Thoughts on 'paid leave'?

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Do you actually have kids or otherwise know what it's like to raise them? Sure doesn't sound like it.

Absolutely not. I knew very early on that I hated kids. All kids.

Working from home is not an acceptable substitute for parental leave.

And yet hundreds of millions did it before the 70s or 80s. Moms in the 50s and 60s regularly worked from home in one way or another. Some had sewing businesses, others did accounting, took care of neighbors' kids or whatever else they could do to make money before the big push to office work. None of them expected an employer to pay them not to go to the office.

Frankly, you're twisting yourself in knots to avoid acknowledging that parental leave is a good idea.

No, I'm outright saying it's a bad idea. You want to stay home and burp the baby that you had by choice, knock yourself out, but don't expect a company to pay you to do so.

 

[MrSquished]

His complaint follows the same logic as those that think having access to abortions means women will use abortion as a form of birth control, that is, it’s not logical at all and denies reality.

This. Anecdotally I can't remember dating a girl that wasn't on birth control, or asked me to wear a condom, or lately now that I'm in my forties and so are they, asking me to just pull out.

 

[woolfe9998]

We don't have an over-population problem.

 

[MrSquished]

I worked construction nearly all my life. If you aren't on the job...you don't get paid. No paid vacation, no paid sick days, no paid holidays, no paid family leave...and if you're gone more than a day or two...the company might just call the union hall and get a replacement for you.
I never had a problem with that.

This was your experience so it must be the right way and good for society? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

We don't have an over-population problem.

We absolutely do. It's almost to the point of critical. The birth rate MUST be lowered dramatically.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

This was your experience so it must be the right way and good for society? Is that what you are saying?

He's saying he was being responsible. He knew he had to work to have money to pay family expenses. He wasn't expecting an employer to pay him to do nothing while still having to pay somebody else to do his job.

 

[MrSquished]

He's saying he was being responsible. He knew he had to work to have money to pay family expenses. He wasn't expecting an employer to pay him to do nothing while still having to pay somebody else to do his job.

So basically he was saying what I said than. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[MrSquished]

Absolutely not. I knew very early on that I hated kids. All kids.



And yet hundreds of millions did it before the 70s or 80s. Moms in the 50s and 60s regularly worked from home in one way or another. Some had sewing businesses, others did accounting, took care of neighbors' kids or whatever else they could do to make money before the big push to office work. None of them expected an employer to pay them not to go to the office.



No, I'm outright saying it's a bad idea. You want to stay home and burp the baby that you had by choice, knock yourself out, but don't expect a company to pay you to do so.

Do any of the first world countries with parental paid leave have overpopulation problems? Pray, do tell.

 

[woolfe9998]

We absolutely do. It's almost to the point of critical. The birth rate MUST be lowered dramatically.

Population growth over the past 10 years is at its lowest since the great depression. We currently have insufficient population growth to sustain the population without immigration. So no, we don't.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/america-growth-slowing/2021/05/09/3a4b81ba-b032-11eb-ab4c-986555a1c511_story.html

 

[BoomerD]

This was your experience so it must be the right way and good for society? Is that what you are saying?

Good for society...or good for freeloaders? Why should an amployer have to pay an employee for NOT working?

 

[MrSquished]

Good for society...or good for freeloaders? Why should an amployer have to pay an employee for NOT working?

Most other major first world developed countries have this policy, and their societies are highly functional, there has been no breakdown of the employers, nor of the employer-employee relationship. You sound like Joe Rogan talking about parental leave - 'This is not Germany, in America we work' - saying the same thing as you, it's freeloading. Why don't you go to Germany and see how their society functions and stop being as ignorant as Joe Rogan.

Big business should be viewed as having responsibilities to society and the environment, a symbiotic relationship with their employees and the environment around them, not just solely profit making machines. The latter is your view and it is nothing but trouble.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

We currently have insufficient population growth to sustain the population without immigration. So no, we don't.

Yeah, immigration worked out so well for the First Nations peoples that it almost wiped them out.

Now the current inhabitants complain about immigration, without which the US wouldn't exist.

 

[Commodus]

Absolutely not. I knew very early on that I hated kids. All kids.

Wait, let me get this straight: the person who hates all kids is presuming to understand parental leave better than actual parents, or even just people who want and sympathize with kids?

Please do us a favor: stop talking about a subject you not only know nothing about, but actively hate. I'm not saying this in the usual "I disagree so I'm going to be hyperbolic" way you often see on forums; this is a completely serious concern that I would gladly share to your face, because it's completely true and important for you to understand. You're not going to understand parental leave if you can't tolerate kids in general, let alone raise them.

And yet hundreds of millions did it before the 70s or 80s. Moms in the 50s and 60s regularly worked from home in one way or another. Some had sewing businesses, others did accounting, took care of neighbors' kids or whatever else they could do to make money before the big push to office work. None of them expected an employer to pay them not to go to the office.

Er... for a start, moms in those decades who worked from home were doing so as parents who either solely raised their kids or treated any other jobs as a side gig. Most working women did so away from home in roles like teaching or secretaries, and US labor participation from was under 40 percent even in the young adult group.

And crucially, relative incomes and costs of living made it far, far easier for one spouse to stay at home than it is now. A person (usually a man given wage gaps) could get a middling office job that paid for everything; that's just not an option today, even the stay-at-home spouse has a part-time hustle. Now, maybe if you "eat the rich" by taxing them far more heavily and forcing them to close income equality gaps you'd have a point, but that's unlikely to happen soon. Therefore, parental leave.

No, I'm outright saying it's a bad idea. You want to stay home and burp the baby that you had by choice, knock yourself out, but don't expect a company to pay you to do so.

You do realize that your approach would create a horrible situation, right? That people would have to choose between working and having a child, or trying both and hurting the child's future in the process?

Again, please don't presume to lecture parents on what they should do when you don't even have the slightest knowledge of or interest in parenting.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

I'm talking as someone who's had to do somebody else's job because they thought staying home to burp somebody was more important than earning a living to pay their expenses.

 

[MrSquished]

Yeah, immigration worked out so well for the First Nations peoples that it almost wiped them out.

Now the current inhabitants complain about immigration, without which the US wouldn't exist.

Do any first world countries with paid parental leave have overpopulation problems? Please list them. You'd have to basically consider Europe. So where is the overpopulation there due to excessive birth rates spurred by paid parental leave?

 

[MrSquished]

Wait, let me get this straight: the person who hates all kids is presuming to understand parental leave better than actual parents, or even just people who want and sympathize with kids?

Please do us a favor: stop talking about a subject you not only know nothing about, but actively hate. I'm not saying this in the usual "I disagree so I'm going to be hyperbolic" way you often see on forums; this is a completely serious concern that I would gladly share to your face, because it's completely true and important for you to understand. You're not going to understand parental leave if you can't tolerate kids in general, let alone raise them.





Er... for a start, moms in those decades who worked from home were doing so as parents who either solely raised their kids or treated any other jobs as a side gig. Most working women did so away from home in roles like teaching or secretaries, and US labor participation from was under 40 percent even in the young adult group.

And crucially, relative incomes and costs of living made it far, far easier for one spouse to stay at home than it is now. A person (usually a man given wage gaps) could get a middling office job that paid for everything; that's just not an option today, even the stay-at-home spouse has a part-time hustle. Now, maybe if you "eat the rich" by taxing them far more heavily and forcing them to close income equality gaps you'd have a point, but that's unlikely to happen soon. Therefore, parental leave.




You do realize that your approach would create a horrible situation, right? That people would have to choose between working and having a child, or trying both and hurting the child's future in the process?

Again, please don't presume to lecture parents on what they should do when you don't even have the slightest knowledge of or interest in parenting.

I don't have kids and knew I didn't want them at all since I was in my early twenties, and I'm 46 now, and I know that paid parental leave is a great idea for society. Just trying to stick up for those of us that are childless but still able to support good policy.

 

[fskimospy]

Paid leave's demise tough on backers in Manchin's home state

Supporters of a proposal to provide paid family medical leave are dealing with another disappointment in Sen. Joe Manchin’s home state of West Virginia.

apnews.com

I might go along with it for the first child. Maybe a shorter term for the second. Beyond that, none.

We have too many people. We don't need to pay (or compensate) people to have more. And yes, the same for the various tax credits. First child only. Reduced for the second. None for more than that.

Paid Family leave for adopted kids? No. Maybe for infants, definitely not for older.

Kids are a choice. You don't have the resources or skills? Don't have them.

I’m always confused by the idea that we have too many people. The US is one of the least densely populated countries on earth.

Paid leave is a no brainer. Essentially every country on earth has it except us.

 

[Paratus]

America is an extremely wealthy nation despite those (republicans) that "act-like" we are on the brink of financial disaster. Republicans (and Joe Manchin) feel that we can't afford to help the middle class, they say not enough $$$, but just let a top 1% tax cut come along and with lightening speed that tax cut will pass with the cost to the taxpayer and cost to the national debt ignored.

Don't be fooled.
In reality, America has the funds to give every American free college, definitely family leave for at least 4 weeks at a pop, universal healthcare, medicare expansion allowing eye glasses and hearing aids and dental. Bernie Sanders was absolutely right when he said that no American should go without dental care, eye glasses and hearing aids.

Just imagine if that money blown/wasted on wars in the Middle East had been divided between each and every American man woman and child, we all would get a check not for $600, not for $1200, not for $2400 but every American would get a check for ONE MILLION DOLLARS. Yes, every American man woman and child would be, could be, a millionaire.

Come on America, if senators can figure out how to become multi-millionaires on the salary of a senator, which is around $194,000, then the government can figure out how YOU TOO can be a millionaire. Take US senator old Chuck Grassley. His net worth is over 5 million. To get to that figure, old crooked Chuck Grassley would have had to save every dollar, every dime from every paycheck he received for the past 41 years that he has been a senator. Do you think Chuck Grassley did that? Did Grassley save every dollar out of every paycheck over his 41 years as senator? How rich would YOU be if YOU saved every dollar out of every pay check you earned over the past 41 years, or... since you've been working and earning a wage?

iOwa is such a screwed up state, a corrupt state, a state ran by morons such as governor Covid Kim Renoylds. iOwa is so screwed up that I tell people if you want a better life then you have no choice but to leave iOwa. Leave the state. Because no matter how long you wait or hope or wish, your life will never improve as long as you live in iOwa. You must get out if you want a better life with an actual future. Well.... I now feel the same about living in America. If you as an American want a better life, a better future with healthcare and family leave and an guaranteed college education, you will need to flee America for some other "family friendly" country. Like, most any country NOT America.

And believe you me.... for the American middle class it is only going to get worse. When Donald Trump is back in the presidency and Mitch McConnell owns the US senate once again, does anyone really think that a reelected president Trump or reinstated majority leader Mitch McConnell will give America, give the American middle class ANYTHING??? Family leave, HELL NO! Expanded medicare, HELL NO! Modern roads and bridges, HELL NO! A decent wage??? Absolutely positively a big HELL NO!!!!!!

And there you have the difference between republicans and democrats. Both parties know the money is there to give every American everything within Joe Biden's BBB package. EVERYTHING!!! But republicans, and Trump, would give the American middle class nada, and instead hand over that $$$$$ TO THE TOP 1 %. That's what republicans and Donald Trump have done, and that is exactly what they will do again. And suddenly, national debts become moot. Becomes moot because people like Trump worship the theory of trickle-down. If Jeff Bezos pays no taxes, surely THAT $$$ will trickle down to YOU.... Right????

Check your math.

320 million Americans X $1,000,000 is $320 TRILLION. I know those wars were costly but it wasn’t that bad.

I'm talking as someone who's had to do somebody else's job because they thought staying home to burp somebody was more important than earning a living to pay their expenses.

So you chose not to take advantage of a paid leave benefit that your co-worker did and now you’re jealous and angry of them.

Sounds like you may want to consider therapy.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Can’t even get my mind around this debate. Here, it just is. I have one employee partway through a maternal leave, another who just came back from parental leave and it’s just normal. They don’t fear how their family will be supported. Perhaps the OP can tell me how a new single mother can survive the first bit on her own with no backstop like maternity leave to help her. Not everyone has families who don’t work and can provide child care to a new born as a full time job for free.

 

[snoopy7548]

I'm talking as someone who's had to do somebody else's job because they thought staying home to burp somebody was more important than earning a living to pay their expenses.

And it's their fault you didn't leave your job for a better one? Your employer owes nothing to you; if you're not happy with the workload, you're free to leave anytime you want.

Semi-"/s"

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Do any first world countries with paid parental leave have overpopulation problems? Please list them. You'd have to basically consider Europe. So where is the overpopulation there due to excessive birth rates spurred by paid parental leave?

I’m always confused by the idea that we have too many people. The US is one of the least densely populated countries on earth.

Paid leave is a no brainer. Essentially every country on earth has it except us.

You ever hear the saying 'if you like it better there, go there'?

You ever hear the saying 'don't California my (insert location here)?' Don't Europe my US.

I worked enough years that I don't have to any more. But I rarely, if ever called off work. If I did, it was for a very good reason. I only took vacations because they made me. It wasn't even use it or lose it, for some reason certain companies required employees to take the two weeks off whether they wanted to or not. I guess it was because they knew they had to pay the time and didn't want to pay it and your wage for working.

 

[fskimospy]

You ever hear the saying 'if you like it better there, go there'?

You ever hear the saying 'don't California my (insert location here)?' Don't Europe my US.

I worked enough years that I don't have to any more. But I rarely, if ever called off work. If I did, it was for a very good reason. I only took vacations because they made me. It wasn't even use it or lose it, for some reason certain companies required employees to take the two weeks off whether they wanted to or not. I guess it was because they knew they had to pay the time and didn't want to pay it and your wage for working.

I’ve heard that argument but it’s stupid. It would apply equally to any suggestion that anywhere else on earth might do something better than us.

This would make the Us better so we should do it. I don’t care how you did it in the past, that’s over.

 

[Commodus]

I don't have kids and knew I didn't want them at all since I was in my early twenties, and I'm 46 now, and I know that paid parental leave is a great idea for society. Just trying to stick up for those of us that are childless but still able to support good policy.

That's fair, and an important consideration — I should clarify that the issue is actively hating kids, as HTTP does, not just whether someone has or is planning to have kids.

 

[Paratus]

You ever hear the saying 'if you like it better there, go there'?

You ever hear the saying 'don't California my (insert location here)?' Don't Europe my US.

I worked enough years that I don't have to any more. But I rarely, if ever called off work. If I did, it was for a very good reason. I only took vacations because they made me. It wasn't even use it or lose it, for some reason certain companies required employees to take the two weeks off whether they wanted to or not. I guess it was because they knew they had to pay the time and didn't want to pay it and your wage for working.

I’m sure your reasons for taking off were shit. Sounds like if you were truly a good employee you wouldn’t have taken off and you would have worked for less money.

Oh wait you already did by forgoing your paid leave. Lol.

 

[MrSquished]

I’ve heard that argument but it’s stupid. It would apply equally to any suggestion that anywhere else on earth might do something better than us.

This would make the Us better so we should do it. I don’t care how you did it in the past, that’s over.

Beat me too it. Just because it was done in the past it's good enough now. That argument would easily extrapolated to justify lots of dumb dumb policy from years past.