Thoughts on modern cases and size

[antef]

After reading Dustin's re-review of the SilverStone PS07 it got me thinking some about what size case most people need nowadays and why. I consider a "typical" enthusiast system nowadays to really just be a large video card, SSD and HDD, and a decent CPU and memory. Based on this I can't imagine why ATX is so popular when it's so unnecessarily big. Mini-ITX however is usually too small if you want to use an enthusiast GPU, not to mention expensive.

This makes microATX the sweet spot. Among the microATX options, most are too close to normal ATX size, lack 120mm fans, or some other drawback. Right now the ONLY options I see that are compact and hit all the feature checkboxes are the SilverStone PS07 and Rosewill Line-M mentioned in Dustin's article. Given that it seems the bulk of the market has needs that would be perfectly suited by these cases, I am wondering why similar options are not more plentiful.

So I ask you: if you still use ATX, why? Water-cooling? Dual GPUs? Several hard drives? Are most people in the DIY market nowadays using one or more of these things?

And regarding solid mATX choices, are the pickings really as slim as they seem? Criteria: 1) supports full size video cards, 2) front and rear 120mm fans, 3) SMALL - if it's practically ATX size then there's really no point.

 

[Agent11]

Gives room for big hands to work on things, storage, room for expansion, room for aftermarket cooling. The atx mid tower is actually a pretty compact form factor for the amount of expansion it supports.

 

[BrightCandle]

I use an EATX case because of the watercooling but even before that I have never really bought below an ATX board. The reason is that usually micro ATX boards have to cut back on VRMs and other essentials for overclocking and I never want my motherboard to be the reason why the overclock is limited, I want to ensure its the CPU. Asus did make some ROG motherboards that were mATX and I think that is important for the adoption of it with enthusiasts.

 

[Cerb]

So I ask you: if you still use ATX, why?

I'm afraid cutting off the bottom of my mobo would be detrimental . My next PC will likely be built in a PS07 or TJ08-E (it'll be coin flip when it comes time to do it).

Water-cooling?

Quite doable with MicroATX and MiniITX.

Dual GPUs?

Doable in MicroATX.

The TJ08-E, the more expensive big brother to the PS07, handles both of the above, with some planning (but no modding required). That is, water cooling and 2 GPUs can be done in that very case, though the TJ08-E is still more popular, on account of the 180mm/140mm front fan.

Several hard drives?

That can be a problem, especially trying to tame the whine, but more than that, cases that can quietly handle more drives tend to be about the size of mid-towers, so why not just use a midtower? Keeping many HDDs tolerable, even "NAS" low-vibration HDDs, often just takes mass, which is something cases like the Define R4 are not lacking in.

 

[Zap]

usually micro ATX boards have to cut back on VRMs and other essentials for overclocking

That isn't the fault of micro ATX as a form factor. That is the fault of thinking that a $100 mATX motherboard overclocks as well as a $200 ATX motherboard.

Think about it. ATX and mATX are the exact same size around the CPU area. mATX is only smaller by losing the bottom three expansion slots. There is absolutely no reason why a mATX motherboard can't pack as much VRM goodies as an ATX motherboard.

AFAIK a mATX board will be equivalent in overclocking as an ATX board of same brand and price.

 

[smackababy]

I think modern case design is pretty poor. Too small and too spaceshippy. There are a few exceptions CaseLabs, Corsair, MM, etc; but overall, I don't want a 500mm fan on the front of it with 100 different colored LEDs. I don't even want a case window. >_>

 

[Maximilian]

I like big and heavy. Hence why i got the FT02. Small cases are fine but big is cheaper and gives you more options. ITX motherboards dont even seem to save that much power over their ATX counterparts, couple of watts at most is what i see with LGA 1150.

Plus my PC is much harder to steal compared to a little ITX box... so there's that to think about

 

[monkeydelmagico]

I stopped using ATX about 6 years ago. If I was going to SLI or xfire I'd go back to ATX.

The pickings are kinda slim for mATX cases. I was going to get the PS07 mentioned above but ended up with a cooler master n200 for less than half the price AR. 120mm fans. Room for long cards. Fits a radiator if your into that. I'm digging it so far.

 

[aigomorla]

That isn't the fault of micro ATX as a form factor. That is the fault of thinking that a $100 mATX motherboard overclocks as well as a $200 ATX motherboard.

Think about it. ATX and mATX are the exact same size around the CPU area. mATX is only smaller by losing the bottom three expansion slots. There is absolutely no reason why a mATX motherboard can't pack as much VRM goodies as an ATX motherboard.

AFAIK a mATX board will be equivalent in overclocking as an ATX board of same brand and price.

actually zap isnt it more then that...
the boards are also more shallow in the back no?

Personally i perfer either EATX (go big or go home) or mITX (<3 mini's)

I dont like mATX at all... the cases arent even considered what i call small for mATX. LianLi A55 ATX case vs a mATX case.

Oh and the ASUS Z77 ITX has ATX mosfets on a ITX board.
So i think ITX is catching up.

 

[Sheep221]

I don't know why some people think that mATX is substantially smaller than full ATX, I mean, mATX mobos and cases are mostly bought because they are cheaper and also offer less features and expansion headroom. But the mATX case compared to full ATX one is only smaller in height by one 5.25" bay nothing else, I own full ATX rig which I needed due to my use of expansion cards in PCI/PCIe slots. You lose quite bit going mATX but the difference in that physical size is so small. But I do agree that the mATX is much more versatile today than it once was, SATA ports give cheap mATX boards ability to operate 4-8 drives and heavy use of processor graphics and replacements of LPT/serial and PS/2 and gaming ports make them also equipped with dozens of USB ports so you don't need expansion cards and also a LAN card and 7.1 sound controller.

 

[Topweasel]

actually zap isnt it more then that...
the boards are also more shallow in the back no?

Personally i perfer either EATX (go big or go home) or mITX (<3 mini's)

I dont like mATX at all... the cases arent even considered what i call small for mATX. LianLi A55 ATX case vs a mATX case.

Oh and the ASUS Z77 ITX has ATX mosfets on a ITX board.
So i think ITX is catching up.

Isn't that really the case. mATX just doesn't have the pizzaz in the enthusiasts market. Really the only people using mATX are OEMs. Because who wants a tower case that is only 10-20% smaller than a mid tower and therefore harder to work on. If you want a smaller computer that is truly smaller then ITX is the solution.

If you want a computer that can fit 3 HDD's an optical or two and a decent sized video card. Why not get one that can support 8 drives, 2 large video cards or more and give yourself some room to grow and know your not knocking your knuckles every time you make the change? Opposite end if you are making task specific machine even if it's gaming, wouldn't you be better tasked minimizing the footprint as small as possible to include only the features you want or need ala ITX?

Then there are problems with the case manufacturers. Silverstone is about the only case manufacturer doing anything interesting with mATX cases to really take advantage of it's lower space requirements. Even then most companies are making ridiculously small mid towers that support full ATX like the CM HAF 912. Or you have Bitfenix building a pretty interesting mATX case in the Podigy. But they made it an over-sized ITX case instead. One of the few times that a case manufacturer came out with something that would make mATX an interesting solution but went ITX because that where the market for "smaller" computers is.

 

[piasabird]

I think the biggest problem with MITX is the size and space the power supply takes up and the space that a fan takes up. Even when they make a smaller power supply for a Mini-ITX case it is cheap and underpowered and of a low quality. It is not just the case but other key improvement that could make designing a Mini-ITX system smaller and easier to build. For instance if they cut out the case mounting board and put a Mini PCIE MSATA slot on the back of the motherboard, you could mount a SSD under the Motherboard. This is what they do for Laptops. Small well thought out design changes could make a big difference.

When it comes to gaming you just have to accept that a system will just be larger. There might be a better design for a motherboard for gaming. Since the case has to be as long as the video card you could redisgn the motherboard to be longer and narrower and sit side by side with the video card and connect it with a ribbon connector.

 

[antef]

I don't know why some people think that mATX is substantially smaller than full ATX, I mean, mATX mobos and cases are mostly bought because they are cheaper and also offer less features and expansion headroom. But the mATX case compared to full ATX one is only smaller in height by one 5.25" bay nothing else, I own full ATX rig which I needed due to my use of expansion cards in PCI/PCIe slots. You lose quite bit going mATX but the difference in that physical size is so small. But I do agree that the mATX is much more versatile today than it once was, SATA ports give cheap mATX boards ability to operate 4-8 drives and heavy use of processor graphics and replacements of LPT/serial and PS/2 and gaming ports make them also equipped with dozens of USB ports so you don't need expansion cards and also a LAN card and 7.1 sound controller.

My original post is stating that exact problem - there aren't enough SMALL mATX cases. There should be more, and the size difference compared to ATX is substantial.

typical ATX: 19.5" D x 7.5" W x 17.5" H
Rosewill Line-M: 15.7" D x 7.3" W x 14.3" H

Almost 4" shallower and over 3" shorter, also almost half the weight. I'd call that substantial. Anything bigger is a waste unless you need 3+ HDDs or some ridiculous cooling setup.

 

[antef]

Isn't that really the case. mATX just doesn't have the pizzaz in the enthusiasts market. Really the only people using mATX are OEMs. Because who wants a tower case that is only 10-20% smaller than a mid tower and therefore harder to work on. If you want a smaller computer that is truly smaller then ITX is the solution.

If you want a computer that can fit 3 HDD's an optical or two and a decent sized video card. Why not get one that can support 8 drives, 2 large video cards or more and give yourself some room to grow and know your not knocking your knuckles every time you make the change? Opposite end if you are making task specific machine even if it's gaming, wouldn't you be better tasked minimizing the footprint as small as possible to include only the features you want or need ala ITX?

OEMs are far from the only ones interested in mATX. It's the perfect size. Why would you go miniITX when it's crazy hard to fit a full-size PSU or video card into?

Why is it that wanting 3 HDDs and an optical drive automatically leads to getting a case that can support 8 drives? Why would you do this if you know you're NEVER going to do that? Hard drives come up to 3 TB nowadays. I know for certain I will not need more than one SSD, one HDD, and one video card. So why bother with any massive case. I don't understand this thinking of buying for some mythical future scenario where you might suddenly need an insane supercomputer in your same case.

 

[antef]

I like big and heavy. Hence why i got the FT02. Small cases are fine but big is cheaper and gives you more options. ITX motherboards dont even seem to save that much power over their ATX counterparts, couple of watts at most is what i see with LGA 1150.

Plus my PC is much harder to steal compared to a little ITX box... so there's that to think about

The "more options" you speak of is what I was investigating with this post. What are these options people need that a compact mATX case can't provide? I am betting an SSD, HDD, and video card/mobo/CPU, that's it, is enough for 3/4 of gamers/builders out there. Even if you want SLI and a few drives, that can still be done. Are people really still cramming 3+ HDDs and tons of expansion cards into modern PCs? I just don't get it.

 

[Maximilian]

The "more options" you speak of is what I was investigating with this post. What are these options people need that a compact mATX case can't provide? I am betting an SSD, HDD, and video card/mobo/CPU, that's it, is enough for 3/4 of gamers/builders out there. Even if you want SLI and a few drives, that can still be done. Are people really still cramming 3+ HDDs and tons of expansion cards into modern PCs? I just don't get it.

Cheaper components/less hassle. I never use half the SATA ports or expansion slots.

ATX mobos are usually cheaper than their ITX counterparts, I don't even look at mATX that much because its still pretty big anyways.

Fitting a big cooler is rarely a problem on ATX, checking if a graphics card will fit is a non issue, ATX cases are usually pretty easy to work on if I want to upgrade something later. Cable management is easier too.

 

[Topweasel]

OEMs are far from the only ones interested in mATX. It's the perfect size. Why would you go miniITX when it's crazy hard to fit a full-size PSU or video card into?

Why is it that wanting 3 HDDs and an optical drive automatically leads to getting a case that can support 8 drives? Why would you do this if you know you're NEVER going to do that? Hard drives come up to 3 TB nowadays. I know for certain I will not need more than one SSD, one HDD, and one video card. So why bother with any massive case. I don't understand this thinking of buying for some mythical future scenario where you might suddenly need an insane supercomputer in your same case.

Only ones purchasing and building cases on them on a regular basis. Just about any non workstation consumer computer is mATX. But consumers are more a lot more likely to go mid tower ATX before looking to ATX.

If you build a computer to last you 5 years and they figure HDD space requirements double every 3. Then you could need 2-3 times the amount of space you have now. So why buy a computer case with limited upgrade options. It's easy to see this is the case just looking at case options in mATX. The lack of interest in developing retail cases in the mATX form factor is less than ITX and that is saying a lot. I am just putting my spin on why that is.

 

[antef]

Cheaper components/less hassle. I never use half the SATA ports or expansion slots.

ATX mobos are usually cheaper than their ITX counterparts, I don't even look at mATX that much because its still pretty big anyways.

Fitting a big cooler is rarely a problem on ATX, checking if a graphics card will fit is a non issue, ATX cases are usually pretty easy to work on if I want to upgrade something later. Cable management is easier too.

ATX boards are not really cheaper than mATX. Both can be had for < $100/$100-$120/$120+, etc.

mATX is a good bit smaller as I pointed out earlier with the dimensions. It only makes sense to shave off those bottom 2 or 3 PCI slots when you'll never use them. Large coolers and full-size video cards are also fine in cases like the Line-M and PS07.

If you build a computer to last you 5 years and they figure HDD space requirements double every 3. Then you could need 2-3 times the amount of space you have now. So why buy a computer case with limited upgrade options. It's easy to see this is the case just looking at case options in mATX. The lack of interest in developing retail cases in the mATX form factor is less than ITX and that is saying a lot. I am just putting my spin on why that is.

I don't understand your argument about storage needs increasing. Capacities increase as needs increase. If you need more space why keep adding drives that suck more power instead of just buying and using a single larger drive for probably the same cost? With drives up to 3 TB nowadays I don't know who would need several of them except for the most extreme data/media archivist.

mATX does not really limit practical upgrade options. It is the size that is most practical for most builds. The arguments I'm hearing for ATX keep centering around mythical future scenarios that will probably never come to pass, as opposed to practical needs of today that mATX does not fulfill.

You are right in pointing out the dearth of mATX options - that is exactly what I'm confused by given the lack of solid reasons I've heard why it isn't the ideal size. It is similar to people talking about 20-30 Mbps mobile data speeds on LTE. They talk about how much they need it/want it but in reality it's not doing them any good.

 

[amitkher]

1. Read the recent article about the price we pay for mobility - desktop vs laptop( http://www.anandtech.com/show/7287/analyzing-the-price-of-mobility-desktops-vs-laptops) . The price turned out to be negligible for non gaming, and tolerable for gaming if you are really concerned with space saving. Now we are talking about people who chose desktop in spite of that. All the space conscious people sold their desktops for laptops, for the additional advantage of mobility. You can't carry and use even your mini ITX build to the mall - because of constant power requirement.

2. You are right that one can save 15-20% in 2 of the dimensions and 50% in weight by micro ATX. But where are the homes that seriously benefit from that? This website seems to be most popular in US, UK etc, and to my eyes even custom rig building market is most vibrant there. Home sizes there don't bat an eyelid for even the difference between mini ITX vs EATX. And all the Japanese already went with laptops.

3. See phones - one pays 10s of dollars premium for a mm thinner phone. Because it needs to fit a pocket - which could be very space constrained. Similar premium is for 5 mm in laptops as it needs to fit a bag - less space constrained than a pocket but needs to be carried around. Washing machine? Much less of a premium. I guess similar is the case in desktop cases.

 

[Charlie98]

My original desktop build was in a ATX mid-tower... a HAF922. What a boat anchor. Along with all that real estate is all those nooks and crannies that allow dust into the system (a problem, at least, in my house) and all that unnecessary wasted space with a 'standard' system (i.e: 1 GPU, CD drive, couple of HDD/SDD.)

I got the smallest quality mATX case I could find for my HTPC... a Fractal Define Mini; dimensionally it was a prefect fit where it needed to go and, while 'small' by ATX case standards, has plenty of room for components and plenty of room to work and route cables. I realized after that build that all that ATX case room is, largely, unnecessary, even with multiple GPUs and drives. The Mini has room for 6 drives, 2 optical slots, 2GPUs, and 6 fan slots... waaaaay more than I need and probably suffice for about 90% of the standard builds today. Add to that large capacity SSDs that could easily eliminate the need for more than 1 or 2 HDD bays, and the trend toward no optical drives and you could conceivably shrink a case like the Mini even further, while still providing room for work and decent airflow.

Following that logic, I dumped the HAF922 and got another Define Mini for my desktop build as well. Our honeymoon continues...

 

[Nec_V20]

Getting back to reality here folks the size and style of the chassis should be dictated by the role the computer is supposed to fulfil. This being the case (pardon the pun) all recommendations with regard to which is ideal are moot.

My personal choice for my NAS was a CoolerMaster HAF XM. The reason for this is that I can get a lot of airflow and the case is to all intents and purposes silent due to the four 200mm fans which I installed into it. I also have another two 120mm Noctua fans installed internally which draw heat away from the hard drives (there is also a 200mm fan in the front of the chassis to draw air in).

I chose an AMD A8-5600k and an mATX board and to cool the CPU I got a Corsair H60 and I replaced the fan included with a Noctua NF-F12.

For my new i7-4770k I chose the CoolerMaster HAF XB - which I had to modify somewhat - because I liked the square footprint and the way it is arranged internally.

However after 30 years of building computer systems the one thing I am royally sick of is cases which demand a blood sacrifice on my part to put together.

 

[DaveSimmons]

For the gaming system I built last year I thought seriously about a mini-ITX shoebox case since it would fit the parts I needed, but ended up with an Antec P280 that's at least 5 times the size.

Why?

Heat and noise. It's much easier to keep parts cool and quiet (with air cooling) in a big case with big, slow fans. If the big case fans can move enough air then the smaller, whinier fans on your video card, motherboard, CPU can run slow and quiet. Airflow is also easier to get right when the parts aren't packed together like sardines.

Ease of assembly. No scratches or frustration from trying to fit in parts with no extra room.

Parts selection. Any motherboard, PSU, video card, DVD burner I want, no "PSU must be less than x.y inches" or only allowing a slimline laptop DVD drive.

Price. Not being limited to 2 DVD drives or 5 motherboard or 3 graphics cards can mean getting them cheaper too.

Flexibility. I currently have a single GPU, 2 x SSD and 1 HDD but if I wanted to I could go SLI / CrossFire, or add more HDDs to use my gaming PC as a storage server.

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

Silverstone TJ08-E. Amazing how much crap fits into that tiny little case.

3570K @ 4.5GHz w/Antec K920
32GB RAM
SSD + HDD + ODD + 3.5" Media Reader
BFG ES-800 (non-modular!)
Reference 7970
Modded X-Fi XtremeMusic
Intel PCI-E NIC

 

[TheThirdMan]

ATX gives maximum flexibility for swapping out parts and putting together a system form older parts. Micro ATX tends to be limited to 2 memory slots on most boards which limit the size of memory I can put in from the older parts I have.

 

[ss284]

I just switched to a corsair 350D (from a ATX fractal midi) and it was super easy to build in. The case itself isn't that small, but it really satisfies some important enthusiast requirements that smaller matx cases can't, namely dual GPU (with an open slot inbetween) and watercooling.

Also, almost every mATX board I've seen over 80 bucks has 4 ram slots.