Thoughts on Affirmative Action??

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DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
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Continue to ignore that fact that less qualified students were admitted over her simply because of race. Ignore the fact that AA has a detrimental affect on impoverish whites and Asians, especially Southeast Asians who faced so much hardship.
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81
Continue to ignore that fact that less qualified students were admitted over her simply because of race. Ignore the fact that AA has a detrimental affect on impoverish whites and Asians, especially Southeast Asians who faced so much hardship.

Uh... a fact has to be proven first. You don't know why she didn't get in. She doesn't either. The school already said they wouldnt have let her in regardless if they would have decided to use race against her or not. She is trying to use race as an excuse to sue the school. She is also suing them because she had to pay application fees to apply to other schools (such is life). She wants restitution for the time spent applying elsewhere and a band-aid for her wound since she wasnt UT material. If all else fails, blame race.

We are still going on and on about this. Going around the issue. UT released a statement in the court docket already. You are just trying to spin to issue to fit your idea that someone black probably took her spot.

That doesn't seem to be the case here. Sorry, I just doesn't. The court papers are available on the internet from when she filed her original complaint. So are the statements from UT against Ms. Fischer in the case.

The only people here who need to "Learn to Read" are those who would rather spin this as an Affirmative Action issue instead of looking at the facts about Ms. Fischer and her application to UT that have already been established.

Lastly

Can you prove that AA has a detrimental affect on impoverished whites and Asians? UT said socio-economic status are one of the things they look at when they review second pick applicants holistically. They also went along to say that a lot of poor white students benefit from that consideration as well.

Oh..what the hell, why am I even bothering, I posted links to all this stuff earlier.

For some reason you think that only blacks and latinos benefit from Affirmative Action when White women do as well. Affirmative Action is not just about race..which I'm sure you know, but change the definition of the program to suit.
 
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Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
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It is surely difficult to school the ignorant.

The US Supreme Court took her case because it has at least some truth/merit in it. Ms. Fisher did not just blow hot air out of her behind. Period.

Because even UT lawyers had to say:

Inside the court, attorneys for the university argued that race is never considered alone, but only as part of a holistic approach that takes a variety of factors into consideration.*They admitted, however, that one goal is to increase the percentage of black students on campus.

But because that does not create a "critical mass" of racial groups,*the school also considers race in filling out the rest of each year's class.

Of course, we all know "using race" = always use HS grade, SAT/ACT score, and extra curriculum activities and NOTHING else, right??? ROTFLMAO (sarcastic). If you do believe in that, I have several nice houses on sandy beach at the swamp land in Louisiana for sale very cheap.


Speaking of ignorant and immature, this is what Ms. Fisher (a HS honor grad with better than SAT score plus a college grad from an accredited school) was being labeled as: (and I am quoting words for words)
bottom of the barrel..etc.

Same folks that also said gems like these: (again, I am quoting words for words)
Go back to your double-wide and fry something.

Can you imagine a white person says “go back to your ghetto housing project and eat your water melon/fried chicken then drink some grape soda”?

No wonder why another poster said to that said person:

You are beyond ignorant. Truly ignorant.

 
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SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81
It is surely difficult to school the ignorant.

The US Supreme Court took her case because it has at least some truth/merit in it. Because even UT lawyers had to say:



Of course, we all know "using race" = always use HS grade, SAT/ACT score, and extra curriculum activities and NOTHING else, right??? ROTFLMAO (sarcastic). If you do believe in that, I have several nice houses on sandy beach at the swamp land in Louisiana for sale very cheap.


Speaking of ignorant and immature, this is what Ms. Fisher (a HS honor grad with better than SAT score plus a college grad from an accredited school) ...

Uh...right, she graduated with honors but not at the top of her class like UT wanted = bottom of the barrel pick. Sorry, you're reaching with this. She graduated in the top 14% of her class..not the top 10%..not the top 5%...FOURTEEN.

Better SAT score and GPA than WHO? Did you know the incoming Freshman class at UT last year had a 3.8 GPA and 1850 Average SAT scores. So again...better SAT scores than WHO? The applicants for the school she was applying to? Nope. Not at all.


And...


You do know that those statements from UT were made AFTER the case went to the Supreme Court? She petitioned her complaint to the Supreme Court on the basis of Civil Rights Violations.

Who needs to learn to read now?

Can you imagine a white person says “go back to your ghetto housing project and eat your water melon/fried chicken then drink some grape soda”?*


LOL Right, because I made a Southerner joke because you were White and not because you were from the South.

Be honest, that is how you really feel about blacks. We all benefit NEED Affirmative Action, live in the ghetto, have multiple "baby daddies", are on Welfare, etc.

I hate Watermelon, Grape Soda isnt the best and EVERYBODY likes Fried Chicken.
 
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Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
Ladies and gentlemen, as you can see with your own eyes, they can try to spin and spin and paint facts as something else, try to label others with racist stereotypes, the truth is still coming out.

Just as 1180 will always be >>> 1120. I just could not believe that ignorant folk could not see that.

Amazing.

And DO NOT quote me with my name in as I said before, you are not worthy to do so, you ignorant racist fool. Go away, learn some math and how to use facts and logic. Better yet, take that AA and set aside programs with you and shove it up to....
 
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SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81
Ladies and gentlemen, as you can see with your own eyes, they can try to spin and spin and paint facts as something else, the truth is still coming out.

Just as 1180 will always be >>> 1120. I just could not believe that ignorant folk could not see that.

Amazing.

And DO NOT quote me with my name in as I said before, you are not worthy to do so, you ignorant racist fool. Go away, learn some math and how to use facts and logic.


I'm Racist?! HAHAHA


Learn to use facts and logic? I was the one who bothered to dig up the admissions info while you were sitting around claiming she didnt get in because of Affirmative Action. I was the one who finally dug up her REAL SAT scores while you sat around talking about blacks and latinos taking her spot.

And you still don't understand UT's Top 10% policy..because you keep claiming that Ms. Fischer was a competitive candidate. Yea, maybe for Louisiana State. Not UT.


What are you going to do if I quote you again? Say something else about how hopeless I am because I'm black?

No really..what are you going to do?
 
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shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,079
136
Everyone is ignorant. Just on different subjects. Nobody here is a serious expert on politics, if we were we would not be here. We'd be elsewhere, making important decisions. At the very least we wouldnt give our knowledge away for free. We'd charge money.
 

JKing106

Platinum Member
Mar 19, 2009
2,193
0
0
She didn't get in because she wasn't smart enough. Period. 1100-1200 on the SAT is average, average, average. Daddy's little princess was told no for the first time in her life, shitfit commences. Tough shit. Stand aside and let those who didn't make a mediocre score pass, and go on to community college where you belong.
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81
She didn't get in because she wasn't smart enough. Period. 1100-1200 on the SAT is average, average, average. Daddy's little princess was told no for the first time in her life, shitfit commences. Tough shit. Stand aside and let those who didn't make a mediocre score pass, and go on to community college where you belong.

*She got an 1180/1600 (Math and Reading only). More specifically, she got 680/800 on the Math and 500/800 in Reading.

But still average. Continue.

Including the writing portion of the SAT (which UT doesn't care about), Ms. Fischer doesn't even come close to the average composite (out of 2400) score that are typical of their incoming Freshman classes. She also doesn't fit in GPA wise with their incoming freshman classes either, coming in with just a 3.59, a 1180 on the SAT and graduating in the top 14% of her class. She wasn't UT material.

She got into another University that isnt as selective as The University of Texas.

All of this was easily found out by researching.

But, I digress. I'm ignorant and racist and I need to learn to read (Ms. Fisher too! 500/800..).


*There was another girl who originally filed suit with her (Ms. Fischer) but dropped her case. The girl in question graduated in the top 10.14% of her class, had a 3.8 and a 1256 on the SAT. The school denied her because they said 10.14% wasnt good enough. I suppose they mediated the issue with her after they filed the complaint.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
At this point it seems pretty cut and dried that Ms. Fisher would not have made the cut absent any affirmative action program. Someone was knocked out of a spot by an affirmative action entrance, but it wasn't her. It's impossible for any of us to make an informed judgment about the relative academic worth of the affirmative action students versus those whose grades and SATs would otherwise have gotten them in; all we can do is in the abstract say affirmative action is bad. But if we're to make that assertion, we also have to look at the effect of not having affirmative action, which is also bad. It's much better to lift up the downtrodden rather than to lower the bar for them, but until we figure out how to do that, affirmative action is the best we can do. Given this, I assume that SCOTUS took this case because it offers a clear legal circumstance to define what is and is not acceptable behavior - what can and cannot be counted as equal to scholastic potential and achievement - in an area SCOTUS considers in need to change or definition. While it's theoretically possible SCOTUS will strike down affirmative action, I'd guess it's much more likely SCOTUS will make a small change in how slots are apportioned or how various factors are weighted.

Look at Europe; many European nations have ethnic underclasses of 2% to maybe 10% of population. That pits one group against another and gives a significant number of citizens no real stake in the country's success. This is a very bad thing, even absent the legacy of slavery, segregation and institutionalized discrimination. In my own state of Tennessee blacks are represented at university at roughly half their general population percentage even with affirmative action, so clearly this needs to be addressed. The University of Texas also enrolls blacks at roughly half their general population percentage, so it's going to be difficult to claim it is unreasonably favoring blacks over Ms. Fisher.

Affirmative action is government's version of the prodigal son. I was once denied the opportunity to even apply for a TVA training program (steam plant operator) because it was limited to minorities because there were very few minority steam plant operators. Guess what - I'm not making as much as I would as a steam plant operator, but I'm doing fine. That's the point of affirmative action, the majority can take care of itself without any special benefits and can even afford to raise the bar a bit. I look forward to the day when government at least is truly colorblind, but that day isn't today.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
At this point it seems pretty cut and dried that Ms. Fisher would not have made the cut absent any affirmative action program. Someone was knocked out of a spot by an affirmative action entrance, but it wasn't her. It's impossible for any of us to make an informed judgment about the relative academic worth of the affirmative action students versus those whose grades and SATs would otherwise have gotten them in; all we can do is in the abstract say affirmative action is bad. But if we're to make that assertion, we also have to look at the effect of not having affirmative action, which is also bad. It's much better to lift up the downtrodden rather than to lower the bar for them, but until we figure out how to do that, affirmative action is the best we can do. Given this, I assume that SCOTUS took this case because it offers a clear legal circumstance to define what is and is not acceptable behavior - what can and cannot be counted as equal to scholastic potential and achievement - in an area SCOTUS considers in need to change or definition. While it's theoretically possible SCOTUS will strike down affirmative action, I'd guess it's much more likely SCOTUS will make a small change in how slots are apportioned or how various factors are weighted.

Look at Europe; many European nations have ethnic underclasses of 2% to maybe 10% of population. That pits one group against another and gives a significant number of citizens no real stake in the country's success. This is a very bad thing, even absent the legacy of slavery, segregation and institutionalized discrimination. In my own state of Tennessee blacks are represented at university at roughly half their general population percentage even with affirmative action, so clearly this needs to be addressed. The University of Texas also enrolls blacks at roughly half their general population percentage, so it's going to be difficult to claim it is unreasonably favoring blacks over Ms. Fisher.

Affirmative action is government's version of the prodigal son. I was once denied the opportunity to even apply for a TVA training program (steam plant operator) because it was limited to minorities because there were very few minority steam plant operators. Guess what - I'm not making as much as I would as a steam plant operator, but I'm doing fine. That's the point of affirmative action, the majority can take care of itself without any special benefits and can even afford to raise the bar a bit. I look forward to the day when government at least is truly colorblind, but that day isn't today.

Then how do we explain the fact that around 30 to 40% of those admitted had lower SAT and Grades than her.

Their is also a second named plantiff who scored 1290 on her SAT and 3.867 on her SAT. The second plantiff was also in the top 10.14% of her class.
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81
Then how do we explain the fact that around 30 to 40% of those admitted had lower SAT and Grades than her.

Their is also a second named plantiff who scored 1290 on her SAT and 3.867 on her SAT. The second plantiff was also in the top 10.14% of her class.

Source?

And...

There is no second plantiff anymore. She dropped her complaint a while ago. She was denied due to a disagreement between UT and her HS about their ranking methods. They told her 10.14% is not something they'll recognize. She appealed and they denied her. She ended up going somewhere else and got scholarships..next thing you know, she dropped her complaint. In the original petition, Ms. Fischer was suing for damages incurred due to having to pay application fees to go elsewhere and deposits on tuition.
 
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DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
Source?

And...

There is no second plantiff anymore. She dropped her complaint a while ago.

The top bottom 25% is 1120 and she got 1180 she got higher than the bottom 25% at least. The average 50% was 1230, we can extrapolate that with an 1180 she was some where in the 30 to 40% range.
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Then how do we explain the fact that around 30 to 40% of those admitted had lower SAT and Grades than her.

Their is also a second named plantiff who scored 1290 on her SAT and 3.867 on her SAT. The second plantiff was also in the top 10.14% of her class.
Some of those are undoubtedly legacies; if a parent is a graduate (and makes contributions) they'll cut you some slack. That was one of the original justifications of affirmative action in college admissions - having long been explicitly kept out of many universities and by circumstance largely shut out of all non-black universities, blacks would be unlikely to ever catch up as they would need to be much more qualified.

I don't think you can extrapolate a single bell curve for SATs because this is a subset of all students, and worse, a subset created of disparate pieces grouped by disparate criteria. To the extent that students get in based on SAT scores, those selected by that criterion would be a section of the bell curve. But although some other students would get in based on grades, there is no doubt still a floor for SAT scores even for purely academic admissions.

Students whose academics and SATs would not get them in include various groups, probably including athletes, legacies, extracurricular activities, and diversity/affirmative action admissions. But eliminate any of these groups and UT would not merely drop admission standards to make up the numbers, they would also cast a wider net. An applicant graduating with honors in the top 10.14% might well make it, but I'm guessing Ms. Fisher would not. That's of course speculation as none of us know exactly how UT admission standards would change absent affirmative action. For one thing though, I'd imagine UT would get more aggressive about pursuing minorities (probably not Asians, but at least underrepresented minorities) who graduate within the top 10% of their classes, much like athletes are pursued, with personal attention, financial aid, and tutoring. But the same people within UT who now support affirmative action would still have the desire to have a diverse student body.

One very bad thing about affirmative action is that it lowers standards at a time when we desperately need higher academic performance. But that's not our only need; we also need to raise blacks out of the lower socioeconomic ranks, both as a practical matter and as a recognition that collectively we're partly responsible for their performance.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Continue to ignore that fact that less qualified students were admitted over her simply because of race. Ignore the fact that AA has a detrimental affect on impoverish whites and Asians, especially Southeast Asians who faced so much hardship.
It does indeed have a detrimental effect on individuals within those groups. There is no way government can make someone's life without making someone else's life worse, and in the case of affirmative action it's a one-for-one exchange. That's unfortunate, but it's the cheapest, easiest way to raise up an identifiable group.

One thing espoused by some immigrants or those who identify strongly with a particular ethnic group is I think in error is this idea that if I (or my ethnic group) can succeed within the existing system, so can blacks. This is inarguably true; any black kid has the ability to seek out and embrace education and succeed within the existing system. But I think it's also a misconception of the concept of affirmative action which is not to save those kids, but to save the kids who won't succeed on their own, but who could and would succeed with a better background, school system, and/or parents, the kids who want to succeed academically but just aren't quite smart enough or quite driven enough to overcome their particular circumstances. Sucks for members of racial groups who fall into that category and don't get a hand up. Sucks even more for members of racial groups who fall just shy of the revised bar, the standards after they have been artificially raised to let in those benefiting from affirmative action. That's the consequences of using government, which is inherently a blunt instrument.
 
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