Thoughts on Affirmative Action??

[bfdd]

If you take race into consideration that makes you racist. If the system takes race into consideration the system is racist. If you support race based affirmative action you are a racist. If you support the concept of affirmative action you are only an idiot so don't be to freaked out.

 

[werepossum]

I'd say the proper definition of racist is one who believes that people of a certain race are automatically inherently superior, or inherently inferior, based on common traits of that race. To use one very narrow example, imagine children adopted at birth to affluent white couples, some from African and some from Asia and some from Europe, so there is zero difference in culture, surroundings, or nutrition. A belief that these children would systematically differ in performance results by race would be a racist belief. (Obviously that's not quite exactly true since the culture around them is not necessarily racially neutral, but it's as close to neutral as I can posit of the top of my head.)

By contrast, affirmative action is a recognition of two undeniable truths. First, that blacks and to perhaps a lesser degree other minorities are on average disadvantaged compared to whites. We don't have to agree on the exact mixture of blame between internal culture and external biasing factors to recognize this truth. Second, that government is ill-equipped to remedy this disadvantage. Government has limited control over individuals and by its nature can implement only a limited number of mechanisms to solve any given problem, and current progressive thinking aside government also has limited means. Yet the factors that put (and keep) an individual in poverty, or otherwise limit her potential, vary extremely and are often very complex. Given this variance and complexity, and limited funds, any government solution will be a blunt instrument that does almost as much harm as good. Addressing many diverse and complicated factors for poverty is much more difficult, and much more expensive, than simply punishing some individuals so that other individuals of a chosen skin color can have an easier climb to prosperity.

Within that framework (which I think is arguable only in details rather than in principal), affirmative action serves to artificially lower the standards required for blacks and other non-Asian minorities under the theory that they will continue to work just as hard and therefore will achieve proportionately better results. However, although affirmative action, although race-based, is not racist because it presupposes no inherent deficiency in blacks and other minorities. One could in fact argue just the opposite, that affirmative action presupposes there is no inherent deficiency in blacks and other minorities and thus by lowering the bar to education and federal jobs, these minorities will as a group gradually lift themselves out of poverty. If affirmative action presupposed an inherent deficiency in blacks and other minorities, it would presumably have been set up to simply redistribute wealth to minorities under the assumption that as a group they could never compete with whites.

There are lots of problems with affirmative action, but it's not a racist program any more than identifying Angela Bassett as black is racist. Government isn't favoring blacks, or disfavoring Asians, based on any inherent assumptions of inferiority or superiority, but rather on the basis of reality in performance. Sucks for those Asians (and occasional whites) who get shunted aside, but when you wield a very large blunt hammer you'll bust some thumbs no matter how lofty your goals.

 

[SheHateMe]

Werepossum,

Where did the Angela Bassett thing come from? lol


But I agree with everything you said. I guess we're both racist.

I never said in this thread that Affirmative Action was a good thing, but I also don't agree that it is the worstthingeverandseekstokeepwhitepeopleandasiansoutofpositionssoblacksandlatinoscangetjobstheydon'tqualifyfor.

Phew, that was a doozy to get out.

 

[werepossum]

Werepossum,

Where did the Angela Bassett thing come from? lol


But I agree with everything you said. I guess we're both racist.

I never said in this thread that Affirmative Action was a good thing, but I also don't agree that it is the worstthingeverandseekstokeepwhitepeopleandasiansoutofpositionssoblacksandlatinoscangetjobstheydon'tqualifyfor.

Phew, that was a doozy to get out.

Oh, I'm just always looking for an excuse to think about Angela Bassett.

I think affirmative action is a pretty bad thing, but it's better than doing nothing. And so far I've not seen an alternative I thought workable. My preference would be to raise disadvantaged minority children to a level that would have universities competing to have them and employers rushing to hire them, but besides being much more expensive than we can afford at the moment, pouring money into failed school systems like Detroit's doesn't usually translate into proportionally better results. For the immediate future, I think we're stuck with affirmative action as the only workable, affordable way of addressing the problem.

 

[SheHateMe]

Oh, I'm just always looking for an excuse to think about Angela Bassett.

I think affirmative action is a pretty bad thing, but it's better than doing nothing. And so far I've not seen an alternative I thought workable. My preference would be to raise disadvantaged minority children to a level that would have universities competing to have them and employers rushing to hire them, but besides being much more expensive than we can afford at the moment, pouring money into failed school systems like Detroit's doesn't usually translate into proportionally better results. For the immediate future, I think we're stuck with affirmative action as the only workable, affordable way of addressing the problem.

I think Universities and Corporations have been doing a good job of doing outreach to disadvantaged youth..I think the problem is maybe the scope of the outreach? They can't reach everyone, obviously...but I think there are more effective programs than coming to schools to talk for an hour or doing some after school buddy-buddy stuff.

When you finish talking to these kids...they go back to their homes and neighborhoods, which could be a good or a bad thing. I'm thinking the latter, I used to be one of those kids.

Maybe come up with summer camps or something of that nature to take these kids out of their habitats and expose them to something else.

For instance, my mom used to drive us out to the rich neighborhoods sometimes on the weekends so we could see how successful people lived. She also took us to the company picnics..which was um..an experience.

When I played Basketball and Softball, I could see the noticeable differences in the school I went to and the schools out in the rich areas. It inspired me to escape my shitty life in one way or another.




But, that was YEARS ago!

 

[Svnla]

@ possum,

I do agree with you that AA and set aside programs are not racist programs as in the “superior” sense of racism. I do and there are a lot of people like me believe that AA and set aside programs pick unqualified candidates over others solely based on race/color.

Let go back to the lady of this lawsuit, Ms. Fisher. She claimed that she did not get in UT but there were OTHERS (note the plural) with lower test score and GPA got in because of their race. How could that be acceptable if the accusation was true? How could we use BS reasons as “diversity”, “different enrichment”, "hollistic approach" as the reasons to pick lesser qualified folks(as in test scores and GPAs) over others, regardless of their colors? Why can't we just use standardized test scores, GPAs in HS, and extra curriculum activities as the sole standard for college admission? Why can't we pick the best of the best regardless of race, color, creed, sexual orientation, etc.? How about this, anyone with 1500 SAT or higher and 3.9 GPA or higher, let get them in first. After that, let get 1400 and 3.8 next, and so on until the school got a full class. Sound good to me.

The lawsuit from Ms. Fisher was about the applicants with lower test scores and GPAs that got in UT because of their races, not about her qualification.

See the link I provide above, even the lawyers of UT admitted that they did and still do use race in the admission process. That shows me they did not use test scores and GPAs of all applicants solely in the process and more than likely, Ms. Fisher’s accusation would be true.

As EK stated above, there ARE processes and steps to help students in inner cities to better themselves IF and ONLY IF they choose to do so. As I stated above, SE Asian students arrived in the US with almost nothing and yet, within a few years, they were able to kick butts in schools and colleges even WITHOUT any form of AA and set aside programs. Even those SE Asian students went to the very same public school systems as blacks and Hispanics, they sure did not go to any rich private schools. Why is that? Why can't blacks and hispanics do the same instead of relying on AA and set aside programs? (not all of them of course)

Another thing, if racist bastards in HS and colleges are against blacks or hispanics, they will more than likely against EVERYONE else that are not white. Make you wonder why there is a HUGE discrepancy of HS graduation between Asians and whites (92% and 82%) vs. blacks and Hispanics (65% and much lower in inner cities schools) from my PBS Frontline link above.

 

[werepossum]

I think Universities and Corporations have been doing a good job of doing outreach to disadvantaged youth..I think the problem is maybe the scope of the outreach? They can't reach everyone, obviously...but I think there are more effective programs than coming to schools to talk for an hour or doing some after school buddy-buddy stuff.

When you finish talking to these kids...they go back to their homes and neighborhoods, which could be a good or a bad thing. I'm thinking the latter, I used to be one of those kids.

Maybe come up with summer camps or something of that nature to take these kids out of their habitats and expose them to something else.

For instance, my mom used to drive us out to the rich neighborhoods sometimes on the weekends so we could see how successful people lived. She also took us to the company picnics..which was um..an experience.

When I played Basketball and Softball, I could see the noticeable differences in the school I went to and the schools out in the rich areas. It inspired me to escape my shitty life in one way or another.




But, that was YEARS ago!

Good points. The private sector needs to get involved as well, out of enlightened self-interest. If you're a big corporation, government mandates that you hire a certain number of minorities. Many times in a good economy you simply can't find qualified minority candidates locally. However - if you put up some money and make some local schools a priority, within a decade or two you'd have lots of qualified applicants. If you need, say, nuclear chemists, sponsoring basic science in a local school system (money AND personnel) should allow them to field students capable of handling the work and eager to take on the challenge. It's a long term commitment and not cheap by any means, but in return an employer gets not only better minority applicants, but better applicants overall. And since education is somewhat fungible, other fields benefit too.

Of course, you can't save everyone, and some are going to rise regardless. Between those two extremes are a bunch of kids who can be saved with moderate effort and expense. Generally it's parents like your mom who expose their children to the fruits of success and teach them that this flows from hard work and education rather than being the result of some sort of super subspecies of human that has nothing to do with you, but teachers and mentors can save some kids whose parents are unwilling or unable to do this.

 

[SheHateMe]

Good points. The private sector needs to get involved as well, out of enlightened self-interest. If you're a big corporation, government mandates that you hire a certain number of minorities. Many times in a good economy you simply can't find qualified minority candidates locally. However - if you put up some money and make some local schools a priority, within a decade or two you'd have lots of qualified applicants. If you need, say, nuclear chemists, sponsoring basic science in a local school system (money AND personnel) should allow them to field students capable of handling the work and eager to take on the challenge. It's a long term commitment and not cheap by any means, but in return an employer gets not only better minority applicants, but better applicants overall. And since education is somewhat fungible, other fields benefit too.

Of course, you can't save everyone, and some are going to rise regardless. Between those two extremes are a bunch of kids who can be saved with moderate effort and expense. Generally it's parents like your mom who expose their children to the fruits of success and teach them that this flows from hard work and education rather than being the result of some sort of super subspecies of human that has nothing to do with you, but teachers and mentors can save some kids whose parents are unwilling or unable to do this.

Exactly.

You want more black Engineers, go to a bad neighborhood and make a few of em. Many of these kids don't have support for ANYTHING in the communities. I guarantee if you go scoop a child up out of Detroit, LA, Baltimore..where ever else and keep them for a summer, introduce them to Engineering, math, and other blacks who have been successful with it..and you will reach one of them.

The problem with seeing successful black people on TV is that you cant reach those people, they don't seem real to you because its like living in two different worlds.

Before I started playing the piano and speaking Japanese, I started searching around everywhere around me to find another black person who was doing it so I could have some type of validation...its kind of ridiculous if you think about it, but it was the only motivation for me at the time. I kept thinking "I need to see someone who looks like me so I know its something I can do".

I was at the bus stop the other day and this woman was there with two of her kids. She kept telling them about how "their daddy aint shit" and "you two aint gonna be shit just like him"..all types of disgusting things. I felt bad, these kids were probably 8 or 9 years old. How well do you think these kids will turn out living with this woman for the next 10 or so years? But, this is the same type of stuff happening to kids in their communities in Detroit all the time. The "you aren't shit" mentality is very prevalent.

Even the leadership in Detroit think these kids aren't worth anything...look at how the School Board steals money money for the students...look at the condition of the schools, look at the conditions the teachers have to work under.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I contacted the library, not the school.

So other than being told that the "failing" schools are required to provide vouchers for a child to get free tutoring at learning centers, I have no additional info on how the school district handles it.

Does the local school have the authority to fill out a paper or does the child have to go to the school district admin offices?

Such is beyond the scope of what I volunteered to find out.

I learned and presented enough to back up my claim that a child has the opportunity and the resources are there for them to advance out of the "ghetto" school systems and make something of themselves.

But the child has to have the desire.

AA provides excuses for the lack of desire to pretend that the child can do it. The child is not prepared and is then able to shift the blame on everything but themselves.

 

[SheHateMe]

I contacted the library, not the school.

So other than being told that the "failing" schools are required to provide vouchers for a child to get free tutoring at learning centers, I have no additional info on how the school district handles it.

Does the local school have the authority to fill out a paper or does the child have to go to the school district admin offices?

Such is beyond the scope of what I volunteered to find out.

I learned and presented enough to back up my claim that a child has the opportunity and the resources are there for them to advance out of the "ghetto" school systems and make something of themselves.

But the child has to have the desire.

AA provides excuses for the lack of desire to pretend that the child can do it. The child is not prepared and is then able to shift the blame on everything but themselves.

So, you found out the opportunity is there for free tutoring..permitting the child can get a referral from the school,etc.

I just wanted to know if you asked the libraries how often the receive referrals. I wasn't asking you to volunteer for another project.

 

[werepossum]

Exactly.

You want more black Engineers, go to a bad neighborhood and make a few of em. Many of these kids don't have support for ANYTHING in the communities. I guarantee if you go scoop a child up out of Detroit, LA, Baltimore..where ever else and keep them for a summer, introduce them to Engineering, math, and other blacks who have been successful with it..and you will reach one of them.

The problem with seeing successful black people on TV is that you cant reach those people, they don't seem real to you because its like living in two different worlds.

Before I started playing the piano and speaking Japanese, I started searching around everywhere around me to find another black person who was doing it so I could have some type of validation...its kind of ridiculous if you think about it, but it was the only motivation for me at the time. I kept thinking "I need to see someone who looks like me so I know its something I can do".

I was at the bus stop the other day and this woman was there with two of her kids. She kept telling them about how "their daddy aint shit" and "you two aint gonna be shit just like him"..all types of disgusting things. I felt bad, these kids were probably 8 or 9 years old. How well do you think these kids will turn out living with this woman for the next 10 or so years? But, this is the same type of stuff happening to kids in their communities in Detroit all the time. The "you aren't shit" mentality is very prevalent.

Even the leadership in Detroit think these kids aren't worth anything...look at how the School Board steals money money for the students...look at the condition of the schools, look at the conditions the teachers have to work under.

Agreed, I HATE to hear people tell their kids they are stupid or worthless. I was behind a lady at Walmart who was telling her two kids "Put that down - you are so stupid." Pretty lady too, well dressed and well groomed, not at all your typical Walmartian or welfare mother. Those kids are going to have a very hard time amounting to anything because when they've been taught they are stupid or worthless, why even try? Her kids were looking at the impulse items at the checkout lines, just exhibiting curiosity which is a GOOD thing. Nothing fragile, expensive or dangerous, and it's Walmart - they wouldn't even ask you to buy it if they broke it.

I didn't have much when I was young - we didn't even have an indoor bathroom until I was maybe 7 - but I can't imagine growing up in a home where one's mother tells you you are stupid or worthless. The greatest things one can give one's child are hope, dreams, self-confidence. Those things are free, for Christ's sake.

I know what you mean about looking for validation that you CAN do something. As a small child I thought some people had money and some didn't, and that's just the way it was. But being white it's easier to imagine you might be one of those people someday, because the vast majority of the people who had money looked more or less like me. I have great parents but even if I hadn't, making that leap would have been easier than if all the people with money had looked completely different and all the people that looked like me were poor.

 

[razor2025]

Why do people still perpetuate the "model minority" Asian myth? I guess it fits in the political narrative of "look at them, they've succeeded by boot-strapping!". This paper goes into a nice brief about why this myth exists and how it actually hurts Asian Americans:

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/model02.htm

Asian immigrants to the U.S. tend to be already highly educated and from the middle or upper class, for a number of reasons. Thus, they get a completely different start in life in the U.S. compared to other minorities. Although Asians achieve a much greater degree of success in the U.S., the "model minority" stereotype is a myth because Asian-Americans still bump into the glass ceiling, receive lower pay even with the same qualifications, and have higher poverty rates. The image of boat people escaping the ravages of war and communism to take full advantage of American opportunities is also a myth, in that Southeast Asians actually have the lowest success rate of all Asians.

I love how DCal simply repeats his assertion that "his people" came to US on boats and were "successful", with absolutely zero statistics to back it up.

As for Ms. Fisher, she just needs to suck up that her application wasn't good enough. There's a reason why college admissions looks at applicants HOLISTICALLY. Ms. Fisher is pretty average applicant going into a competitive school. Given her advantageous background, she wasn't all that special. 3.59 GPA means jack, when we don't have exact details on her HS classes and their difficulty (and also her peers, since she's not in top 10% of her class). 1180 / 1600 is pretty mediocre score for applying at a competitive Public school. Anyone who thinks that kind of academic performance as "deserving" is lying through their teeth.

The thing that grinds my axe with Ms. Fisher is this. She believes that other admitted students were "inferior applicants" compared to her, and hence she's filing a lawsuit. Oh really Ms. Fisher? Have you examined the entirety of their admissions packet? Were you there at the admissions council when they were deciding who gets in? Is there empirical evidence that those students were "inferior" to you? Has it not occurred to her that she was just a mediocre applicant that failed to reach her dream?

AA isn't the problem. It's the people who fail to recognize that society is still largely affected by historical events, even if they were hundreds of years ago.

 

[EagleKeeper]

So, you found out the opportunity is there for free tutoring..permitting the child can get a referral from the school,etc.

I just wanted to know if you asked the libraries how often the receive referrals. I wasn't asking you to volunteer for another project.

Library would not know.

That is school district info.

Main librarian knew because of contacts with Sylvian and apparently that information has been spread within the library system for kids looking for reading assistance / books.

Does the schools themselves advertise the fact that such support is available? Your guess is as good as mine. I suspect that they know that it is there; but no flyers are posted for the kids to view. Someone would have to go and ask for tutoring assistance to be told that such help is available.

 

[SheHateMe]

Why do people still perpetuate the "model minority" Asian myth? I guess it fits in the political narrative of "look at them, they've succeeded by boot-strapping!". This paper goes into a nice brief about why this myth exists and how it actually hurts Asian Americans:

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/model02.htm



I love how DCal simply repeats his assertion that "his people" came to US on boats and were "successful", with absolutely zero statistics to back it up.

As for Ms. Fisher, she just needs to suck up that her application wasn't good enough. There's a reason why college admissions looks at applicants HOLISTICALLY. Ms. Fisher is pretty average applicant going into a competitive school. Given her advantageous background, she wasn't all that special. 3.59 GPA means jack, when we don't have exact details on her HS classes and their difficulty (and also her peers, since she's not in top 10% of her class). 1180 / 1600 is pretty mediocre score for applying at a competitive Public school. Anyone who thinks that kind of academic performance as "deserving" is lying through their teeth.

The thing that grinds my axe with Ms. Fisher is this. She believes that other admitted students were "inferior applicants" compared to her, and hence she's filing a lawsuit. Oh really Ms. Fisher? Have you examined the entirety of their admissions packet? Were you there at the admissions council when they were deciding who gets in? Is there empirical evidence that those students were "inferior" to you? Has it not occurred to her that she was just a mediocre applicant that failed to reach her dream?

AA isn't the problem. It's the people who fail to recognize that society is still largely affected by historical events, even if they were hundreds of years ago.

Apparently, she has insider knowledge that a minority with a test score and GPA lower than hers got in..LOL.

From what I gathered, she went to a very good HS. Her GPA only got her in the top 14% of her graduating class. If thats what she achieved with a 3.59...imagine what the top 10% had.

But no, like a few people have already asserted multiple times in this thread..the only reason she didnt get in was because a black or a latino took her spot.

Someone even went so far as to say that all the black and latino students should have to divulge their academic records.

That sounds like racial profiling... For all we know, a white kid took her spot. Ms. Fischer doesnt know..she's just pissed. In her original complaint against the school, she and another girl filed together. The other girl had a 3.8 GPA and a 1200+ on her SAT. The school denied her because she only came in the Top 10.14% of her graduating class...it sucks, but instead of saying "but..Im WHITE!", she went to a better school.

The best thing you can do when getting rejected by a school is go to a better one. Thats what I did. I was deadset on Penn State in HS (2008). Got rejected and looked to the other schools I applied for. Glad I went to Michigan State instead.

 

[Svnla]

Why do people still perpetuate the "model minority" Asian myth? I guess it fits in the political narrative of "look at them, they've succeeded by boot-strapping!". This paper goes into a nice brief about why this myth exists and how it actually hurts Asian Americans:

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/model02.htm



I love how DCal simply repeats his assertion that "his people" came to US on boats and were "successful", with absolutely zero statistics to back it up.

As for Ms. Fisher, she just needs to suck up that her application wasn't good enough. There's a reason why college admissions looks at applicants HOLISTICALLY. Ms. Fisher is pretty average applicant going into a competitive school. Given her advantageous background, she wasn't all that special. 3.59 GPA means jack, when we don't have exact details on her HS classes and their difficulty (and also her peers, since she's not in top 10% of her class). 1180 / 1600 is pretty mediocre score for applying at a competitive Public school. Anyone who thinks that kind of academic performance as "deserving" is lying through their teeth.

The thing that grinds my axe with Ms. Fisher is this. She believes that other admitted students were "inferior applicants" compared to her, and hence she's filing a lawsuit. Oh really Ms. Fisher? Have you examined the entirety of their admissions packet? Were you there at the admissions council when they were deciding who gets in? Is there empirical evidence that those students were "inferior" to you? Has it not occurred to her that she was just a mediocre applicant that failed to reach her dream?

AA isn't the problem. It's the people who fail to recognize that society is still largely affected by historical events, even if they were hundreds of years ago.

I can not speak for DCCal but this is what I see from my research:

Goyette and Xie point out that some
groups (such as Chinese and Southeast Asians) have on average lower
income levels than whites yet still outperform white students academically.
This translates to expectations as well: although Southeast Asians are
poorer than whites, they still reported higher educational expectations than​

whites.

http://www.uwec.edu/ASC/resources/upload/AsAmStu.pdf

Are those folks "perfect" or "model"? Heck no IMO but at least they were trying instead of blaming on whiteys/racists/<fill in the blank multiple excuses> on self inflicted wounds/problems as certain group would like to do indefinitely.

Plus the link from my previous post with PBS Frontline link about Asian students as a whole group with 92% graduation from HS vs. 82% for whites vs. 65% for blacks and hispanics.

Your post proved my statement about Asian students were being discriminated in school/college and even after they graduated, not just blacks and hispanics being discriminate against just by themselves.

I can't speak for Ms. Fisher but as the link I provided above, UT lawyers admitted race was used and is still using in admission process at UT. If all of the candidates that got in that year were better than Ms. Fisher, as in GPA and SAT test score, don't you think UT admission and record folks would say so already?

If her case was weak or frivolous , why would the United States Supreme Court, the highest court of the land, would bother to take on her case? I rather keep an open mind, wait for the evidences to come in than dismiss her case and tried to spin her as "bottom of the barrel".

 

[SheHateMe]

They already said she wouldn't have been admitted even if they actually took race into account.

They said that when she filed her initial complaint..they are still saying it.


She just wasn't UT material. Their incoming freshman class for 2011 had an average SAT score of 1858 I believe with GPA's around 3.8. I could only imagine what the incoming class for 2008 (her year) had.


Shit happens.

But, I guess pulling the race card and suing a University puts a band-aid on the wound.

 

[DCal430]

Why do people still perpetuate the "model minority" Asian myth? I guess it fits in the political narrative of "look at them, they've succeeded by boot-strapping!". This paper goes into a nice brief about why this myth exists and how it actually hurts Asian Americans:

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/model02.htm



I love how DCal simply repeats his assertion that "his people" came to US on boats and were "successful", with absolutely zero statistics to back it up.

As for Ms. Fisher, she just needs to suck up that her application wasn't good enough. There's a reason why college admissions looks at applicants HOLISTICALLY. Ms. Fisher is pretty average applicant going into a competitive school. Given her advantageous background, she wasn't all that special. 3.59 GPA means jack, when we don't have exact details on her HS classes and their difficulty (and also her peers, since she's not in top 10% of her class). 1180 / 1600 is pretty mediocre score for applying at a competitive Public school. Anyone who thinks that kind of academic performance as "deserving" is lying through their teeth.

The thing that grinds my axe with Ms. Fisher is this. She believes that other admitted students were "inferior applicants" compared to her, and hence she's filing a lawsuit. Oh really Ms. Fisher? Have you examined the entirety of their admissions packet? Were you there at the admissions council when they were deciding who gets in? Is there empirical evidence that those students were "inferior" to you? Has it not occurred to her that she was just a mediocre applicant that failed to reach her dream?

AA isn't the problem. It's the people who fail to recognize that society is still largely affected by historical events, even if they were hundreds of years ago.

Nice posting data from over 20 years ago. Data that is misleading. My sources are the U.S Census Bureau.

FACT as of the 2008 to 2010 ACS, Southeast Asians ages 25 to 34 have lower H.S drop out rates than Non-Hispanic Whites.

FACT as of the 2008 to 2010 ACS, Southeast Asians ages 25 to 34 have higher percent of Bachelors and Higher, than Non-Hispanic Whites.

The myth is what people like you claim by posting misleading statistics to people.

While it is true SEA still do not have the sucess of Chinese, they still have greater sucess than Non-Hispanic Whites when it comes to education.

I love how any advancement by a group is just ignored by you, because all you do is post numbers that are decades old, numbers that were misleading then even.

 

[werepossum]

I contacted the library, not the school.

So other than being told that the "failing" schools are required to provide vouchers for a child to get free tutoring at learning centers, I have no additional info on how the school district handles it.

Does the local school have the authority to fill out a paper or does the child have to go to the school district admin offices?

Such is beyond the scope of what I volunteered to find out.

I learned and presented enough to back up my claim that a child has the opportunity and the resources are there for them to advance out of the "ghetto" school systems and make something of themselves.

But the child has to have the desire.

AA provides excuses for the lack of desire to pretend that the child can do it. The child is not prepared and is then able to shift the blame on everything but themselves.

This is all true, but the point of affirmative action is to lift minorities out of relative poverty as a group. While some children will always claw their way out of any situation, and most of those with very good parents will succeed given opportunities like this, we still have the problem of the majority of the students. Most people are NOT self-motivating, especially as children. Many ghetto parents are either apathetic to their children's success, are MIA, or are actively opposed to "acting white", or are convinced there's simply no point because the system is not going to let them succeed whether because of the rich, or racial prejudice, or religious intolerance, or whatever. The problem is compounded when poor people are grouped into segregated (or virtually so) areas. When the only successful people you see who look like you are athletes or entertainers, where would you even get the dream of being an engineer or chemist or programmer? Assuming the child does encounter an engineer or chemist or programmer, how likely is that child to be able to see herself in that field? For instance, I dreamed of being an engineer after learning that a friend's father was an engineer. I admired him, and he had a nice brick house (not a mansion by any means, but it didn't have a tin roof and a wall full of bees either) and a nice middle class lifestyle, and he described doing interesting things, so I thought an engineer must be a pretty good thing to be. Could I have seen myself as an engineer had he and every other engineer I ever saw (which was pretty close to zero) been Chinese? Or would I have assumed, at least subconsciously, that engineers had to be Chinese?

The problem is saving as many as possible of the children who don't have the Tiger Moms (of any race) and don't have the rare gifts of brilliance and self-motivation. Affirmative action assumes that if you can lower the bar for those minorities closest to reaching it, you help close the racial divide, with the further implicit assumption that these minorities will use that opportunity to make themselves fully qualified. If a man uses affirmative action to get a good job and never really becomes qualified to hold that job, our society is the poorer just as if he'd used family connections or union influence to gain and hold the job, but even then his children won't be raised inside crushing poverty. Statistically then, affirmative action will have worked in the long term. It's certainly arguable to what extent AA succeeds and to what extent it lowers our society, but most people agree it's not moral to have a persistent subclass trapped in poverty, and even less so if that subclass is racially identifiable, AND still less acceptable if that racial group has been the victims of race-based slavery, discrimination and segregation. If you prevent a group of people from getting on the bus, it's not enough to stop preventing them from getting on the bus just because a few of those left behind are fleet-footed enough to run it down and board. You have to give them the same chance to get on the bus as everyone else, and that inevitably means diverting resources away from others until the disadvantaged group is up to speed.

I can see the evils of affirmative action, but I also see the need. I'm certainly open to ending it, but in good conscious we need to have a workable replacement first. Preferably a workable replacement that starts alongside affirmative action for a few years as proof of concept and to work out the bugs. I'd love to see a system that ends the racial divide by going into poor areas and lifting up ALL of the kids, or at least as many as can be saved. But for the time being affirmative action is the best we can afford.

 

[werepossum]

Apparently, she has insider knowledge that a minority with a test score and GPA lower than hers got in..LOL.

From what I gathered, she went to a very good HS. Her GPA only got her in the top 14% of her graduating class. If thats what she achieved with a 3.59...imagine what the top 10% had.

But no, like a few people have already asserted multiple times in this thread..the only reason she didnt get in was because a black or a latino took her spot.

Someone even went so far as to say that all the black and latino students should have to divulge their academic records.

That sounds like racial profiling... For all we know, a white kid took her spot. Ms. Fischer doesnt know..she's just pissed. In her original complaint against the school, she and another girl filed together. The other girl had a 3.8 GPA and a 1200+ on her SAT. The school denied her because she only came in the Top 10.14% of her graduating class...it sucks, but instead of saying "but..Im WHITE!", she went to a better school.

The best thing you can do when getting rejected by a school is go to a better one. Thats what I did. I was deadset on Penn State in HS (2008). Got rejected and looked to the other schools I applied for. Glad I went to Michigan State instead.

Michigan State is a BIG step down from Penn State. You can't even get a coach to wash your back in the showers!

WARNING! Tasteless Penn State jokes ahead! You have been warned . . .

* Penn State: the only University where you can major in minors!

* Jerry Sandusky walks into an elementary school just as classes are let out for the day, when a teacher approaches him & asks, "so which child is yours?"

Sandusky replies: "I don't care, surprise me."

* You may hate Jerry Sandusky, but at least he drove slowly through school zones.

* On a scale of 1-10, how old is Jerry Sandusky's boyfriend?

* Q: What was Jerry Sandusky's defensive philosophy at Penn State?

A: Get penetration and always cover the Tight End.

* Q: If an older woman chasing a younger guy is called a cougar, what do you call an older guy chasing a young boy?

A A Nittany Lion&#8230;

* Did you know that B.Y.U. was Jerry's first choice before Penn State. He thought it was "Bring 'em Young".

* I hear Sandusky had to stop going to church. The priests kept fighting over who got to hear his confession.

* Sandusky claims he's really young at heart. He says sometimes he feels like a 60 yr old stuck in a 10 yr old's body.

* Jerry Sandusky has attempted suicide by jumping into the sea...

The Coastguard found him bobbing up and down on a small buoy!

* Sandusky is set to remake two Schwarzenegger films into one...

It's going to be called Kindergarten Predator.

* Q. Does a tree falling in a forest make a sound?

A. It makes the same sound Joe Paterno does when he finds out his assistant coach is molesting a 10-year-old.

* Q: How does Penn State separate the men from the boys?

A: They don't, they look the other way.

* A young child sees his mom getting out of the shower. He sees her breasts and asks what they are. The mom says "those are my breasts." the boy asks his mom if he'll get breasts one day and the mom says "no only women get those when they are growing up" The boy then looks at her hairy vagina and asks what that is. His mom tells him "That's a vagina and only women have that after puberty."
Later that evening Jerry Sandusky takes the boy to a weight room to practice wrestling moves and when Sandusky says it is time to hit the showers they undress and the boy sees the adult penis and asks what it is. Sandusky replies "that's a penis." the boy asks "when will I get one like that?" Sandusky replies "in about a half hour when the rest of the staff leaves."

* Penn State announced that it will NOT remove the Joe Paterno statue. Instead they cited that they will rotate the statue 180 degrees so that it will look the other way!

 

[SheHateMe]

LOL you're a mess.

 

[DCal430]

Given how Non-Hispanic whites are doing worst than Southeast Asian in terms of college going and graduation rates, and Southeast Asians seem to "need" affirmative active, I guess than means whites should get Affirmative Action too.

 

[Svnla]

First of all, let make this absolutely clear. A few months ago, I have never heard of Ms. Fisher, I still do not know her or any of her relatives or friends in real life.

This is what I know about her from my research:

1. She was a honor grad from her high school, with better than average SAT score plus plenty of extra curriculum activities.

2. She was also a college grad from an accredited university recently.

3. She filed a lawsuit because she claimed candidates with lower GPAs and SAT scores that got in due to their race, not about her own qualification (if her case was without any merit, why would the US Supreme Court bother to listen to it and did not reject it or sent it back to lower court?)

Those three item above are indisputable facts. Period.

Is she the &#8220;bottom of the barrel&#8221; type or these below?

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2010-01-22-asian-bullying-philadelphia_N.htm?csp=34

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YgnhzW9CDs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7VVtuSsIHE&NR=1&feature=endscreen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=j8y2DMdNpAY&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x33-YFgtytw&feature=related


There are much much more but not enough space and time to list them all. Maybe those that behaved badly need some AA/set aside programs to learn how to control their anger and behave normally, eh? They surely look like they need some help....badly.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, as you can see the indisputable evidences with your own eyes, the &#8220;bottom of the barrel&#8221; type is a very easy choice to pick. They can try to spin and spin but they can't deny the evidences.

Facts are facts. Ms. Fisher is far from "bottom of the barrel". Those from the above links are more likely.

 

[SheHateMe]

So, does she have someone on the inside in Admissions telling her that someone with lower scores and GPA took her spot? She doesn't know. She doesn't even state that in her complaint. She claims that she didn't get in because she didn't qualify for race based considerations..which she CLAIMS led to her not getting in.

UT claimed that even if they took race into consideration for the spot she thinks she was entitled to..she still wouldn't have been admitted.

Also, she graduated at the top 14% of her class. If 1180/1600 and a 3.59 is 14% quality..I wanna see what the other kids (the 10%) at her school had.

She graduated from another University...good for her
She was a good student in HS...good for her.


But the fact remains that she wasn't competitive enough for the University of Texas. Have you seen the average SAT scores and GPAs for their incoming Freshman classes? Hint: Mrs. Fischer doesnt even come close.


The only people trying to spin are those who are trying to blame race for her non-competitiveness.

Black people behaving badly on Youtube definitely proves that her spot was taken by Affirmative Action. :whiste:

 

[Svnla]

Is she the &#8220;bottom of the barrel&#8221; type or these below?

I did NOT say anything about those folks in the YouTube videos/USA Today link as the reason(s) for Ms. Fisher's problem. Expressed or implied. I was asking if Ms. Fisher being labeled as "Bottom Of The Barrel" or them as the true bottom of the barrel. Nice try to spin and put words in my mouth. Pathetic.

(if her case was without any merit, why would the US Supreme Court bother to listen to it and did not reject it or sent it back to lower court?)

Still ZERO dispute on this statement? Hello? Anyone? ***crickets**

Learn to read. No wonder why certain group has a well deserve reputation as unqualified and the reason they have the positions in school and job is AA/set aside programs. That's why they want to maintain the status quo, that's all they have.

Stop ALL AA/set aside programs now. I do not remember MLK's speech of "I have a dream" has anything about one day a person will be judge based on AA and set aside programs.

 

[SheHateMe]

The Supreme Court is looking at her case because she is claiming racial discrimination. Something about her civil rights being violated. Duh.

Learn to read. No wonder why certain group has a well deserve reputation as unqualified and the reason they have the positions in school and job is AA/set aside programs.That's why they want to maintain the status quo, that's all they have.

That was mature. I get it, I'm black so that means I've never worked hard for anything in my life. HA! It also means I will never be qualified for anything I do in life either, I guess. Since, the only reason a black person could ever have a job or go to school is due to set aside programs. You know, its because that all I have.