[Thought] Could Intel get sued over Kaby Lake?

[BonzaiDuck]

Not sure if serious. How would replacing solder with TIM be in any way an improvement?

He meant "bare die" installation -- I'm sure. . . . he says so.

I've got to make myself some coffee . . .

 

[LTC8K6]

Seems like you'd open quite a door there if you successfully sued Intel along that line. AMD would be quite vulnerable, with that sort of thinking.

 

[Yuriman]

I'd like to point out that you can't really compare temperatures reported by Intel chips vs AMD, or even by newer Intel chips vs older. The sensors are in a different place, measure different things, are calibrated differently and sometimes even use different scales.

For example, back in the socket A / 478 days, it was not uncommon to see temperature readings of 50-60c, which were usually taken from a thermal diode located in the socket itself, often pressed against the bottom of the CPU. Riddle me this: which is hotter, a CPU which reads 60c at the silicon on the bottom, or a CPU that reads 80c from an on-die sensor located next to the hottest parts of the chip?

What about an AMD FX CPU which reads 11c at idle and 58c under load, when ambient temperatures are 25c?

As far as consumers are concerned, these are just arbitrary numbers. Intel has given us a nice 0-100 scale, but maybe it was a mistake to ever claim it was degrees.

 

[dealcorn]

My understanding is different from most of the posts on this thread. I think you can sue pretty much anyone you want for pretty much anything including issues relating to ET style alien invasions. As long as you have deep enough pockets, you can find able attorneys to assert your claim to your last dollar. Garbage lawsuits such as the described should never pay off, but if you can somehow create enough nuisance value, you may even get a token settlement. Such suits are an abuse of the system, but the US legal system is highly abuse tolerant as long as attorneys are adequately compensated.

 

[.vodka]

Not sure if serious. How would replacing solder with TIM be in any way an improvement?

Before
Max temp: 86°C
Avg temp: 79°C

After:
Max temp: 80°C
Avg temp: 75.6°C

You can still improve on the solder, in this case by 5°C. He used liquid metal. It's not as much as the improvement from TIM, but it's there for the xtreme guys.

 

[Arachnotronic]

So we've read it in reviews, we've seen it on youtube, it's all over this forum...

KabyLake 7700k processors run extremely hot.

It's true, you do need excellent cooling to get the most out of it.

The processors remain within what is generally accepted as a safe operating temperature, up to and including 100c under load.

The problem is, the end user doesn't see that as an acceptable temperature, and it especially doesn't leave you with much overclocking headroom due to the thermal limitations.

Most end users don't care about the temperature of their CPU, as long as the product works as intended.

So the question is: Could Intel be sued for shady business practices?

Any company can be sued for anything. Whether those suits are successful is an entirely different matter.

They have saved money by seemingly using a low quality TIM.

So the business profits. That is nothing new, most companies cut corners.

The reason Intel uses the "low quality TIM" isn't necessarily to save money. Intel sells these processors by -- literally -- the tens of millions of units per year. These chips need to be extremely reliable and last for a long time.

The TIM that Intel uses is, though not great for OCers, but it is battle tested and is known to meet Intel's lifetime reliability standards. Changing something that's known to work well is very risky.

But by the temperatures being so uncomfortably high on a processor advertised for it's overclocking and gaming potential, users are having to de-lid their processors and apply their own TIM to get acceptable usage temperatures.

Now this is potentially what makes it shady, as Intel have now made a double saving, as these delidded processors now have their warranty voided, meaning if they go faulty Intel is no longer required to issue refund or replacement.

Overclocking voids your warranty, too.

I personally think they'd get away with it due to the processors being within the acceptable range of temperatures. However independent countries may have a better claim due to advertisement laws, and simply business practice laws.

If the processors work as advertised, then there's nothing to see here.

As a final disclaimer, I personally have zero intention of suing anyone. Especially Intel. I do not own a 7700k nor am I ever likely to purchase one. However I am spending significant amounts of time trying to help dissatisfied customers who have.

How many dissatisfied 7700K users do you know?

 

[sirmo]

The problem I have with my 4770k is that due to the lid issue it's actually heat soaking my motherboard's VRMs. Like the whole bottom of the motherboard gets extremely hot, while the CPU cooler just sits there mildly warm. I do hope Ryzen avoids these types of issues.

 

[Ranulf]

Or course, there's the opposite too - if consumers feel that they're not getting their money's worth with the i7-7700K, what about those of us that feel that we're getting perhaps too good of a deal, with the G4560. (Is it any wonder that you can't even find those right now, after the initial batch sold out?)

Edit: I'm willing to state, that in my opinion, the G4560 represents the best value-for-money CPU that Intel has yet blessed us with, except for possibly the Celeron 300A.

Not buying it yet. Maybe in 2-3 years. For now that title is held by say the 2500/2600K chips or even the previous intel generation.

 

[cytg111]

I like my haswell processor.
I dont like it throttles at stock cooling running intensive AVX2 loads (pime95) though.
Could Intel be sued over this? Yes. But really what kind of damage are we talking about here?
If anything such a suit would only serve to hurt Intels Image.. no single individual would persue such a goal.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Here we go.. Just what we need an AMD troll thread,, YAY!

Just report it. Maybe if enough do the mods will take some action.

 

[UsandThem]

As a final disclaimer, I personally have zero intention of suing anyone. Especially Intel. I do not own a 7700k nor am I ever likely to purchase one. However I am spending significant amounts of time trying to help dissatisfied customers who have.

How exactly are you helping "dissatisfied customers" of the 7700k?

What are you doing for the poor customers of the FX-9590?

 

[Crumpet]

Providing advice, why is that such a big deal? Such as better cooling solutions, delidding ir returns.

Why are people so offended about people discussing the fact that the 7700k is so hot?

 

[UsandThem]

Providing advice, why is that such a big deal? Such as better cooling solutions, delidding ir returns.

Why are people so offended about the fact that the 7700k is so hot?

"Offended" by a computer component? Not at all.

I was more curious about your proclamation, and what your qualifications and goals were in this "help" you are providing.

So if someone does have one of those horrible 7700k CPUs, what are they to do? Is it safe to use, or should they immediately stop using it like the Samsung Note 7?

 

[Rifter]

Obviously intel could have done better, but i dont think it will get them sued.

I do however think intel is deliberately trying to kill overclocking, I mean think about it, ever since i got into computers in the 386 days you were able to through overclocking yield 30-60% more performance out of your CPU. This has remained constant for 20 years or more, between AMD and intel there has always been a great overclocking option for those that wanted to extract performance from their CPU. Now look at today, intels premier Overclocking CPU 7700k is sold with crap TIM and runs so hot at stock speed that even with top tier air or water cooling you are at best able to extract a 5-15% OC from it. Thats such a small amount its not even wort it to try. Intel is charging a hefty premium for the K series the least they could so is solder the damn thing, but they dont, and why you ask? IMO its because they want to kill off OC'ing, so how do you do that while not pissing off your customers? If they just came out and said overclocking is dead to bad it would enrage alot of people, so you sell a few generations where overclocking is so horrible due to you making sure its that way that its not even worth peoples time and then in a few generations you cancel the K series and people will think oh well overclocking was not working well anyways so no big deal. So i think the gimping of the 7700k is on purpose. I mean its not like intel doesnt know the TIM sucks and that solder is the way to go for high end OC edition chips, this isnt the first time they have had this issue with CPU's they cant claim ignorance on this one, yet they chose it anyways. And you hit on one point i agree with, they did it so the the real enthusiasts will delid it anyways voiding their warranty, so intel doesnt need to warranty the OC chips, which IMO is very shady indeed as these are sold as overclocking chips they should at least be able to overclock more than a few percent otherwise whats the point of the K series.

I just hope that AMD's new CPU's all being unlocked and performing well and bringing more cores for less money make intel rethink this strategy. And that eventually we get back into the days when people can overclock again and actually get measurable results.

To me computers have always been about pushing the limit, i have overclocked every CPU and GPU i have ever purchased as this is why im into computers as a hobby, i get enjoyment out of pushing electronics as far as they can go without breaking down, and learning what i need to do cooling or otherwise to do this. It would be so boring for me to buy stock only parts that i dont even know if i would bother, id probably buy a PS4 to game on and call it a day. Im very much looking forward to Zen shaking things up and hoping that its a good overclocker as my current system is due for a upgrade, but my 50% overclocked I7 930 is still running great even though its been through 7 years of 4.2Ghz@1.35v.

 

[Yuriman]

I'll be honest, I see it as Intel having gotten better at binning rather than an attempt to kill overclocking. Intel isn't hiding 30-60% of a CPU's potential, they're actually offering parts that are already running very near the limits. 60% more than 4.5ghz would be 7.2ghz, which you're not going to get regardless of how well attached the IHS is.