Thoughts on Affirmative Action??

[SheHateMe]

*unless you qualify for AA

Waggy,be honest...do you really think she was denied because of Affirmative Action?

Its a competitive University with competitive admissions.

The school admitted that even IF they were actually using race as a factor in her admission, she still would not have gotten in because they did not want her.



She was good enough to get into another school. Good for her.

http://teachers.sduhsd.k12.ca.us/lccounseling/sat-act_conversion_chart.htm

An 1180 SAT score translates to an ACT score of 26. I believe the average ACT score is around 21-22. She was applying to a public school, not Harvard or Yale. I fail to see how you would call here score "not good at all" when it is clearly above average.

Average SAT scores broken down by State.

Texas


Total SAT: 1462
Critical Reading: 484
Mathematics: 505
Writing: 473
Participation Rate: 41.5%*

Why do you think HS kids pick and choose between the two when you can use either? There is really no direct comparison of scores, the SAT is a more involved test. Its longer, and its harder. How is she above average with a score of 1180? This was two years after she applied. Do you think the state average was 1180 when she applied on 2008?

http://dallas-area-schools.blogspot.com/2010/02/average-sat-scores-by-high-school.html

Here are the school SAT averages from class of 2008.
Highest SAT average down to lowest SAT average

1263 - Talented & Gifted magnet (Dallas ISD)
1209 - Science & Engineering magnet (Dallas ISD)
1201 - Highland Park (Highland Park ISD)

1180 - Plano West (Plano ISD)
1161 - Plano Sr. (Plano ISD)

1124 - Flower Mound (Lewisville ISD)
1124 - Southlake Carroll Sr. (Carroll ISD)
1123 - Plano East (Plano ISD)
1118 - Coppell (Coppell ISD)

1098 - Marcus (Lewisville ISD)
1097 - Grapevine (Grapevine-Colleyville ISD)
1096 - JJ Pearce (Richardson ISD)
1095 - Heritage (Grapevine-Colleyville ISD)

1084 - Allen (Allen ISD)
1081 - Martin (Arlington ISD)

1072 - Hebron (Lewisville ISD)
1072 - Garland (Garland ISD)

There are atleast 20 more school districts listed...

Averages broken down by school, the year she applied.




University of Texas has clearly laid out that they will automatically give a spot FIRST to any student who graduates at the top of their class in Texas.

Ok, think about how many High schools there are in Texas...now, this about how many spots UT has available. If those kids take those spots FIRST, it makes Ms. Fischer less likely to get in.

Everything isnt a race issue.

 

[Svnla]

Something just pop up in my mind.

The Supreme Court Justices should request ALL blacks and hispanics academic records and test scores that got in the year Ms. Fisher applied to UT.

If all of those minorities that got in that year had higher GPA and test scores than Ms. Fisher, ie. they got in UT based on their own merit, not the "diversity/feel good" bullcrap, then Ms. Fisher would need to shut up and move on. If that was not the case, then UT needs to pay heavy fine and remove all AA/set aside programs pronto and other colleges/universities should do the same.

 

[nehalem256]

Average SAT scores broken down by State.



Why do you think HS kids pick and choose between the two when you can use either? There is really no direct comparison of scores, the SAT is a more involved test. Its longer, and its harder. How is she above average with a score of 1180? This was two years after she applied. Do you think the state average was 1180 when she applied on 2008?

http://dallas-area-schools.blogspot.com/2010/02/average-sat-scores-by-high-school.html



Averages broken down by school, the year she applied.




University of Texas has clearly laid out that they will automatically give a spot FIRST to any student who graduates at the top of their class in Texas.

Ok, think about how many High schools there are in Texas...now, this about how many spots UT has available. If those kids take those spots FIRST, it makes Ms. Fischer less likely to get in.

Everything isnt a race issue.

she scored 1180/1600 (I converted to ACT since I never took the SAT). a 1600 based score means only

Critical Reading: 484
Mathematics: 505

Apply. So the average score is 999. 1180 seems to clearly be above average to me.

 

[SheHateMe]

she scored 1180/1600 (I converted to ACT since I never took the SAT). a 1600 based score means only

Critical Reading: 484
Mathematics: 505

Apply. So the average score is 999. 1180 seems to clearly be above average to me.

UT Austin Admissions Profile

Admissions Data (2011):

Percent of Applicants Admitted: 47%
UT Austin GPA and Test Score Graph
Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile
SAT Critical Reading: 540 / 670
SAT Math: 580 / 710
SAT Writing: 540 / 680

Shes not even average per their own Admissions profile.




Also, I found this:

As a state public university, the University of Texas at Austin was, until recently, subject to Texas House Bill 588, which guarantees graduating Texas high school seniors in the top 10% of their class admission to any public Texas university. A new state law granting UT (but no other state university) a partial exemption from the top 10% rule, Senate Bill 175, was passed by the 81st Legislature in 2009. It modifies this admissions policy by limiting automatically admitted freshmen to 75% of the entering in-state freshman class, starting in 2011. The university will admit the top one percent, the top two percent and so forth until the cap is reached; the university expects to automatically admit students in the top 8% of their graduating class for 2011.[71] Furthermore, students admitted under Texas House Bill 588 are not guaranteed their choice of college or major, but rather only guaranteed admission to the university as a whole. Many colleges, such as the Cockrell School of Engineering, have secondary requirements that must be met for admission.[72]
For others who go through the traditional application process, selectivity is deemed "more selective" according to the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching.[73] For Fall 2009, 31,362 applied and 45.6% were accepted, and of those accepted, 51.0% enrolled.[3] The university's freshman retention rate in 2009 was 92.5% and the six-year graduation rate was 81.0%.[3] The Fall 2011 entering class had an average ACT composite score of 28 and an average SAT composite score of 1858.[4][74]

So...she couldnt even dream of being UT material it seems.

Not even half of the people that apply to this school get in. Must be due to Affirmative Action

 

[nehalem256]

UT Austin Admissions Profile



Shes not even average per their own Admissions profile.



Not even half of the people that apply to this school get in. Must be due to Affirmative Action

So as per your stats at a minimum 25% of students had lower test scores than her.
EDIT: 1120 being 25 percantile score

Want to make a wager on if any of those bottom 25% of students benefited from AA?

 

[SheHateMe]

So as per your stats at a minimum 25% of students had lower test scores than her.
EDIT: 1120 being 25 percantile score

Want to make a wager on if any of those bottom 25% of students benefited from AA?

The lower number is for the 25th percentile of students who enrolled in (not just applied to) the college. For the school above, 25% of enrolled students received a math score of 520 or lower.
The upper number is for the 75th percentile of students who enrolled in the college. For the above example, 75% of enrolled students got a math score of 620 or lower (looked at another way, 25% of students got above a 620).

For the school above, if you have an SAT math score of 640, you would be in the top 25% of applicants for that one measure. If you have a math score of 500, you are in the bottom 25% of applicants for that measure.

^_^

Her SAT score seems to be in that bottom 25% Affirmative Action pool you think got in over her.

:whiste:





Want to make a wager that many of those students under her didn't get in either? I don't see an AA issue here, just an excuse for not getting in.

The school only admits around 47% of applicants. They automatically admit students who came in at the top 8-10% of their class until they hit the cap.

How many spots do you think that leaves? Schools in Texas are not allowed to use Quotas, therefore, it would be impossible for someone to get in just because they were a minority.

This admission data is really not hard to find at all. UT sounds like a tough school to get into. They already released a statement saying she didn't have a chance.

 

[Svnla]

LOL @ pathetic attempts to paint Ms. Fisher as not "qualified", "bottom of the barrel".

If Ms. Fisher was not qualified, then every single minority applicant (blacks and hispanics) that got accepted to UT was qualified base on his or her grade and test score alone? All blacks and hispanics applicants were more qualified than Ms. Fisher (SAT scores and HS GPA)? Really? Wanna put a wager on that? Put up or shut up.

Because this is what UT lawyers said:

Inside the court, attorneys for the university argued that race is never considered alone, but only as part of a holistic approach that takes a variety of factors into consideration. They admitted, however, that one goal is to increase the percentage of black students on campus.

But because that does not create a "critical mass" of racial groups, the school also considers race in filling out the rest of each year's class.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/10/09/supreme-court-affirmative-action/1623487/

And how do you increase the percentage of black students? By magic dust or the wish of the fairy godmother? ROTFLMAO.

As I said previously, let check ALL of the grades and test scores of those blacks and hispanics that got in. See if they all scored 1181 SAT or higher and got a GPA of 3.60 or higher, somehow I seriously doubt that.

The article also states:

...opponents argue against racial preferences -- to protect the rights of Fisher and others who they say are victims of discrimination when universities ignore their superior qualifications.
"Nowhere in the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence does the word 'diversity' appear," a group of Texas faculty members argue in a brief supporting Fisher. "There is no constitutional basis for the courts, let alone a state university, to engage in such a radical restructuring of America, allocating education, jobs and contracts based on race."

Follow the Constitution and stop all the AA and set aside bullcraps. Stop the madness NOW!!!

Why Asian students did not need any AA or set aside programs yet they are still kicking ass other races (including whites) in schools? Huummmmmmm..

 

[DCal430]

^_^

Her SAT score seems to be in that bottom 25% Affirmative Action pool you think got in over her.

:whiste:





Want to make a wager that many of those students under her didn't get in either? I don't see an AA issue here, just an excuse for not getting in.

The school only admits around 47% of applicants. They automatically admit students who came in at the top 8-10% of their class until they hit the cap.

How many spots do you think that leaves? Schools in Texas are not allowed to use Quotas, therefore, it would be impossible for someone to get in just because they were a minority.

This admission data is really not hard to find at all. UT sounds like a tough school to get into. They already released a statement saying she didn't have a chance.

Now I know you must have failed at math.

Sad that people like you graduate college yet alone HS and can't figure out basic math.

 

[SheHateMe]

Now I know you must have failed at math.

Sad that people like you graduate college yet alone HS and can't figure out basic math.

The lower number is for the 25th percentile of students who enrolled in (not just applied to) the college. For the school above, 25% of enrolled students received a math score of 520 or lower.
The upper number is for the 75th percentile of students who enrolled in the college. For the above example, 75% of enrolled students got a math score of 620 or lower (looked at another way, 25% of students got above a 620).

And...I suppose you got the reading award in HS?

What was her SAT score again? An 1180, someone already outlined what her individual SAT scores would be based on that number. Hint: Even this 25% of enrolled students at UT with a 520 or lower on the SAT did better than her. HA

The Fall 2011 entering class had an average ACT composite score of 28 and an average SAT composite score of 1858.

Wow, those are pretty impressive numbers for an incoming class. No doubt they were similar in 2008 when she failed to get into a top tier school.

Oh, I know why she didn't get in...Racism, Discrimination...all that stuff. Not because she was unqualified per their own admissions guidelines...but because she was white

 

[DCal430]

And...I suppose you got the reading award in HS?

What was her SAT score again? An 1180, someone already outlined what her individual SAT scores would be based on that number. Hint: Even this 25% of enrolled students at UT with a 520 or lower on the SAT did better than her. HA

The 25th percentil for those addmited was 1120 according to your own estimates, she scored 1180. 1180 is GREATER than 1120. You are the one who needs to learn how to read and do math.

FYI she scored 640 and 680 on her SAT math. Far greater than 520.

 

[SheHateMe]

The 25th percentil for those addmited was 1120 according to your own estimates, she scored 1180. 1180 is GREATER than 1120. You are the one who needs to learn how to read and do math.

FYI she scored 640 and 680 on her SAT math. Far greater than 520.

I didnt estimate anything. It was pulled straight from here:

Consider a college profile that presents the following SAT scores for the 25th and 75th percentiles:

SAT Critical Reading: 500 / 610
SAT Math: 520 / 620
SAT Writing: 490 / 600

The lower number is for the 25th percentile of students who enrolled in (not just applied to) the college. For the school above, 25% of enrolled students received a math score of 520 or lower.
The upper number is for the 75th percentile of students who enrolled in the college. For the above example, 75% of enrolled students got a math score of 620 or lower (looked at another way, 25% of students got above a 620).

For the school above, if you have an SAT math score of 640, you would be in the top 25% of applicants for that one measure. If you have a math score of 500, you are in the bottom 25% of applicants for that measure.

Btw, those are example stats to explain the percentiles if you don't understand.

Here is Nahalem explain what her score could be indicative of.

she scored 1180/1600 (I converted to ACT since I never took the SAT). a 1600 based score means only

Critical Reading: 484
Mathematics: 505

Apply. So the average score is 999. 1180 seems to clearly be above average to me.

Here is UT Austin's data for their admissions. Pay attention.

Admissions Data (2011):

Percent of Applicants Admitted: 47%
UT Austin GPA and Test Score Graph
Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile
SAT Critical Reading: 540 / 670
SAT Math: 580 / 710
SAT Writing: 540 / 680

You are really lost if you don't understand that.

Im just going off the SAT score of 1180 UT claimed was on her application.

FYI she scored 640 and 680 on her SAT math. Far greater than 520.

LOL. Please don't lie. The original complaint is public record.

BTW, here is the complaint right here.

http://www.utexas.edu/vp/irla/Documents/02. Amended Complaint.pdf

 

[Svnla]

On NBC News tonight, Ms. Fisher said there were students with lower test scores and lower GPAs, less extra curriculum activities than her, yet they were able to get in UT because of their race.

That's why she filed her lawsuit. That's the bottom line, blatantly discrimination, no matter how the AA and set aside programs lovers tried and tried to spin to something else.

 

[DCal430]

I didnt estimate anything. It was pulled straight from here:



Btw, those are example stats to explain the percentiles if you don't understand.

Here is Nahalem explain what her score was indicative of.



Here is UT Austin's data for their admissions. Pay attention.


You are really lost if you don't understand that.

Im just going off the SAT score of 1180 UT claimed was on her application.



Source?

Lets see 484 + 505 = 990, HE WAS TELLING YOU WHAT THE AVERAGE APPLICANT SCORE WAS, NOT HERS.

But you couldn't understand that.

 

[nehalem256]

You are really lost if you don't understand that.

Im just going off the SAT score of 1180 UT claimed was on her application.

I understand that. 1180 is Math+Critical Reading

as per the #s you provided

Admissions Data (2011):

Percent of Applicants Admitted: 47%
UT Austin GPA and Test Score Graph
Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile
SAT Critical Reading: 540 / 670
SAT Math: 580 / 710
SAT Writing: 540 / 680

The 25th percentile score for UT Austin is 540+580=1120

Which means that the girl had a better SAT score that >25% of admitted students.

 

[SheHateMe]

I understand that. 1180 is Math+Critical Reading

as per the #s you provided



The 25th percentile score for UT Austin is 540+580=1120

Which means that the girl had a better SAT score that >25% of admitted students.

The lower number is for the 25th percentile of students who enrolled in (not just applied to) the college. For the school above, 25% of enrolled students received a math score of 520 or lower.
The upper number is for the 75th percentile of students who enrolled in the college. For the above example, 75% of enrolled students got a math score of 620 or lower

Ive read this a few times to interpreted the numbers (just to make sure, I had it understood).

I understand what you are trying to say. But, I am also going by the explanation they have given for the way they break the scores down.

I also read the complaint she lodged against the school in 2000 (not 2008? *shrug) just to make sure we all finally knew exactly what her score was that she submitted.

She got a 500 in Reading and a 680 in math. Just for clarification

 

[DCal430]

According to the breakdown given for that dataset, being on the lower end of the fraction means that 25% of those students got 1120 score or lower. Not higher.

Yes and she got 1180.

1180 is GREATER than 1120. She is not in the bottom 25%.

 

[waggy]

so what you are saying is that a person should only be admitted based on merit? if she didn't qualify she shouldn't get in? agreed. that is what we been saying.


i do think its idiotic a school only takes the top 10% of a class. with that logic my daughter wouldn't get in. Even though she recieves A's and in state and national test she got 96% for state and 93% for national (yeah those scores would not put her in top 10% of her class)

 

[SheHateMe]

so what you are saying is that a person should only be admitted based on merit? if she didn't qualify she shouldn't get in? agreed. that is what we been saying.


i do think its idiotic a school only takes the top 10% of a class. with that logic my daughter wouldn't get in. Even though she recieves A's and in state and national test she got 96% for state and 93% for national (yeah those scores would not put her in top 10% of her class)

Well, I said that at the beginning of the thread. People continued to put words in my mouth.

What you say about your daughter is true and it is one of the critisisms about this program. There are kids who are in school districts where it is harder to come out at the top of your class due to the caliber of students there.

UT is NOT saying your daughter will not get in period. What they are saying is, there is a guaranteed spot for the students who come out at the top of their class.

Im pretty sure she would still get in. UT said that students who have to try to get in on the second string are put through an even more selective process. This is where your daughter will most likely win out. The top ten percent kids don't have any of their credentials taken into account other than their class position in HS (another critisism).

This means your daughter will have ALL of her credentials taken into account even though the 10 percent-ers did not have to.

It sucks, but apparently, this has made everything fair and balanced in Texas.

 

[Svnla]

so what you are saying is that a person should only be admitted based on merit? if she didn't qualify she shouldn't get in? agreed. that is what we been saying.


i do think its idiotic a school only takes the top 10% of a class. with that logic my daughter wouldn't get in. Even though she recieves A's and in state and national test she got 96% for state and 93% for national (yeah those scores would not put her in top 10% of her class)

This is from what I've been told from UT folks.

A few years ago, the state of Texas changed its law and would accept any students at any public HS in the state in the top 10% => the 10% rule, ie. you would be golden to go to UT in Austin, the state premier university, if you are in the top 10% of your graduate class. Period.

The problem is the students right below that threshold line. As I posted the link above, UT lawyers even admitted that they did and still do use race in the admission process. Ms. Fisher claimed that she did not get in because there were other candidates that were less qualified (lower test score and lower HS GPA) but got in anyway because they were blacks and hispanics. That's why she filed her lawsuit.

The problem is there were LESSER QUALIFIED students but they got in anyway because of their race (or so she claims), not about her own qualifications.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Learning from who? You keep saying a child that has received a poor education can just go and homeschool themselves. Such a simple solution to everything, huh?

Yes, there are libraries in Detroit..with funding for public programs being in the wind, you would be lucky to find a library in Detroit that still has the same outreach programs they might have had years ago.

Made the phone calls as promised

3 main options exist

1. For Failing Schools - the NCLB system provides FREE commercial tutoring services - student just gets a referral from the school or school district
2. Programs at the library staffed by volunteers - 1/2 participate - quality varies according to the volunteer
3. Enrichment Programs - Reading and social interaction/skills - Reading programs - between weekly and months meetings with professional business interaction guests

 

[SheHateMe]

Made the phone calls as promised

3 main options exist

1. For Failing Schools - the NCLB system provides FREE commercial tutoring services - student just gets a referral from the school or school district
2. Programs at the library staffed by volunteers - 1/2 participate - quality varies according to the volunteer
3. Enrichment Programs - Reading and social interaction/skills - Reading programs - between weekly and months meetings with professional business interaction guests

Just curious as to which Libraries you called? Did they tell you how often the School District or Schools submit referrals for free tutoring?

There's 23 libraries.

Are those 3 things above uniform across every library in Detroit?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Just curious as to which Libraries you called? Did they tell you how often the School District or Schools submit referrals for free tutoring?

There's 23 libraries.

Are those 3 things above uniform across every library in Detroit?

Talked to the main library first to get an overview. She told me about items
#1 & 3.
Then called each of the branches and got confirmation on #2 & #3 for each.

By NCLB law any student coming from a school that is "failing", can get a referral to the free private tutoring places like Sylvain.

The referrals do not go through the library.

Point I have trying to make is there is an opportunity for a child to learn and pull themselves out of the ghetto if they desire. It will take work, they may be put down by the "in crowd", but the resources do exists within a place like Detroit. They have to put in the effort to utilize them though.

Given that Detroit was a random selection, other cities may have more or less resources within the library system.
The NCLB system is there for all in poor schools.

 

[SheHateMe]

Talked to the main library first to get an overview. She told me about items
#1 & 3.
Then called each of the branches and got confirmation on #2 & #3 for each.

By NCLB law any student coming from a school that is "failing", can get a referral to the free private tutoring places like Sylvain.

The referrals do not go through the library.

Point I have trying to make is there is an opportunity for a child to learn and pull themselves out of the ghetto if they desire. It will take work, they may be put down by the "in crowd", but the resources do exists within a place like Detroit. They have to put in the effort to utilize them though.

Given that Detroit was a random selection, other cities may have more or less resources within the library system.
The NCLB system is there for all in poor schools.

I know about the NCLB already. I asked you if they told you anything about how often schools recommend students? Most of the schools in Detroit are failing schools...therefore, most of them should be referring students to these free services. But, the question is, are they?

Also, who are the referrals supposed to go through? Did they say?

 

[Svnla]

Talked to the main library first to get an overview. She told me about items
#1 & 3.
Then called each of the branches and got confirmation on #2 & #3 for each.

By NCLB law any student coming from a school that is "failing", can get a referral to the free private tutoring places like Sylvain.

The referrals do not go through the library.

Point I have trying to make is there is an opportunity for a child to learn and pull themselves out of the ghetto if they desire. It will take work, they may be put down by the "in crowd", but the resources do exists within a place like Detroit. They have to put in the effort to utilize them though.

Given that Detroit was a random selection, other cities may have more or less resources within the library system.
The NCLB system is there for all in poor schools.

The bolded/underlined parts = right on.

Poor SE Asians came to the US with almost nothing and after a few years (without any AA or set aside programs), they were able to kick butts in school and college even they were in similar public school system. Why is that? I reckon because they wanted to better themselves and not blame anyone else. Winner don't blame and blamers don't win.

"Have to put the effort to utilize" = perfect example of the old saying "You can take a horse to the water but you can not make it drinks it".

A mind is a terrible thing to waste indeed.

 

[cybrsage]

The term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.
http://www.hri.org/docs/ICERD66.html

AA is a racist program, since it provides a preference based on race.