Thoughts on games with permadeath?

[Denithor]

Actually I enjoyed playing Diablo 3 in hardcore mode FAR more than playing in regular mode. You obviously build and play a character very differently when there's a chance of losing a lot of progress if you mess up. Made it a lot more fun to me personally.

 

[Stg-Flame]

Permadeath is a bad idea. Hey, you made a mistake... time to start the game over again LOL.
Ziggurat has it too... terrible idea for that game. It would have been fun except are constantly starting over again and again. This is like going back to the 90s games that didn't have a save feature.

Some people like to experience a game where a mistake will destroy your run and force you to get better or forever replay the first level again and again. It gives you a feeling of accomplishment when you go through a tough area and don't die. Some games feature RNG with permadeath and the death can easily be attributed to bad RNG (Binding of Isaac) whereas others are based solely off skill (Rogue Legacy).

 

[Rifter]

Some people like to experience a game where a mistake will destroy your run and force you to get better or forever replay the first level again and again. It gives you a feeling of accomplishment when you go through a tough area and don't die. Some games feature RNG with permadeath and the death can easily be attributed to bad RNG (Binding of Isaac) whereas others are based solely off skill (Rogue Legacy).

RNG with permadeath is just plain stupid.

 

[Stg-Flame]

Elaborate

 

[Scooby Doo]

Some people like to experience a game where a mistake will destroy your run and force you to get better or forever replay the first level again and again. It gives you a feeling of accomplishment when you go through a tough area and don't die. Some games feature RNG with permadeath and the death can easily be attributed to bad RNG (Binding of Isaac) whereas others are based solely off skill (Rogue Legacy).

Course Zig. barely had save between missions, no autosave or anything, makes playing it more of a task rather than entertainment. The real world often needs your attention more than it does LOL. Also with constantly starting over, well I never really got past the first couple of levels, because as fun as it was, it got boring fast.

 

[bystander36]

Elaborate

There are games where randomness plays a huge part in the outcome of a battle. Often the term is over used, even when the randomness is pretty tame, but there are games where RNG plays a huge part on success or not. Baldur's Gate, for example, has quite a few fights where the RNG determines victory or not and there really is no way to beat some battles without a little luck or lack of bad luck.

 

[PrincessFrosty]

It's good in the right places in my opinion. However the game has to be fair, it has to give you the right mechanics and reasonable learning time with them before it drops you into harsh situations.

The problem is that I've noticed many perma death type games can be quite heavily RNG based which is often just unfair, take something like The Darkest Dungeon which is a gameplay idea that I love but RNG completely screws that game over.

And when that happens the game just becomes about doing the same thing over and over to get a good roll which is frustrating and boring.

A lot of people praised Demon's Souls for getting this balance right but I found it hilarious that you could complete so much of a level perfectly and then throw a new enemy at you which can deck you with no prior knowledge, sometimes they were enemys you had to come back later for when you were more powerful but with absolutely zero indication that was the case.

I think it's done badly more often than it's done well.

 

[Stg-Flame]

That's one of the aspects I absolutely loved about Demon's Souls. Besides, throwing new enemies at you later in levels has been a method of gaming since the Atari.

 

[smackababy]

Perma death means you play it safe and take no chances. It also means the game difficulty has to be toned down to prevent overly frustrated players.

Clearly, you haven't played many roguelikes. Some of them are completely unforgiving in difficulty and laugh at your feeble attempts.

 

[bystander36]

Clearly, you haven't played many roguelikes. Some of them are completely unforgiving in difficulty and laugh at your feeble attempts.

I have no idea what you mean by roguelikes, but who is to say they would not have been more difficult has they had a safe system?

 

[ImpulsE69]

Roguelikes are basically randomly generated. Stats, # of enemies, powerups, you name it, all randomly generated AS you play. They do not tone them down. You either get really lucky, or you get really crushed. Rarely middle of the road.

 

[Elcs]

I have no idea what you mean by roguelikes, but who is to say they would not have been more difficult has they had a safe system?

Go buy ADOM on Steam. Come back and let us know how much the game difficulty is toned down on default options.

That's if you aren't hopelessly addicted or crying in a corner at the loss of your level 12 High Elven Archer to a random Yellow Jelly.

 

[Stg-Flame]

I have no idea what you mean by roguelikes, but who is to say they would not have been more difficult has they had a safe system?

Given how much you post here on the PC subsection, I find it incredibly hard to believe you don't know what a roguelike is.

 

[bystander36]

Given how much you post here on the PC subsection, I find it incredibly hard to believe you don't know what a roguelike is.

After looking them up, it seems to be mostly an 80's and 90's type of game and I probably had played a few. That was back in the era before games were all purposefully designed around being finished. Except perhaps some indie games, that sort of game play doesn't fly these days.

 

[Stg-Flame]

The term was coined recently though. Those weren't labeled as roguelikes back in the 80s or 90s otherwise I would have heard it before recent years (both parents played games and I grew up in the 80s/90s).

Roguelikes these days describe a certain type of game where it's intentionally difficult, usually has permadeath or a death style where you have to replay the level, and gives very little balance. Binding of Isaac, Super Meat Boy, Rogue Legacy, and Hero Siege are great examples of roguelikes.

 

[bystander36]

The term was coined recently though. Those weren't labeled as roguelikes back in the 80s or 90s otherwise I would have heard it before recent years (both parents played games and I grew up in the 80s/90s).

Roguelikes these days describe a certain type of game where it's intentionally difficult, usually has permadeath or a death style where you have to replay the level, and gives very little balance. Binding of Isaac, Super Meat Boy, Rogue Legacy, and Hero Siege are great examples of roguelikes.

Based on what I can find, the term has been around since the 80's, but I assume it's seen a resurgence recently. Anyway, I don't play a lot of indie games, and I doubt this type of game play would do well outside indie games today. But back in the 80's and 90's, even AAA games could do this and some RPG's I played around then met the criteria to be one.

 

[smackababy]

Based on what I can find, the term has been around since the 80's, but I assume it's seen a resurgence recently. Anyway, I don't play a lot of indie games, and I doubt this type of game play would do well outside indie games today. But back in the 80's and 90's, even AAA games could do this and some RPG's I played around then met the criteria to be one.

I don't think so. There are games sold exclusively on their "not cheap, but really hard" status. And, a few are indie (mostly because the market is like has been more and more casual every year and caters to such) have seen a resurgence. And even games like Darkest Dungeon are getting into it.

They aren't toned down in terms of difficulty. That would defeat the purpose.

 

[bystander36]

I don't think so. There are games sold exclusively on their "not cheap, but really hard" status. And, a few are indie (mostly because the market is like has been more and more casual every year and caters to such) have seen a resurgence. And even games like Darkest Dungeon are getting into it.

They aren't toned down in terms of difficulty. That would defeat the purpose.

Can you name any perma death only, AAA games in existence in the past 10 years? I'd be curious about that.

 

[smackababy]

Can you name any perma death only, AAA games in existence in the past 10 years? I'd be curious about that.

Besides games with a "hardcore mode" like Diablo and such, there haven't been a ton that I can think of, at least as a main or first run through option.

Games selling based on difficulty are a plenty: entire Souls series, Devil May Cry, etc. I would say they have been platformers, but we didn't specify further.

 

[bystander36]

Besides games with a "hardcore mode" like Diablo and such, there haven't been a ton that I can think of, at least as a main or first run through option.

Games selling based on difficulty are a plenty: entire Souls series, Devil May Cry, etc. I would say they have been platformers, but we didn't specify further.

That was my point. I said that for a permadeath only game, the difficulty would have to be easier. I didn't say that difficulty couldn't exist. Indie games can also go outside the lines though. Though my primary point was that if you play permadeath mode, you have to play it safe.

 

[JSt0rm]

Hardcore mode in arpg will get your palms sweating. I would love playing like that...until I die in 2 seconds like what happened? Lol

 

[Raduque]

I don't generally like permadeath mechanics. However, two of my favorite games are permadeath - FTL and Enter the Gungeon.

I'll give pretty much any game a try, but if it frustrates me it goes away. Permadeath is the quickest way to frustrate me, which is why I don't play many roguelikes.

 

[simas]

"permadeath is only a game mode, if you don't like it don't play it"

I am absolutely ok with permadeath AS AN OPTION , I hate 'we are smarter then you and we are elite and you are plebs" trash talk when it is the only option and there is no way to disable it. Game designer , you just took away choices from me, WHY?? and I really dislike apologists who support these decisions "this is the way it was supposed to be played", "if I have had an option to save, my own single player experience would have been ruined" ,etc. really?? how is what you do in single player game impacts in any way what someone else does or in any way adds or detracts from your experience?

also, this is argued to death of steam forums, and generally as a gamer I find permadeath annoying - you are playing a Russian roulette with RNG (random number generator), and one of this days your number will come up (unexpected damage to character due to very unusual combination of conditions, etc). again, give me choices, if I want to try to play Deus Ex on stealth, let me .if I want to do it through action , let me . if I want to talk my way through, let me . don't decide for me.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

also, this is argued to death of steam forums, and generally as a gamer I find permadeath annoying - you are playing a Russian roulette with RNG (random number generator), and one of this days your number will come up (unexpected damage to character due to very unusual combination of conditions, etc). again, give me choices, if I want to try to play Deus Ex on stealth, let me .if I want to do it through action , let me . if I want to talk my way through, let me . don't decide for me.

Plenty of games let you 'choose your own adventure' as it were, like TES games or whatever. Some are designed with a specific playstyle in mind though, and if you don't like that, you don't play that game. Most Roguelikes have a very common thread in that it's *very* heavily RNG based, and when you die you start over, sometimes with a 'carryover' to future characters/attempts/builds, like Rogue Legacy. If that's not your cup o' tea, so be it.

Can you name any perma death only, AAA games in existence in the past 10 years? I'd be curious about that.

Most ARPGs nowadays come with a permadeath mode, which some play exclusively (D2/3, Grim Dawn, Path of Exile) and so for them, those are AAA games with permadeath. It's also been expanding into other genres, like isometric tactical games (newest XCOM releases) and turn-based RPGs (Pillars of Eternity)

While maybe not strictly AAA, there's some incredibly popular steam titles with it, including aforementioned FTL, Darkest Dungeon, Don't Starve, and Binding of Isaac, not to mention a slew of 'me toos' that have come out mimicking their gameplay. This is of course totally ignoring true Rogue-likes (Nethack, TOME, ADOM, Dwarf Fortress).

It's true that what most would coin a 'AAA title', as in more money spent on advertisement than the actual game, aren't generally permadeath only anymore, there's *tons* of it available in very current-gen games. And frankly I've found myself playing less and less AAA titles over the years, due to them being turds for the most part.

 

[simas]

"
Plenty of games let you 'choose your own adventure' as it were, like TES games or whatever. Some are designed with a specific playstyle in mind though, and if you don't like that, you don't play that game. Most Roguelikes have a very common thread in that it's *very* heavily RNG based, and when you die you start over, sometimes with a 'carryover' to future characters/attempts/builds, like Rogue Legacy. If that's not your cup o' tea, so be it.
"

Sorry, is this the "how you play your game impacts my game experience" argument again which I already told is pure BS? 'designed that way', 'purity', etc. if you don't want to use particular function (save, load, magic for your imaginary character, whatever), don't use it in YOUR game. Why this holier than you nonsense of "this is the only way THE GAME" should be played? Don't like save function, don't use it. simple. but please don't dictate others how they should behave or what they should do, stinks of elitism, and not a good sight to behold. respectfully.


As using XCOM as example, game I greatly enjoy, no issues with permadeath as an option (if you want to have it). However, option and not a requirement. I hope you understand the difference.