to take a fireaxe to the whole thing, until it fits into the appropriate "size". Nevermind if the remaining organization is the Department of Giving Money to Haliburton or the guy that cuts the grass on the national mall, the size is the important thing. "Small government", as a movement, seems to be based on the idea that it's better to waste $100 on a useless government program than to spend $200 where it can actually do some good.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,133
220
106
Originally posted by: mc00
Originally posted by: adrunkgerbil
Originally posted by: mc00
I having serious issue voting for this guy.. I have debate before with someone in this forum(he was right about this guy ) but I just can't vote just because
http://ontheissues.org/Ron_Paul.htm
1. he pro-life I'm pro-choice
2. he doesn't support embryonic stem cell research
3. against gay marriage I'm all about freedom/ people had choice who bang/love/live/etc..
some other stuff but those top 3 bothers me.
but everything else ron paul has right idea as founding father wanted for our nation.

He feels abortion is up to each state, as well as gay marriage. He voted no on FEDERAL FUNDING of stem cell research.


well he feel is up to the each state shouldn't be up to the state is only up to the mother is going carry for 9 month and feed/ pay bill unless she join walfare.. matter fact the woman should pay for there own abortion not the tax payer to make it fair for non-supporter..

gay marriage shouldn't be up to the state.. as long gay couple pay there fee just like rest of us is all good with me.

He voted no on FEDERAL FUNDING of stem cell research <-- so basically tax payer won't pay for it how about those tax payer want to pay for it? they don't have an saying?


First off ... Ron Paul is just a Bush Jr Wanna Be. The guy runs his household on strictly FAITH. What do you think he is gonna do when he gets in? Read us quotes from the bible like bush did? Sigh

Second... He wants each state to vote weather abortion is ya or nay? Is this fool out his mind? Bush did this with gay marriage... Just like woman, gay people are a minority. Jeee I wonder what will happen if we leave the decision of having an abortion up to the state?

You'd be damned lucky if a few states passed it so, you'd need to travel from your state possibly thousands miles to get an abortion? Wow, this is brilliant, He's got my vote! Sheesh.....


As for ... matter fact the woman should pay for there own abortion not the tax payer to make it fair for non-supporter.. Non supporter? A right? Hey, Jr... I'd be happy to have my taxes pay for an abortion ... Look at the alternative. Ever figure out what it cost to have a kid? Why more then aborting ... Ever figure out what the tab is for unwanted kid that state is gonna have to pay for from day 1 to 18 - graduation? Get it together.... Most mothers having abortions are the ultra poor or needy...

Abortions are still leagle in the US at least last time I checked... Ron Paul is too extreme.

As for stem cell, bush wanna be again? Check... This guy is way over the top. He wouldn't get my vote even if ran third party.
 

mc00

Senior member
Jan 25, 2005
277
0
0
Originally posted by: ericlp
Originally posted by: mc00
Originally posted by: adrunkgerbil
Originally posted by: mc00
I having serious issue voting for this guy.. I have debate before with someone in this forum(he was right about this guy ) but I just can't vote just because
http://ontheissues.org/Ron_Paul.htm
1. he pro-life I'm pro-choice
2. he doesn't support embryonic stem cell research
3. against gay marriage I'm all about freedom/ people had choice who bang/love/live/etc..
some other stuff but those top 3 bothers me.
but everything else ron paul has right idea as founding father wanted for our nation.

He feels abortion is up to each state, as well as gay marriage. He voted no on FEDERAL FUNDING of stem cell research.


well he feel is up to the each state shouldn't be up to the state is only up to the mother is going carry for 9 month and feed/ pay bill unless she join walfare.. matter fact the woman should pay for there own abortion not the tax payer to make it fair for non-supporter..

gay marriage shouldn't be up to the state.. as long gay couple pay there fee just like rest of us is all good with me.

He voted no on FEDERAL FUNDING of stem cell research <-- so basically tax payer won't pay for it how about those tax payer want to pay for it? they don't have an saying?


First off ... Ron Paul is just a Bush Jr Wanna Be. The guy runs his household on strictly FAITH. What do you think he is gonna do when he gets in? Read us quotes from the bible like bush did? Sigh

Second... He wants each state to vote weather abortion is ya or nay? Is this fool out his mind? Bush did this with gay marriage... Just like woman, gay people are a minority. Jeee I wonder what will happen if we leave the decision of having an abortion up to the state?

You'd be damned lucky if a few states passed it so, you'd need to travel from your state possibly thousands miles to get an abortion? Wow, this is brilliant, He's got my vote! Sheesh.....


As for ... matter fact the woman should pay for there own abortion not the tax payer to make it fair for non-supporter.. Non supporter? A right? Hey, Jr... I'd be happy to have my taxes pay for an abortion ... Look at the alternative. Ever figure out what it cost to have a kid? Why more then aborting ... Ever figure out what the tab is for unwanted kid that state is gonna have to pay for from day 1 to 18 - graduation? Get it together.... Most mothers having abortions are the ultra poor or needy...

Abortions are still leagle in the US at least last time I checked... Ron Paul is too extreme.

As for stem cell, bush wanna be again? Check... This guy is way over the top. He wouldn't get my vote even if ran third party.

dude, believe me those are issue why I can not vote for this guy...
and about the abortion that was just an idea if the government make it so easy and pay for it and they would be "oh, if I get pregnant I just get an abortion my Medicaid covers it"if the woman or the guy would have pay for it they would probably would try to use every protection available to them to avoid unwanted pregnancy and that way they avoid arm and leg and stop being careless.. me and wife take every precaution to prevent another pregnancy I have told her you have many option to abort I'm with you either way if you want it or don't want it.

I honestly can't vote for someone if going run the country solely on faith because they would make decision solely because god/bible said so... no thanks..
 

Duddy

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2002
4,675
9
81
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: mc00

He voted no on FEDERAL FUNDING of stem cell research <-- so basically tax payer won't pay for it how about those tax payer want to pay for it? they don't have an saying?

Ron Paul is a real conservative. He wants to make Federal Government smaller not bigger. By wanting the federal government to fund more and more stuff you're making the federal government bigger. His stated goal is to reduce taxes and even kill off the income tax.

If that ever happened you can take your hard earned money and fund an organization that supports stem cell research yourself.

QFT! Ron Paul truly is our last chance for a free America, anyone else will just cripple the system more than the flaming ball of crap it is now.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,502
1
81
Has a candidate with 1 to 2% numbers at this stage in the election cycle ever won the White House?
 

mwtgg

Lifer
Dec 6, 2001
10,491
0
0
Originally posted by: mc00
dude, believe me those are issue why I can not vote for this guy...
and about the abortion that was just an idea if the government make it so easy and pay for it and they would be "oh, if I get pregnant I just get an abortion my Medicaid covers it"if the woman or the guy would have pay for it they would probably would try to use every protection available to them to avoid unwanted pregnancy and that way they avoid arm and leg and stop being careless.. me and wife take every precaution to prevent another pregnancy I have told her you have many option to abort I'm with you either way if you want it or don't want it.

I honestly can't vote for someone if going run the country solely on faith because they would make decision solely because god/bible said so... no thanks..

Ron Paul is a man who votes not on faith, but on constitutionality. Otherwise known as ACTUALLY DOING HIS JOB.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,709
8
81
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: morkinva
Personally, I'd much rather believe Ron Paul, a guy on the House Financial Services Committee, than "know-it-all" rainsford

Ron Paul: Flawed Federal Reserve Policy Puts Paper Before Gold -- Posted by United States Congressman Ron Paul on Jun 1st, 2007

A hundred years ago it was called ?dollar diplomacy.? After World War II, and especially after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1989, that policy evolved into ?dollar hegemony.? But after all these many years of great success, our dollar dominance is coming to an end.

It has been said, rightly, that he who holds the gold makes the rules. In earlier times it was readily accepted that fair and honest trade required an exchange for something of real value.

First it was simply barter of goods. Then it was discovered that gold held a universal attraction, and was a convenient substitute for more cumbersome barter transactions. Not only did gold facilitate exchange of goods and services, it served as a store of value for those who wanted to save for a rainy day.

Though money developed naturally in the marketplace, as governments grew in power they assumed monopoly control over money. Sometimes governments succeeded in guaranteeing the quality and purity of gold, but in time governments learned to outspend their revenues. New or higher taxes always incurred the disapproval of the people, so it wasn?t long before Kings and Caesars learned how to inflate their currencies by reducing the amount of gold in each coin - always hoping their subjects wouldn?t discover the fraud. But the people always did, and they strenuously objected.

This helped pressure leaders to seek more gold by conquering other nations. The people became accustomed to living beyond their means, and enjoyed the circuses and bread. Financing extravagances by conquering foreign lands seemed a logical alternative to working harder and producing more. Besides, conquering nations not only brought home gold, they brought home slaves as well. Taxing the people in conquered territories also provided an incentive to build empires. This system of government worked well for a while, but the moral decline of the people led to an unwillingness to produce for themselves. There was a limit to the number of countries that could be sacked for their wealth, and this always brought empires to an end. When gold no longer could be obtained, their military might crumbled. In those days those who held the gold truly wrote the rules and lived well.

That general rule has held fast throughout the ages. When gold was used, and the rules protected honest commerce, productive nations thrived. Whenever wealthy nations - those with powerful armies and gold - strived only for empire and easy fortunes to support welfare at home, those nations failed.

Today the principles are the same, but the process is quite different. Gold no longer is the currency of the realm; paper is. The truth now is: ?He who prints the money makes the rules? - at least for the time being. Although gold is not used, the goals are the same: compel foreign countries to produce and subsidize the country with military superiority and control over the monetary printing presses.

Since printing paper money is nothing short of counterfeiting, the issuer of the international currency must always be the country with the military might to guarantee control over the system. This magnificent scheme seems the perfect system for obtaining perpetual wealth for the country that issues the de facto world currency. The one problem, however, is that such a system destroys the character of the counterfeiting nation?s people - just as was the case when gold was the currency and it was obtained by conquering other nations. And this destroys the incentive to save and produce, while encouraging debt and runaway welfare.

The pressure at home to inflate the currency comes from the corporate welfare recipients, as well as those who demand handouts as compensation for their needs and perceived injuries by others. In both cases personal responsibility for one?s actions is rejected.

When paper money is rejected, or when gold runs out, wealth and political stability are lost. The country then must go from living beyond its means to living beneath its means, until the economic and political systems adjust to the new rules - rules no longer written by those who ran the now defunct printing press.

?Dollar Diplomacy,? a policy instituted by William Howard Taft and his Secretary of State Philander C. Knox, was designed to enhance U.S. commercial investments in Latin America and the Far East. McKinley concocted a war against Spain in 1898, and (Teddy) Roosevelt?s corollary to the Monroe Doctrine preceded Taft?s aggressive approach to using the U.S. dollar and diplomatic influence to secure U.S. investments abroad. This earned the popular title of ?Dollar Diplomacy.? The significance of Roosevelt?s change was that our intervention now could be justified by the mere ?appearance? that a country of interest to us was politically or fiscally vulnerable to European control. Not only did we claim a right, but even an official U.S. government ?obligation? to protect our commercial interests from Europeans.

This new policy came on the heels of the ?gunboat? diplomacy of the late 19th century, and it meant we could buy influence before resorting to the threat of force. By the time the ?dollar diplomacy? of William Howard Taft was clearly articulated, the seeds of American empire were planted. And they were destined to grow in the fertile political soil of a country that lost its love and respect for the republic bequeathed to us by the authors of the Constitution. And indeed they did. It wasn?t too long before dollar ?diplomacy? became dollar ?hegemony? in the second half of the 20th century.

This transition only could have occurred with a dramatic change in monetary policy and the nature of the dollar itself.

Congress created the Federal Reserve System in 1913. Between then and 1971 the principle of sound money was systematically undermined. Between 1913 and 1971, the Federal Reserve found it much easier to expand the money supply at will for financing war or manipulating the economy with little resistance from Congress - while benefiting the special interests that influence government.

Dollar dominance got a huge boost after World War II. We were spared the destruction that so many other nations suffered, and our coffers were filled with the world?s gold. But the world chose not to return to the discipline of the gold standard, and the politicians applauded. Printing money to pay the bills was a lot more popular than taxing or restraining unnecessary spending. In spite of the short-term benefits, imbalances were institutionalized for decades to come.

The 1944 Bretton Woods agreement solidified the dollar as the preeminent world reserve currency, replacing the British pound. Due to our political and military muscle, and because we had a huge amount of physical gold, the world readily accepted our dollar (defined as 1/35th of an ounce of gold) as the world?s reserve currency. The dollar was said to be ?as good as gold,? and convertible to all foreign central banks at that rate. For American citizens, however, it remained illegal to own. This was a gold-exchange standard that from inception was doomed to fail.

The U.S. did exactly what many predicted she would do. She printed more dollars for which there was no gold backing. But the world was content to accept those dollars for more than 25 years with little question - until the French and others in the late 1960s demanded we fulfill our promise to pay one ounce of gold for each $35 they delivered to the U.S. Treasury. This resulted in a huge gold drain that brought an end to a very poorly devised pseudo-gold standard.

It all ended on August 15, 1971, when Nixon closed the gold window and refused to pay out any of our remaining 280 million ounces of gold. In essence, we declared our insolvency and everyone recognized some other monetary system had to be devised in order to bring stability to the markets.

Amazingly, a new system was devised which allowed the U.S. to operate the printing presses for the world reserve currency with no restraints placed on it - not even a pretense of gold convertibility, none whatsoever! Though the new policy was even more deeply flawed, it nevertheless opened the door for dollar hegemony to spread.

Realizing the world was embarking on something new and mind boggling, elite money managers, with especially strong support from U.S. authorities, struck an agreement with OPEC to price oil in U.S. dollars exclusively for all worldwide transactions. This gave the dollar a special place among world currencies and in essence ?backed? the dollar with oil. In return, the U.S. promised to protect the various oil-rich kingdoms in the Persian Gulf against threat of invasion or domestic coup. This arrangement helped ignite the radical Islamic movement among those who resented our influence in the region. The arrangement gave the dollar artificial strength, with tremendous financial benefits for the United States. It allowed us to export our monetary inflation by buying oil and other goods at a great discount as dollar influence flourished.

This post-Bretton Woods system was much more fragile than the system that existed between 1945 and 1971. Though the dollar/oil arrangement was helpful, it was not nearly as stable as the pseudo gold standard under Bretton Woods. It certainly was less stable than the gold standard of the late 19th century.

During the 1970s the dollar nearly collapsed, as oil prices surged and gold skyrocketed to $800 an ounce. By 1979 interest rates of 21% were required to rescue the system. The pressure on the dollar in the 1970s, in spite of the benefits accrued to it, reflected reckless budget deficits and monetary inflation during the 1960s. The markets were not fooled by LBJ?s claim that we could afford both ?guns and butter.?

Once again the dollar was rescued, and this ushered in the age of true dollar hegemony lasting from the early 1980s to the present. With tremendous cooperation coming from the central banks and international commercial banks, the dollar was accepted as if it were gold.

Fed Chair Alan Greenspan, on several occasions before the House Banking Committee, answered my challenges to him about his previously held favorable views on gold by claiming that he and other central bankers had gotten paper money - i.e. the dollar system - to respond as if it were gold. Each time I strongly disagreed, and pointed out that if they had achieved such a feat they would have defied centuries of economic history regarding the need for money to be something of real value. He smugly and confidently concurred with this.

In recent years central banks and various financial institutions, all with vested interests in maintaining a workable fiat dollar standard, were not secretive about selling and loaning large amounts of gold to the market even while decreasing gold prices raised serious questions about the wisdom of such a policy. They never admitted to gold price fixing, but the evidence is abundant that they believed if the gold price fell it would convey a sense of confidence to the market, confidence that they indeed had achieved amazing success in turning paper into gold.

Increasing gold prices historically are viewed as an indicator of distrust in paper currency. This recent effort was not a whole lot different than the U.S. Treasury selling gold at $35 an ounce in the 1960s, in an attempt to convince the world the dollar was sound and as good as gold. Even during the Depression, one of Roosevelt?s first acts was to remove free market gold pricing as an indication of a flawed monetary system by making it illegal for American citizens to own gold. Economic law eventually limited that effort, as it did in the early 1970s when our Treasury and the IMF tried to fix the price of gold by dumping tons into the market to dampen the enthusiasm of those seeking a safe haven for a falling dollar after gold ownership was re-legalized.

Once again the effort between 1980 and 2000 to fool the market as to the true value of the dollar proved unsuccessful. In the past 5 years the dollar has been devalued in terms of gold by more than 50%. You just can?t fool all the people all the time, even with the power of the mighty printing press and money creating system of the Federal Reserve.

Even with all the shortcomings of the fiat monetary system, dollar influence thrived. The results seemed beneficial, but gross distortions built into the system remained. And true to form, Washington politicians are only too anxious to solve the problems cropping up with window dressing, while failing to understand and deal with the underlying flawed policy. Protectionism, fixing exchange rates, punitive tariffs, politically motivated sanctions, corporate subsidies, international trade management, price controls, interest rate and wage controls, super-nationalist sentiments, threats of force, and even war are resorted to-all to solve the problems artificially created by deeply flawed monetary and economic systems.

Regards,

United States Congressman Ron Paul of Texas
for The Daily Reckoning

I hardly claim to know it all. In fact, while I'd say that while in my particular area of expertise I'm usually one of the smartest guys in the room, outside of that I'm not exactly Einstein. But what I CAN do is listen carefully and apply critical thinking...even in areas where I'm NOT an expert, the information is easy to find, the problem (as usual) isn't information, it's analysis.

LegendKiller touched on it, but I think it's worth repeating. Even if I didn't know ANYTHING about the monetary system or the gold standard that preceded it, there is one phrase Ron Paul keeps using that should be suspect "real value". That's a null term in economics, because it implies there are things which have universally accepted value to all people...things that can never lose value and everyone values equally. Because gold has served as a currency in the past, you might assume it has this universal "real value", but you'd be wrong. Before the Europeans started killing off the "savages" around the world, gold was viewed as mainly ornamental by a lot of cultures. Sure, it was pretty, but they didn't use it as currency...early European explorers were amazed to be given tons of gold for free, because the natives didn't value it the same way they did. In other words, gold had value only to the extent that the culture in question THOUGHT it had value. Pegging anything to gold is turtles all the way down, because gold itself was treated EXACTLY as modern currency is today.

Just stop and think about it. Why does gold have "real value"? Because everyone thinks so. You can't eat it, it's pretty worthless for making tools or weapons, about the only native property it has which is valuable is that it's easy to work and has decent electrical properties. But it's valuable because we've all agreed that it is...just like dollars of yen or euros or whatever. Dollars are just pieces of paper with funny drawings, but they have value because I can take them to Best Buy and exchange a pile of them for a 50" plasma TV. Same with gold...and just like dollars, the value it holds fluctuates. If it had "real value", this wouldn't be true...a plasma TV would always be worth X ounces of gold, varying slightly over time as TV technology changes. But that's obviously not the case, a plasma TV has "real value", gold does not.

But you know what the biggest problem with the "gold standard" is, it doesn't change with the a changing economy. Gold is a commodity, and it's scarcity and value are in no way linked to ANYTHING you might want to purchase in a modern economy. I can't measure the value of my car in ounces of gold any more than I can measure it in barrels of oil, the value of oil and gold can't be controlled or linked to a constantly changing economy...which is why commodity prices are measured in currency and not the other way around. You want to know why we got off the gold standard? It wasn't for a nefarious purpose or part of some capitalist conspiracy theory, it was because, while it was useful in a medieval economy, gold simply could not form the underly base of a modern economy.

And I'd caution you to avoid citing congressmen as unimpeachable resources, they have shown themselves to be singularly incompetent when it comes to the things they are supposed to understand. If they held any other job in that field besides sitting on a congressional committee, they would have been fired long ago.

So this is what LegendKiller dragged me over here to see the great Ron Paul killer posts? Oh boy... First of all, I did read some of these before but I didn't respond because I actually do not fully agree with re-instating the gold standard but not for any of your reasons but because the supply of gold today is too readily manipulated with paper contracts & leasing.

But let me make a few counter points here. Gold has "Real value" because of it's history and don't give me any of that BS with some head hunting tribe in Indonesia who doesn't value gold. Is that how you gauge value to modern economies?! And to correct your history the Spanish weren't just given tons of gold for free they took it by force. The Aztecs and Incans valued gold so highly it was used to decorate their most sacred temples. And they had alot of gold for their population, they were almost swimming in it. The main reason for gold's "real value" is through history it has become the most convenient medium of exchange. Lets not forget the point of money here folks, money is simply a medium of exchange to get around the problems with bartering- like what if I want to trade for fish but all I have is a horse and I dont want so many fish that my horse is worth? And civilization has used many different things to provide that medium of exchange... sea shells, salt, sticks... And pople as smart as they are have discovered that metals are most convenient because they are convenient to carry, they are durable and with precious metals in particular, they are scarce. The scarcity is a main reason why it has true value. You cant just go into a room and produce gold like you can print paper money... Then as people traded with gold they wanted a safe place to keep it so banks began to form where they stored your gold and issued you a paper receipt. This would be great if you can trust the banks but unfortunately many banks took advantage of their position and issued more paper receipts than they actually had gold, thus they introduced the concept of inflation. More paper money being thrown around than there was gold in their vaults. And thus was born the problem of bank runs, when people who became suspicious of these bankers and wanted their gold back only to find there was not enough gold in the vault for the paper receipts they had! This is very simple basic stuff and the same ideas apply to modern banking to this day. It's part of the shaky fractional reserve system our federal reserve system uses. Today's banking system is so f'ed up that this secretive federal reserve system, which is neither a part of the federal government nor doe sit hold any reserves, can basically "print money" like there is no tomorrow (and don't take that literally, since alot of the money introduced by the federal reserve is not actually physically created on paper) because there is nothing to stop them. Some people argue they need that power to be able to stabilize stabilize the economy by pumping more liquidity when it's needed but the fact is they have only been pumping more and more liquidity increasing inflation to disgusting levels. A person with $100,000 now would have the same purchasing power as a person with a million dollars today, if he had that money 40 years ago. And no, your savings account rate would not keep up with that kind of inflation and of course your wages arent going to automatically go up with inflation. That's why it's referred to as the invisible tax.

But I agree with Ron Paul that using a gold standard would be better than our current system especially if silver was also used as reserve. But it is more important to get rid of the Federal Reserve and replace it with a transparent system with checks and balances to provide for oversight by Congress or a committee. Federal Reserve is too secretive and they are not stabilizing our economy. On their watch we had the Great Depression, numerous major crashes, tons of bank failures...
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
It's silly to argue over economic theories as they change constantly. At the time there were very real reasons why we had to drop the gold standard. But as is outlined in Paul's essay, the dollar is getting raped and has been for the past few years. The Euros and China are also pushing ever more forcefully to detach the dollar being used as the price for oil. When that happens, our currency will plummet and our economy will be ruined.

Suddenly your craptastic goods from China will still be as craptastic as ever but will cost twice as much.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: lozina
So this is what LegendKiller dragged me over here to see the great Ron Paul killer posts? Oh boy... First of all, I did read some of these before but I didn't respond because I actually do not fully agree with re-instating the gold standard but not for any of your reasons but because the supply of gold today is too readily manipulated with paper contracts & leasing.

But let me make a few counter points here. Gold has "Real value" because of it's history and don't give me any of that BS with some head hunting tribe in Indonesia who doesn't value gold. Is that how you gauge value to modern economies?! And to correct your history the Spanish weren't just given tons of gold for free they took it by force. The Aztecs and Incans valued gold so highly it was used to decorate their most sacred temples. And they had alot of gold for their population, they were almost swimming in it. The main reason for gold's "real value" is through history it has become the most convenient medium of exchange. Lets not forget the point of money here folks, money is simply a medium of exchange to get around the problems with bartering- like what if I want to trade for fish but all I have is a horse and I dont want so many fish that my horse is worth? And civilization has used many different things to provide that medium of exchange... sea shells, salt, sticks... And pople as smart as they are have discovered that metals are most convenient because they are convenient to carry, they are durable and with precious metals in particular, they are scarce. The scarcity is a main reason why it has true value. You cant just go into a room and produce gold like you can print paper money... Then as people traded with gold they wanted a safe place to keep it so banks began to form where they stored your gold and issued you a paper receipt. This would be great if you can trust the banks but unfortunately many banks took advantage of their position and issued more paper receipts than they actually had gold, thus they introduced the concept of inflation. More paper money being thrown around than there was gold in their vaults. And thus was born the problem of bank runs, when people who became suspicious of these bankers and wanted their gold back only to find there was not enough gold in the vault for the paper receipts they had! This is very simple basic stuff and the same ideas apply to modern banking to this day. It's part of the shaky fractional reserve system our federal reserve system uses. Today's banking system is so f'ed up that this secretive federal reserve system, which is neither a part of the federal government nor doe sit hold any reserves, can basically "print money" like there is no tomorrow (and don't take that literally, since alot of the money introduced by the federal reserve is not actually physically created on paper) because there is nothing to stop them. Some people argue they need that power to be able to stabilize stabilize the economy by pumping more liquidity when it's needed but the fact is they have only been pumping more and more liquidity increasing inflation to disgusting levels. A person with $100,000 now would have the same purchasing power as a person with a million dollars today, if he had that money 40 years ago. And no, your savings account rate would not keep up with that kind of inflation and of course your wages arent going to automatically go up with inflation. That's why it's referred to as the invisible tax.

But I agree with Ron Paul that using a gold standard would be better than our current system especially if silver was also used as reserve. But it is more important to get rid of the Federal Reserve and replace it with a transparent system with checks and balances to provide for oversight by Congress or a committee. Federal Reserve is too secretive and they are not stabilizing our economy. On their watch we had the Great Depression, numerous major crashes, tons of bank failures...

This is all you've got?
Let me summarize.


1. Pontification.

2. Gold has always been a good medium for societies, especially small ones with fractions of current population.

3. Pontification.

4. Gold will always be the best system, despite the fact that demand for gold has risen significantly and would even more so if it currencies were pegged to it. The amount of gold in circulation per person has much lower than in any point in history, but that doesn't matter.

5. Pontification.

6. Completely ignore the fact that if Gold raises, currency raises, then goods denominated in Gold deflate, resulting in a depression.

7. Completely ignore the fact that if gold were to drop in price, rampant inflation of goods would take place.

8. Completely ignore that gold is faith based. If dog sh!t were to suddenly become the new standard commodity, then what about Gold?

9. Completely ignore that the Great Depression happened while on the Gold Standard, which actually caused more problems due to the deflationary nature of gold, as mentioned in #6.


So effectively, you dodged every counter to the Gold Standard and only pontificated. Great job.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,709
8
81
Originally posted by: LegendKiller

This is all you've got?
Let me summarize.


1. Pontification.

2. Gold has always been a good medium for societies, especially small ones with fractions of current population.

3. Pontification.

4. Gold will always be the best system, despite the fact that demand for gold has risen significantly and would even more so if it currencies were pegged to it. The amount of gold in circulation per person has much lower than in any point in history, but that doesn't matter.

5. Pontification.

6. Completely ignore the fact that if Gold raises, currency raises, then goods denominated in Gold deflate, resulting in a depression.

7. Completely ignore the fact that if gold were to drop in price, rampant inflation of goods would take place.

8. Completely ignore that gold is faith based. If dog sh!t were to suddenly become the new standard commodity, then what about Gold?

9. Completely ignore that the Great Depression happened while on the Gold Standard, which actually caused more problems due to the deflationary nature of gold, as mentioned in #6.


So effectively, you dodged every counter to the Gold Standard and only pontificated. Great job.

Wow, I guess I should not have expecting anything better from you, should I? You hype up your posts here in the other thread glorifying your great argument against Ron Paul and once you're hit with some common sense and fact you bury yourself in the mud.

The few arguments you make are "ifs". If this, if that - all supposition. Gold is not an "if" It has a solid history and I'm sad to see you ignore the thousands of years civilization has successfully used gold as money.

Here let me put the final nail in the coffin for you:

Take a wild guess who made the following quotes:

"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world."

"In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. ... ..."
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: LegendKiller

This is all you've got?
Let me summarize.


1. Pontification.

2. Gold has always been a good medium for societies, especially small ones with fractions of current population.

3. Pontification.

4. Gold will always be the best system, despite the fact that demand for gold has risen significantly and would even more so if it currencies were pegged to it. The amount of gold in circulation per person has much lower than in any point in history, but that doesn't matter.

5. Pontification.

6. Completely ignore the fact that if Gold raises, currency raises, then goods denominated in Gold deflate, resulting in a depression.

7. Completely ignore the fact that if gold were to drop in price, rampant inflation of goods would take place.

8. Completely ignore that gold is faith based. If dog sh!t were to suddenly become the new standard commodity, then what about Gold?

9. Completely ignore that the Great Depression happened while on the Gold Standard, which actually caused more problems due to the deflationary nature of gold, as mentioned in #6.


So effectively, you dodged every counter to the Gold Standard and only pontificated. Great job.

Wow, I guess I should not have expecting anything better from you, should I? You hype up your posts here in the other thread glorifying your great argument against Ron Paul and once you're hit with some common sense and fact you bury yourself in the mud.

The few arguments you make are "ifs". If this, if that - all supposition. Gold is not an "if" It has a solid history and I'm sad to see you ignore the thousands of years civilization has successfully used gold as money.

Here let me put the final nail in the coffin for you:

Take a wild guess who made the following quotes:

"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world."

"In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. ... ..."


Solid history my ass,
pick up a history book and find out why we stopped using the Bretton Woods System Gold system in 1971. There was plenty of inflation during the Nixon era, despite the fact that the officla exchange rate was pegged to gold.

Inflation will happen whether you have pegged or floating currency, at least with floating you can do something about it.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,709
8
81
Originally posted by: halik


Solid history my ass,
pick up a history book and find out why we stopped using the Bretton Woods System Gold system in 1971. There was plenty of inflation during the Nixon era, despite the fact that the officla exchange rate was pegged to gold.

Inflation will happen whether you have pegged or floating currency, at least with floating you can do something about it.

Sure, just completely ignore the history of gold. This latest experiment in money is only ~35 years old. Compare that to the thousands of years gold has been used. And so far this system is proving to be weak. The dollar continues to fall vs other currencies in the world, other countries are abandoning the dollar and inflation is high.

And yes we had a gimped gold standard prior to 1971 but the Federal Reserve was there too. Why do you think we had to end the gold standard? Because we couldn't maintain that price of gold at the value we pegged it at. Why? Because the Fed was printing so damn much money (read: pumping so much liquidity) it caused gold to start getting sucked out of our reserves and we were running into a crisis. Look, the gold standard ended and look at how many economic problems since then... the commodities spike in the late 70s followed by the extreme rate hikes. Then the stock market crashes like '87 and the tech bubble... the countless bank failures.. the current real estate bubble... your beloved Fed is burying us alive.

Just use common sense. the only inflation a true gold standard can produce is when new gold is mined and added to the market. The inflation you reference from Nixon is because we were issuing more money then there was gold. Common sense.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: halik


Solid history my ass,
pick up a history book and find out why we stopped using the Bretton Woods System Gold system in 1971. There was plenty of inflation during the Nixon era, despite the fact that the officla exchange rate was pegged to gold.

Inflation will happen whether you have pegged or floating currency, at least with floating you can do something about it.

Sure, just completely ignore the history of gold. This latest experiment in money is only ~35 years old. Compare that to the thousands of years gold has been used. And so far this system is proving to be weak. The dollar continues to fall vs other currencies in the world, other countries are abandoning the dollar and inflation is high.

And yes we had a gimped gold standard prior to 1971 but the Federal Reserve was there too. Why do you think we had to end the gold standard? Because we couldn't maintain that price of gold at the value we pegged it at. Why? Because the Fed was printing so damn much money (read: pumping so much liquidity) it caused gold to start getting sucked out of our reserves and we were running into a crisis. Look, the gold standard ended and look at how many economic problems since then... the commodities spike in the late 70s followed by the extreme rate hikes. Then the stock market crashes like '87 and the tech bubble... the countless bank failures.. the current real estate bubble... your beloved Fed is burying us alive.

Just use common sense. the only inflation a true gold standard can produce is when new gold is mined and added to the market. The inflation you reference from Nixon is because we were issuing more money then there was gold. Common sense.


Another Fed conspiracy nutjob...The reason why we had inflation during nixon era was indeed because the federal gov't was amoutning huge deficits (by defition "printing money", fed had very little to do with it).

How exactly will you prevent that from happening under gold standard? Fun little trips like the Iraq would still happen and gov't would still finance it by spending money they don't have. At least now we have the Fed that can perform free market operation to reduce the money supply that bad fiscal policy had created.

In either case, gold standard will not change inflation that is inherent to low unemployment climate or the cyclical nature of the capitalistic market. Both of these things will still happen, regardless of whether the dollar floats or not.

Not that the inflation thing matters at all, because U.S. real gdp per capita (real output per person) has been increasing anyway here So all this talk about inflation "eating" away at your wealth is pure BS.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: halik


Solid history my ass,
pick up a history book and find out why we stopped using the Bretton Woods System Gold system in 1971. There was plenty of inflation during the Nixon era, despite the fact that the officla exchange rate was pegged to gold.

Inflation will happen whether you have pegged or floating currency, at least with floating you can do something about it.

Sure, just completely ignore the history of gold. This latest experiment in money is only ~35 years old. Compare that to the thousands of years gold has been used. And so far this system is proving to be weak. The dollar continues to fall vs other currencies in the world, other countries are abandoning the dollar and inflation is high.

And yes we had a gimped gold standard prior to 1971 but the Federal Reserve was there too. Why do you think we had to end the gold standard? Because we couldn't maintain that price of gold at the value we pegged it at. Why? Because the Fed was printing so damn much money (read: pumping so much liquidity) it caused gold to start getting sucked out of our reserves and we were running into a crisis. Look, the gold standard ended and look at how many economic problems since then... the commodities spike in the late 70s followed by the extreme rate hikes. Then the stock market crashes like '87 and the tech bubble... the countless bank failures.. the current real estate bubble... your beloved Fed is burying us alive.

Just use common sense. the only inflation a true gold standard can produce is when new gold is mined and added to the market. The inflation you reference from Nixon is because we were issuing more money then there was gold. Common sense.


Another Fed conspiracy nutjob...The reason why we had inflation during nixon era was indeed because the federal gov't was amoutning huge deficits (by defition "printing money", fed had very little to do with it).

How exactly will you prevent that from happening under gold standard? Fun little trips like the Iraq would still happen and gov't would still finance it by spending money they don't have. At least now we have the Fed that can perform free market operation to reduce the money supply that bad fiscal policy had created.

In either case, gold standard will not change inflation that is inherent to low unemployment climate or the cyclical nature of the capitalistic market. Both of these things will still happen, regardless of whether the dollar floats or not.

Not that the inflation thing matters at all, because U.S. real gdp per capita (real output per person) has been increasing anyway here So all this talk about inflation "eating" away at your wealth is pure BS.

What? GDP means dick, the top earners are skewing the numbers, real people like us are barely keeping up with inflation.

Inflation matters a lot.

"The New York Times reports that the median hourly wage for American workers has declined 2 percent since 2003, after factoring in inflation. Median wages are the point at which equal numbers of workers earn more and less."

****

"In addition, corporate profits are growing more quickly than wages and salaries. Employee pay now makes up the lowest share of the nation's gross domestic product since the government began recording the data in 1947, according to the paper, while corporate profits have climbed to their highest share since the 1960s."

Text
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: halik


Solid history my ass,
pick up a history book and find out why we stopped using the Bretton Woods System Gold system in 1971. There was plenty of inflation during the Nixon era, despite the fact that the officla exchange rate was pegged to gold.

Inflation will happen whether you have pegged or floating currency, at least with floating you can do something about it.

Sure, just completely ignore the history of gold. This latest experiment in money is only ~35 years old. Compare that to the thousands of years gold has been used. And so far this system is proving to be weak. The dollar continues to fall vs other currencies in the world, other countries are abandoning the dollar and inflation is high.

And yes we had a gimped gold standard prior to 1971 but the Federal Reserve was there too. Why do you think we had to end the gold standard? Because we couldn't maintain that price of gold at the value we pegged it at. Why? Because the Fed was printing so damn much money (read: pumping so much liquidity) it caused gold to start getting sucked out of our reserves and we were running into a crisis. Look, the gold standard ended and look at how many economic problems since then... the commodities spike in the late 70s followed by the extreme rate hikes. Then the stock market crashes like '87 and the tech bubble... the countless bank failures.. the current real estate bubble... your beloved Fed is burying us alive.

Just use common sense. the only inflation a true gold standard can produce is when new gold is mined and added to the market. The inflation you reference from Nixon is because we were issuing more money then there was gold. Common sense.

Even completely ignoring the years that the Fed was in operation, the Gold Standard still sucked. I'll agree that the Fed did an extremely sh!tty job with the Gold Standard but looking at other central banks like the Bank of England, they managed to prevent major bank runs while on the Gold Standard. There were still pretty bad depressions due to unexpected deflation but at least there weren't banking crises. The US on the other hand suffered frequent depressions and banking crises because there was no lender of last resort. I don't see how you can be against a central bank just because the Fed mucked it up in the beginning. There are great examples of other central banks preventing major crises while ours was inexperienced and too decentralized.

Seriously if you think the stock market crashes during '87 and 2001 were bad, those are nothing compared to how much the economy would contract during a banking crisis. The Fed has stabilized our money supply and kept recessions extremely mild. The last recessions was a contraction of only 0.5% of GDP if I recall correctly. I really don't feel like digging through A Monetary History of the United States to find you some comparison numbers but that was one of the smallest recessions we've ever had.

And really gold doesn't have that long of a history. Yes, you can find countries using it for hundreds of years but the same can be said for silver. The US and France were actually on a bimetallic standard for quite a while (US went to straight gold in 1873). Even then you had countries like China and Latin America using silver and one Scandinavian country using copper for a while. Using a commodity to back our money would be the exact same as us pegging our currency to a foreign currency. We would lose all monetary control. The Fed wouldn't be allowed to respond to shocks in the system. That means that say after 2001 when our GDP was starting to shrink, the Fed wouldn't have been allowed to provide liquidity which would have made the recession much worse.

But just keep ignoring all the problems with the Gold Standard and keep believing your delusion.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,140
5,662
126
The problem with Gold is that it is a limited Resource, thus the Economy(ies) using it as a standard have a ceiling. Perhaps that ceiling is a long way off, but eventually it will be reached.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,941
5
0
Well, as a liberal, i would certainly like to see him as President. I'm not on board of all his issues, but he's obviously a very intelligent man that doesn't pander to big corps or special interest group. Some of his ideas are a little whacky, but i think the extremism would be a benefit, because he only has 8 years to implement them. Get rid of the IRS? Yeah, wouldn't we all... but lets be serious now, it won't ever happen. But he could certainly act and reduce the huge bureaucracy that is the IRS. Getting rid of social security and any national health plan? Again, very extreme, but his idea to do it is to divert funds of the war machine towards social issues instead, to hopefully wean people off it eventually. It won't happen, but the diversion of war spending to national issues would do the country well.

So all in all, i think he would be fantastic. Certainly the best of what the republicans have to offer.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: sandorski
The problem with Gold is that it is a limited Resource, thus the Economy(ies) using it as a standard have a ceiling. Perhaps that ceiling is a long way off, but eventually it will be reached.

This is part of the problem. The increase inherent in a commodity isn't just as a result of it's declining supply, but also because of greatly increased (or reduced) demand. These fluctuations can significantly impact the price of the underlying.

Considering that if every government were to invest in gold, now, to ensure a pegged ratio, then the price of gold would shoot through the roof, easily doubling or tripling. I am willing to bet those that are heavily lobbying for a return to the gold standard are heavily invested in gold, since they would make a massive amount of money.

Gold only has as much value as anybody places on it. This value is a nothing but faith, just as the same as it currently is under the fiat system. Faith in gold is the same as faith in an economy. Our military, economic, and and technological superiority is the underlying value of the dollar. Those three main things have infinite value and are not subject to wild perturbations due to commodity pricing, or runs. Even during severe recessions, our currency stayed strong. Why? Because there's the never-ending belief that the US economy will grow.

Why is that changing? Because we are utilizing too much debt. Some say that the Fed is responsible for that. Sure, they could clamp down on the holding ratio, reducing the amount of leverage available. However, that wouldn't stop people from borrowing, or lending, through the secondary market.

For example, with securitization, how does the Fed have any part in it? The bonds are put out into the market and are not kept on balance sheet, thus the holding ratio for deposits, is not kept.

This whole idea of "printing money" is stupidity that shows a lack of understanding of how the capital markets work. Of course the amount of dollars outstanding will increase, the value of America increased! It's stupid to think that the amount of dollars outstanding won't increase with the value of the underlying.

 

Firebot

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2005
1,476
2
0
Originally posted by: mc00
Originally posted by: adrunkgerbil
Originally posted by: mc00
I having serious issue voting for this guy.. I have debate before with someone in this forum(he was right about this guy ) but I just can't vote just because
http://ontheissues.org/Ron_Paul.htm
1. he pro-life I'm pro-choice
2. he doesn't support embryonic stem cell research
3. against gay marriage I'm all about freedom/ people had choice who bang/love/live/etc..
some other stuff but those top 3 bothers me.
but everything else ron paul has right idea as founding father wanted for our nation.

He feels abortion is up to each state, as well as gay marriage. He voted no on FEDERAL FUNDING of stem cell research.


well he feel is up to the each state shouldn't be up to the state is only up to the mother is going carry for 9 month and feed/ pay bill unless she join walfare.. matter fact the woman should pay for there own abortion not the tax payer to make it fair for non-supporter..

gay marriage shouldn't be up to the state.. as long gay couple pay there fee just like rest of us is all good with me.

He voted no on FEDERAL FUNDING of stem cell research <-- so basically tax payer won't pay for it how about those tax payer want to pay for it? they don't have an saying?


You're kidding right? That's what donations are for
 
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