Originally posted by: JackBurton
Please refer to your own definition, continuing effectiveness. DDR2 does just that. It may only perform as good as DDR1, but it's not slower. Yes, it comes at a slightly higher price now, but when Intel's DDR2 boards become more mainstream and by the time NForce 4 is released, that price should come way down. So if DDR1 and DDR2 are close in price, and perform similarly, does it not then become a viable option? Let's do some thinking shall we.Go look up the word Viable; here since you didn't take the time to think about what you just posted I doubt you'll take the time to look it up, thus posting another anger induced spiel.
Viable: Capable of success or continuing effectiveness; practicable
DDR2 is none of that. It's over priced(obviously you're a spoiled child/man w/e, and disregard what the other 98% of consumers consider in their purchasing), It's not faster than DDR1. Did you know this?
I'm not talking about buying a cheap card now and then buying another cheap card in the future. I'm talking about buying a 6800 GT/Ultra now, and then later when the next generation of cards come out, you buy another 6800 GT/Ultra at a lower price, since it's a generation behind at the time. This will give you a HUGE boost in performance. And since the Doom3 engine will be used in several games in the future, this solution will definitely maximize performance for future games.Where did I say anywhere I can't afford it? Here this is what I said, since obviously you have trouble reading and gathering facts; "I don't have extra money to waste on SLI."
That means, it's a waste of money, you could rather save that and buy a good graphics card instead of opting for a cheap one in hopes of a later SLI sollution where you'd need a sufficient PSU and airflow/cooling.
SLI DEFINITELY isn't a waste so I'll have to assume you can't afford it, or your not willing to pay for it.
That's your problem. You think everone wants what YOU want. There are 3 different types of people that buy PCs:People wan't their computers now, and the best value they can get. Not everyone is as rich as you Jack.
1. Cheap ass buyers that want the absolute cheapest PC, period.
2. Budget minded consumers, that want the best bang for the buck.
3. All out consumer, where performance is the number one concern.
Anandtech members (enthusiasts) are mostly comprised of 2 and 3. Now what I'd like you to do is open your mind, and understand not every person that builds a PC has the same goal. Can you do that? I knew you could.
Anandtech members (enthusiasts) are mostly comprised of 2 and 3. Now what I'd like you to do is open your mind, and understand not every person that builds a PC has the same goal. Can you do that? I knew you could.
I'm not talking about buying a cheap card now and then buying another cheap card in the future. I'm talking about buying a 6800 GT/Ultra now, and then later when the next generation of cards come out, you buy another 6800 GT/Ultra at a lower price, since it's a generation behind at the time. This will give you a HUGE boost in performance. And since the Doom3 engine will be used in several games in the future, this solution will definitely maximize performance for future games.
Please refer to your own definition, continuing effectiveness. DDR2 does just that. It may only perform as good as DDR1, but it's not slower. Yes, it comes at a slightly higher price now, but when Intel's DDR2 boards become more mainstream and by the time NForce 4 is released, that price should come way down. So if DDR1 and DDR2 are close in price, and perform similarly, does it not then become a viable option? Let's do some thinking shall we.
The reason you didn't get the point across is because you have no point. You're all over the place. Shimmishim above mentions he wants to wait for NForce 4 because it will support PCI-E, and you try to dissuade him with this cocky, short sighted answer:Did I not get the correct point across to you Jack? Forgive me then, let me try again.
Well no sh!t. Did you just find that out? I gave you a BIG reason in my above post why people are waiting for PCI-E. This is a HUGE feature, and is definitely worth waiting for (for some people). And then you go on to say:Ok, I'll say it again.
PCI-E is no faster than AGP.
The answer is a 939 board (I like the MSI Neo2 Plat) with a Athlon 64 3500+ (better CPU if you can afford it). But some people put up a good argument for a 754 board too (remember, we're talking about number 2 people here ). But that wasn't the point you were trying to make. The point you were trying to make is that there is no reason to wait, because the best platform is available right now. For some people it's a good move to wait just a little longer, for others it's best to jump in right now and pick up a 939 board. But you DEFINITELY can't say:If one were to buy a system now. And is looking around for the best deal, the smartest deal, given he has a modest amount of cash to spend. Not poor, not rich. Your "number 2". Then what would he buy?
Please tell me, as of RIGHT NOW, what should that person buy that will make him most satisfied in price, reliablity and upgradability?
So, no need for new Mobo for another two years.
Seriously, are you really asking me this? I've been around here for awhile now and I pretty much know what the Anandtech forums are comprised of.How do you know this? Was there a poll on it?quote:
Anandtech members (enthusiasts) are mostly comprised of 2 and 3. Now what I'd like you to do is open your mind, and understand not every person that builds a PC has the same goal. Can you do that? I knew you could.
You said no such thing. Let me remind you again:Where did I say everyone has the same goal? I said most of the people buying are the budget, the 2% are the ones that could go all out.
Hmmm, did I miss somewhere in that statement where you said, "MOST people don't need a new mobo.?" That statement came across like that was the case for everyone.So, no need for new Mobo for another two years.
Are you just stubborn, or do you have a problem understanding the benefits of having the OPTION of SLI? You don't have to go out and buy two video cards at one time.Ok, I'm saying SLI will be price VERY HIGH when it first comes out. Therefore people shouldn't have their savings emptied on it, rather have a stable system up through next year when the prices lower.
WTH are you talking about cooling? Is the only fan in your case the PSU fan? Cooling shouldn't be a problem at all for the people considering SLI. I have two case fans in the front, two is the back. Newer cases have a 120mm fan in the front and a 120mm fan in the back. Low noise and great air circulation. Should not pose a single problem for an SLI setup. As for power, depending on how many devices a person has, they should be able to get away with a 480W or 550W PSU. Now this is pure speculation since an SLI setup is not available yet, but my power estimate is with two 6800 GTs (if 6800 GTs are made SLI capable). Given that, alot of Anandtech members should fit those requirements. And yes, the performance will most likely be pretty substantial, but we'll have to wait for the final results on that.Second, did you not read the part about cooling and power consumption? People will most definitely need a power supply upgrade and cooling upgrade. Do you agree? And I don't know about what you say as a huge boost in performance, that is yet to be discovered my friend.
Because it's should be a cheap upgrade (relatively speaking) and would give you a VERY nice performance boost. Like I said, the Doom3 engine will be used in several games in the future and a 6800 Ultra ALONE runs it beautifully with ALL features. Getting a PCI-E 6800 GT now for $400 and later on down the line having the ability to add another for around $200 is just freakin' awesome!Also, you say buying another 6800 Ultra later, why do you think people would want to do that. Wouldn't they rather spend their money on the new GPUs which offer new technologies which make games look a lot better and offer technologies like 3Dc with the X800 series now?
Originally posted by: JackBurton
The reason you didn't get the point across is because you have no point. You're all over the place. Shimmishim above mentions he wants to wait for NForce 4 because it will support PCI-E, and you try to dissuade him with this cocky, short sighted answer:Did I not get the correct point across to you Jack? Forgive me then, let me try again.
Well no sh!t. Did you just find that out? I gave you a BIG reason in my above post why people are waiting for PCI-E. This is a HUGE feature, and is definitely worth waiting for (for some people). And then you go on to say:Ok, I'll say it again.
PCI-E is no faster than AGP.
The answer is a 939 board (I like the MSI Neo2 Plat) with a Athlon 64 3500+ (better CPU if you can afford it). But some people put up a good argument for a 754 board too (remember, we're talking about number 2 people here ). But that wasn't the point you were trying to make. The point you were trying to make is that there is no reason to wait, because the best platform is available right now. For some people it's a good move to wait just a little longer, for others it's best to jump in right now and pick up a 939 board. But you DEFINITELY can't say:If one were to buy a system now. And is looking around for the best deal, the smartest deal, given he has a modest amount of cash to spend. Not poor, not rich. Your "number 2". Then what would he buy?
Please tell me, as of RIGHT NOW, what should that person buy that will make him most satisfied in price, reliablity and upgradability?
So, no need for new Mobo for another two years.
Next counter point...
Seriously, are you really asking me this? I've been around here for awhile now and I pretty much know what the Anandtech forums are comprised of.How do you know this? Was there a poll on it?quote:
Anandtech members (enthusiasts) are mostly comprised of 2 and 3. Now what I'd like you to do is open your mind, and understand not every person that builds a PC has the same goal. Can you do that? I knew you could.
You said no such thing. Let me remind you again:Where did I say everyone has the same goal? I said most of the people buying are the budget, the 2% are the ones that could go all out.
Hmmm, did I miss somewhere in that statement where you said, "MOST people don't need a new mobo.?" That statement came across like that was the case for everyone.So, no need for new Mobo for another two years.
Are you just stubborn, or do you have a problem understanding the benefits of having the OPTION of SLI? You don't have to go out and buy two video cards at one time.Ok, I'm saying SLI will be price VERY HIGH when it first comes out. Therefore people shouldn't have their savings emptied on it, rather have a stable system up through next year when the prices lower.
WTH are you talking about cooling? Is the only fan in your case the PSU fan? Cooling shouldn't be a problem at all for the people considering SLI. I have two case fans in the front, two is the back. Newer cases have a 120mm fan in the front and a 120mm fan in the back. Low noise and great air circulation. Should not pose a single problem for an SLI setup. As for power, depending on how many devices a person has, they should be able to get away with a 480W or 550W PSU. Now this is pure speculation since an SLI setup is not available yet, but my power estimate is with two 6800 GTs (if 6800 GTs are made SLI capable). Given that, alot of Anandtech members should fit those requirements. And yes, the performance will most likely be pretty substantial, but we'll have to wait for the final results on that.Second, did you not read the part about cooling and power consumption? People will most definitely need a power supply upgrade and cooling upgrade. Do you agree? And I don't know about what you say as a huge boost in performance, that is yet to be discovered my friend.
Because it's should be a cheap upgrade (relatively speaking) and would give you a VERY nice performance boost. Like I said, the Doom3 engine will be used in several games in the future and a 6800 Ultra ALONE runs it beautifully with ALL features. Getting a PCI-E 6800 GT now for $400 and later on down the line having the ability to add another for around $200 is just freakin' awesome!Also, you say buying another 6800 Ultra later, why do you think people would want to do that. Wouldn't they rather spend their money on the new GPUs which offer new technologies which make games look a lot better and offer technologies like 3Dc with the X800 series now?
Let's sum this up because I'm already tired of going around in a circle with you.
The MSI Neo2 Plat is an awesome platform to build a machine around now. But PCI-E looks REALLY nice for future builds.
Ok, even if you can, by the time dual core cpus come out, better s939 mobos that are made to be used with the dual core procs will be out that offer much better performance than the existing ones
Originally posted by: Alkaline5
Originally posted by: Viditor
3. DDR2 will be available sometime in April-June for AMD (at last report/rumour)
I'm curious as to how this will be accomplished? With the additional pins of DDR2 (240 vs 184 IIRC) AMD would either have to drop back to single-channel DDR2 or use some sort of bridge chip to convert signals if they wanted to maintain dual channel DDR2 compatibility on the integrated memory controller. While I certainly hope they can rollout a integrated dual channel DDR2 controller, I don't see how they can w/o additional CPU pins to correspond to the extra DDR2 pins.
Originally posted by: Viditor
With the additional pins of DDR2 (240 vs 184 IIRC) AMD would either have to drop back to single-channel DDR2 or use some sort of bridge chip to convert signals if they wanted to maintain dual channel DDR2 compatibility on the integrated memory controller
The short answer is "I don't know"...I do know they are planning on it however, as they have flat out said they will have 939 and 940 pin A64s with DDR2 next year. They guessed at around April, but it will be when the speed gains outweigh the latency costs (they mentioned around when 667 is easily available).
I do however have some guesses...
1. DDR2 appears to be backwards compatable to DDR, meaning that a memory controller for DDR2 would also be able to utilize DDR sockets (though obviously not as effeciently)
2. I don't know what each of the current pins do on the A64s, so to me it is quite concievable that the circuitry for the 240 pin DDR2 is already in place in S939 and S940.
3. This would not be the first time AMD planned their design around a future technology. The current single core Hammers have most of the circuitry for dual core already (just sitting there doing nothing). Even Intel did this with Prescott and x86-64...
I'm not talking about buying a cheap card now and then buying another cheap card in the future. I'm talking about buying a 6800 GT/Ultra now, and then later when the next generation of cards come out, you buy another 6800 GT/Ultra at a lower price, since it's a generation behind at the time. This will give you a HUGE boost in performance. And since the Doom3 engine will be used in several games in the future, this solution will definitely maximize performance for future games.
However, when you have SLI you can put two $400 cards together and get TWICE the performance!
"AMD recently said that its desktop AMD64 chips with DDR2 support will also have 939-pin packaging"where did they flat out say they were making ddr2 memory controllers on the 754/939 platform?
ddr1 is not backwards compatable(pin layout) with ddr2
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: GhandiInstinct
Ok, I'll say it again.
PCI-E is no faster than AGP. DDR2 is too expensive and doesn't offer performance gains. Not until 667 and 800 DDR2 shows up will we see a benefit to switch.
So, no need for new Mobo for another two years.
SLI. That single principle gives tremendous vitality to any board with PCI-E. Imagine buying a video card, playing it for two years until new games start running slow, then buying the same one (after two year's worth of depreciation) and doubling your gaming performance instantly without changing anything else in your system and rocking on for another two years. That's HUGE upgradability value.
Originally posted by: trexpesto
Eventually we will hit the limits of what humans are able to perceive. Until they start selling cyborg eyeball upgrades, or just patch in to your brain.
agree with a lot of the things that Jack said. All I know is that I screwed up with my last computer purchase, and I'm not going to make the same mistake again. I bought it like 3 months before the p4s came out. So, I'm stuck with a 1ghz CPU, 512mb ram (no extra slots), 4x AGP, and 133mhz FSB.
The cards must be the same. You really should consider doing some research before openning your mouth. Based on this small bit of info alone, I now know that you know absolutely nothing about SLI, which you have so vehemently argued against for the majority of this thread.There are no tests or benchmarks that prove that theory. And if you have two different cards, different speeds you can't expect such a drastic improvement.
Don't forget there's more to computers than the video card. I wouldn't mind a PCI-E x4 SCSI card or SAS card. Old-school PCI is due for a retirement.PCI-E is no faster than AGP
Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
Since motherboards keep getting better and better, even though older ones might support newer CPUs, usually the newer motherboards and chipsets offer superior performance and features that make upgrading your motherboard a must if you are an enthusiast.
So not only would a newer socket 939 motherboard most likely offer better performance, it also would probably offer newer features such as more than one 16x PCI-e slot for some SLI goodness (dual core CPU and "dual core" GPUs ) and support for DDR2 (once its actually faster for Athlon)