Thoughts on HDR & OLED

[Kaido]

Spent some time this week checking out the the new 2016 television lineup. Thoughts in a nutshell:

1. HDR is awesome. It walks the line of being TOO vibrant & colorful, but didn't cross it.

2. Not that impressed with the 2016 OLED models. Honestly...I liked last year's sets better, the ones without HDR. The only one I haven't seen is the top-of-the-line G6 series, so I will reserve my opinion for those when I get to check them out in-person.

3. Not all that impressed with the new HDR OLED models. My favorite of the lineup was actually the 75" Sony X940D with HDR, which is a full-array set for $6k...yes HDR, but no OLED. I was really surprised!

For starters, I am curious if HDR would be to be replicated with a video processor, like something from DarbeeVision - assuming you have a good-quality set to start out with. HDR basically looks like when you first see a good-quality screen, like one of the new iMac screens. Or the first time you see an IPS screen after working on a TN monitor. The color is just accurate and good. It looks calibrated. The 75" X940D for six grand was absolutely my top pick for 2016 so far:

https://www.amazon.com/Sony-XBR75X940D-75-Inch-Ultra-Smart/dp/B01A5LU71A

Short of getting eyes-on for the G6 OLED models, this would be the high-end TV I would buy today if I were in the market for one. A lot of televisions suffered from pixelization or else used a softening blur as a smoothing effect in an attempt to improve the picture. I was surprised that curved TV's say 65" & above looked okay. The curve is really noticeable (not in a good way) on smaller curved televisions, but the 65" to 78" sizes looked acceptable.

Based on what I've read online, the 2016 OLED's were supposed to be the cat's meow, especially with HDR, but barring the G6 lineup, my vote goes to full-array HDR. Sony's X940D was the winner. A step down in quality but a huge step down in price is the Sony 850D series, which were also excellent & available in a variety of sizes (although edge-lit...and had that kind of pixelization effect going on slightly, although not as bad as the other TV's that had that). LG also had an excellent 65" HDR for $1800, the 65UH7700.

Also, they were playing the new Star Wars on one of the 70"+ televisions using SmoothMotion/AutoMotion. It made me sick. Absolutely horrible to watch. The Falcon chase scene in the beginning almost made me nauseous, I had to stop watching at that point because it was messing with my head (and sensibilities ) so much. Ten thumbs down for that crap! lol.

 

[JAG87]

There is no way the Sony performed better than the OLEDs in a dark room. Not a shot in hell. As good old Pioneer once said, black is the canvas. There is no canvas to be had with a back light, no matter how many zones your FALD LED has.

Did you see these in a proper environment? Contrary to LED TVs, OLEDs do not put out a lot of light, if you saw these in a normally lit showroom the OLED had a huge disadvantage.

With regards to HDR, I am excited for it as colour accuracy and gamut are at the very top of my requirements, but it's in the same camp as 4K right now until we actually get a good amount of source material. 4K has been around for a few years now and 4K sources are still extremely scarce. I don't have hopes of seeing HDR material any time soon.

 

[Kaido]

There is no way the Sony performed better than the OLEDs in a dark room. Not a shot in hell. As good old Pioneer once said, black is the canvas. There is no canvas to be had with a back light, no matter how many zones your FALD LED has.

Did you see these in a proper environment? Contrary to LED TVs, OLEDs do not put out a lot of light, if you saw these in a normally lit showroom the OLED had a huge disadvantage.

With regards to HDR, I am excited for it as colour accuracy and gamut are at the very top of my requirements, but it's in the same camp as 4K right now until we actually get a good amount of source material. 4K has been around for a few years now and 4K sources are still extremely scarce. I don't have hopes of seeing HDR material any time soon.

I saw multiple units, both in lit & dark environments. The HDR OLED's & HDR Sony 75" were in both. One thing I will say is that I always reserve final judgement until I have my own sources hooked up so I am watching reference material with the proper connections...you never know what settings & sources someone else is running. I am fortunate in that I do a lot of home theater stuff on the side, so I get to play with all kinds of fun new toys :awe: However...I would take the 75" Sony in a heartbeat. I was really, really impressed. tbh I've never seen an LED TV I've loved until this one. I don't like how LED lighting makes the image look, until now!

As far as overall image quality, that's a tough one - the 2015 LG OLED 65" still had the most amazing black levels ever, just really, really incredible black levels - but no HDR. The color representation on the X940D was just awesome. Felt like I was watching a jumbo-sized iMac screen (one the newer models, that is). Also, the Sony looked excellent in the fully-lit demo room as well as the theater demo room. I would pick the Sony in a heartbeat.

I still have yet to see either the 65" or 77" 2016 LG OLED G6 model with HDR, however. I'm sure that's top dog, but my shop hasn't gotten their display units in yet for those. But given that the 77" G6 is $24k, it makes a lot more financial sense to get the $6k Sony (2" smaller), unless you're really after the cream-of-the-crop PQ. But yeah, surprisingly, I wasn't all that blown away by the 2016 HDR OLED screens. Even in the dark. They were good, but the way that Sony processed the picture...I had my nose up against it & it was still good! Haha. Call all around to your local electronics stores & high-end HT stores and see if they have any on display that you can check out.

I was very surprised at what my eyes saw. I'm still running my 60" Mitsubishi DLP RPTV in my living room because I love the filmic picture quality of it & haven't found anything suitable to replace it, short of a 2015 OLED from LG. I've been on the fence about replacing it with a 65" TCL Roku TV for convenience, but man, I don't like LED PQ all that much. Downside is, there's no way I'm spending six grand on a television, so I really shouldn't have exposed myself to it

 

[Kartajan]

I just want 1080p, w/HDR, 70" that looks better than plasma (great visuals in both ideal and horrible lighting conditions) all within a "casual" budget.

OLED minus ABL? LED with some next-gen form of FALD? Whatever it will be, they haven't made mine yet.

 

[JAG87]

My requirements are much more modest. I just want a 55" 4K HDR OLED that I can buy for under 2K. I sit close enough to my TV that 4K makes sense at that size. When that happens, my Kuro is coming off the wall. I'll shed a tear, but the day will come.

 

[desura]

Thing to keep in mind is that cinema has always had lousy black levels with projector technology.

 

[JAG87]

Well, I think there are other things in a cinema to distract you from the lousy black levels. A 100 ft screen, many thousand watts of sound, and the fact that you should be watching a brand new release should be enough.

But at home in a much more modest setting, I want my TV to be nothing more than a sheet of glass in front of what's going on behind it.

 

[Eug]

Yeah, I don't agree with the OLED-or-nothing mantra. I'm not going to spend CAD$30000 on a 77" OLED for better black levels. And for my setup, I don't want anything less than 70-75".

Thing to keep in mind is that cinema has always had lousy black levels with projector technology.

The local IMAX with dual 4K laser 3-DLP projectors has decent black levels.

 

[Kaido]

Yeah, I don't agree with the OLED-or-nothing mantra. I'm not going to spend CAD$30000 on a 77" OLED for better black levels. And for my setup, I don't want anything less than 70-75".

Last year I did, because LG's 65" OLED 4K TV was amazing. This year, with the introduction of HDR, it's widened the playing field (and contrary to what I thought, it does make a BIG difference on the right TV...I was guessing it'd be another gimmick like curved or 3D, but nope!). As JAG87 mentioned, OLED's real power shines in a dark room because then you not only get the great color, but the incredible black levels as well. However, with the 75" X940D, you get great daytime viewing as well. Like I said, I still haven't gotten eyes-on for the G6 lineup yet, but honestly, I'd probably go with the Sony anyway because of the daytime abilities. Obviously I'd still like to run my own content to see what the flaws are (because no set is perfect), but for 2016, that's my TV pick for the year so far. Absolutely gorgeous picture :thumbsup:

 

[Kaido]

My requirements are much more modest. I just want a 55" 4K HDR OLED that I can buy for under 2K. I sit close enough to my TV that 4K makes sense at that size. When that happens, my Kuro is coming off the wall. I'll shed a tear, but the day will come.

Aww, the Kuro

 

[JAG87]

Last year I did, because LG's 65" OLED 4K TV was amazing. This year, with the introduction of HDR, it's widened the playing field (and contrary to what I thought, it does make a BIG difference on the right TV...I was guessing it'd be another gimmick like curved or 3D, but nope!). As JAG87 mentioned, OLED's real power shines in a dark room because then you not only get the great color, but the incredible black levels as well. However, with the 75" X940D, you get great daytime viewing as well. Like I said, I still haven't gotten eyes-on for the G6 lineup yet, but honestly, I'd probably go with the Sony anyway because of the daytime abilities. Obviously I'd still like to run my own content to see what the flaws are (because no set is perfect), but for 2016, that's my TV pick for the year so far. Absolutely gorgeous picture :thumbsup:

You see, I have nothing against your preference for the Sony (and I do agree it is probably the best value this year) but I always wonder why people cherish how well a TV looks in daylight. I live in Canada and I work 9 to 5, so the total amount of daytime hours I spend at home are maybe 3 in the summer, and I am very likely not watching TV during this time, and a grand total of 0 hours in the winter. That averages out to 1.5 hours of daylight per day, not counting gloomy days (which is Canadian de facto standard weather in fall/spring).

I mean I'm sure people have their reasons, it just doesn't seem to have any relevance in my lifestyle.

 

[Kaido]

You see, I have nothing against your preference for the Sony (and I do agree it is probably the best value this year) but I always wonder why people cherish how well a TV looks in daylight. I live in Canada and I work 9 to 5, so the total amount of daytime hours I spend at home are maybe 3 in the summer, and I am very likely not watching TV during this time, and a grand total of 0 hours in the winter. That averages out to 1.5 hours of daylight per day, not counting gloomy days (which is Canadian de facto standard weather in fall/spring).

I mean I'm sure people have their reasons, it just doesn't seem to have any relevance in my lifestyle.

Well that's just it, it depends on your lifestyle. If you're home all day with the kids & have the blinds open, that's one thing. Like, my personal preference is projectors over televisions. Heck, I even have one in my bedroom But those have a whole different set of requirements...ceiling or shelf-mounting, noise & heat, screen surface, light control required, etc. But it's amazing having a 92" picture in my bedroom to watch movies & then just fall asleep. But then again, most people think it's nuts having a projector in the bedroom, so there's that too hehe.

 

[JAG87]

Well that's just it, it depends on your lifestyle. If you're home all day with the kids & have the blinds open, that's one thing.

True but I wouldn't let my kids put 10 hours a day of kids programming usage on a 6K TV. A vizio D or E series will do just fine for that, in fact even that is too expensive.

Like, my personal preference is projectors over televisions. Heck, I even have one in my bedroom But those have a whole different set of requirements...ceiling or shelf-mounting, noise & heat, screen surface, light control required, etc. But it's amazing having a 92" picture in my bedroom to watch movies & then just fall asleep. But then again, most people think it's nuts having a projector in the bedroom, so there's that too hehe.

I am a projector guy too. My theatre (in my very remote future home...) will most definitely have a projector with a screen of at least 130". There is nothing like a really BIG picture and big sound to really enjoy a movie. OLED in the bedroom, my usual TV watching spot.

 

[MaxDepth]

Did you see these in a proper environment? Contrary to LED TVs, OLEDs do not put out a lot of light, if you saw these in a normally lit showroom the OLED had a huge disadvantage.

Yeah that's nice and all but it all comes down to where you are going to see this unit in your home. Unless you have this put into a windowless room, you going to have gradients of external lighting. So while a person might spend over $3K for a TV, that same person will most likely have the "proper environment" to watch at home. For the rest of us schlubs, we have to contend with a not so perfect environment. So we won't be spending $3K, especially if we have to update an attached HTPC's video card and AV receiver that can handle HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0a.

 

[bigboxes]

So we won't be spending $3K, especially if we have to update an attached HTPC's video card and AV receiver that can handle HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0a.

When I put together my HTPC this January, I bought the MSI GTX 950 Gaming 2G with just that in mind. HDMI 2.0 and built in HEVC decoder. I never game on the HTPC so it just needs to handle video playback. Of course, I am in no hurry on moving on to 4K. My top of the line Panny plasma is only three years old. Unless it dies prematurely, I can wait until 4K OLED matures and comes down in price.

 

[desura]

On eBay I've seen recently that there are 55 inch LG OLED tv's for about $1k.

Anyways, I feel that with screen burn-in, I feel more comfortable watching casual stuff on LCD screens. They seem more durable. A little more uncomfortable using OLED or projector for something I'm casually watching.

 

[bigboxes]

On eBay I've seen recently that there are 55 inch LG OLED tv's for about $1k.

Anyways, I feel that with screen burn-in, I feel more comfortable watching casual stuff on LCD screens. They seem more durable. A little more uncomfortable using OLED or projector for something I'm casually watching.

LCD TV sucks. And I've got two of them. But they're nice and thin.

I too am waiting for the price to come down and the tech to mature. All that consumers seem to care about is big and cheap.

 

[Kaido]

LCD TV sucks. And I've got two of them. But they're nice and thin.

I too am waiting for the price to come down and the tech to mature. All that consumers seem to care about is big and cheap.

fwiw the 75" X940d is the first LED TV I've ever seen that I liked.

With that said, I went home & ordered a replacement bulb for $48 for my Mitsubishi DLP

 

[bigboxes]

fwiw the 75" X940d is the first LED TV I've ever seen that I liked.

With that said, I went home & ordered a replacement bulb for $48 for my Mitsubishi DLP

Wow. You still have a DLP. Walk like a dinosaur! Great picture.

My first TV was a 20" Mitsubishi. It was as good as a Trinitron, but cost $50 less. That was a great tv.

I had a buddy who had a 52" Mits DLP. Bulbs kept burning out and that thing overheated. Yes, he did the mods to keep it going.

 

[Kaido]

Wow. You still have a DLP. Walk like a dinosaur! Great picture.

My first TV was a 20" Mitsubishi. It was as good as a Trinitron, but cost $50 less. That was a great tv.

I had a buddy who had a 52" Mits DLP. Bulbs kept burning out and that thing overheated. Yes, he did the mods to keep it going.

Yeah, it's the final generation of them before they killed them off - it's a fairly slim DLP that curves up in the back. I have it in a corner, so it actually just looks like a really big flat-screen. The picture quality is absolutely killer for live-action film. For cartoons, LCD panels still look better because of the brightness, but up until the 75" Sony X940d, I had never met a single LED panel that I truly liked.

I've been wanting to replace it with a 2015 55" OLED (they are almost to $999!), but then I keep seeing the 65" TCL 4K Roku for the same price & think - bigger, Roku built-in, easier for the family since the interface is native, etc. But ultimately, I placed an order last week for a replacement DLP bulb (hey, $48, why not?) & a Logitech simple Harmony remote kit (the one with the wifi blaster & iPhone app), so meh. Hopefully that will keep my Mitsu going for a few more years! :awe:

 

[poofyhairguy]

You see, I have nothing against your preference for the Sony (and I do agree it is probably the best value this year) but I always wonder why people cherish how well a TV looks in daylight.

Three words describe it:

Open Concept Houses

Those three words combined with 4K killed plasma.

I agree with the sentiment expressed though in the fact that the LG OLEDs do not have the best image processing. In fact it's not even close to the best, never has been.

That is why my big hope is OLED survives long enough to get some more competition in the market. Panasonic quality and image processing plus OLED (for example) would blow everything else away.

Until we get there you have to chose what is best for you. If you are in an open concept house and you do a lot of daytime watching an OLED might be a waste. Plus quite frankly I have always shied away from recommending OLEDs or plasmas to people with kids who might leave the Disney DVD menu or a paused game on for so long it's burned in.

I only run to recommend OLEDs on here because I feel like if someone takes the time to ask a forum they maybe care what is actually the best technology. With my family or friends (who don't want the best) it's just "buy a Vizio. Period."

 

[bigboxes]

Three words describe it:

Open Concept Houses

Those three words combined with 4K killed plasma.

I agree with the sentiment expressed though in the fact that the LG OLEDs do not have the best image processing. In fact it's not even close to the best, never has been.

That is why my big hope is OLED survives long enough to get some more competition in the market. Panasonic quality and image processing plus OLED (for example) would blow everything else away.

Until we get there you have to chose what is best for you. If you are in an open concept house and you do a lot of daytime watching an OLED might be a waste. Plus quite frankly I have always shied away from recommending OLEDs or plasmas to people with kids who might leave the Disney DVD menu or a paused game on for so long it's burned in.

I only run to recommend OLEDs on here because I feel like if someone takes the time to ask a forum they maybe care what is actually the best technology. With my family or friends (who don't want the best) it's just "buy a Vizio. Period."

Went with my Panny after reading all the reviews. Now, it isn't that great for reading text from my HTPC when Kodi is exited, but computer usage is not its primary purpose. Movies and sports is why I got it. I'm going to be really hacked if Panasonic (and others) don't pick up OLED and develop them. I would have bought a Kuro if they wouldn't have stopped making them. It's all about the processing.

As far as Vizio goes, I think the same way. When you get tired of trying to explain why there's more than big, thin and cheap you just let out a sigh and say, "Vizio."

 

[Kaido]

Engadget article on the upcoming Sony Z-series televisions:

https://www.engadget.com/2016/07/20/sony-z-series/

They use a new backlight algorithm feature to rival the quality of OLED TVs.

...

the big deal with this new flagship line of 4K HDR Ultra HD TVs is its Backlight Master Drive technology. This tech, which we saw in prototype form at CES, aims to bring a brightness and contrast that'll rival the richness of OLED sets.

Sizes & pricing:

65" for $7,000
75" for $10,000
100" TBA

Compared to OLED :

We were also treated to a side-by-side comparison of a Z-series TV when compared to an LG OLED TV plus a Samsung LCD, both of which are 4K HDR sets. The same video seen on the Samsung set looked pretty washed out -- the blacks were not nearly as deep and dark. The OLED TV, on the other hand, handled blacks as well as the Z-series, but it couldn't handle subtle colors. For example, a shot of a light fixture looked a little blown out on the OLED screen, while the same scene on the Z-series appeared more true-to-life. Similarly, a close-up of cooked rice looked rather monotone on the OLED screen, while the Z-series showed the same scene in much richer detail, so much so that each rice grain seemed to pop from the display.

...

Despite the quality of the Sony Z-series, I'm not sure if that extra bit of color realism is worth the added $3,000 to $4,000 premium. It certainly looks a lot better than comparable LCDs, but the difference between this and a cheaper OLED is not quite enough in my opinion.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Awesome! Sounds a lot better than zone-based technology!

 

[BarkingGhostar]

Wow. You still have a DLP. Walk like a dinosaur! Great picture.

My first TV was a 20" Mitsubishi. It was as good as a Trinitron, but cost $50 less. That was a great tv.

I had a buddy who had a 52" Mits DLP. Bulbs kept burning out and that thing overheated. Yes, he did the mods to keep it going.

Fuck, that means I predate the dino's by having two CRT projectors in my home.