Thoughts on 'paid leave'?

Nov 17, 2019
11,292
6,714
136


I might go along with it for the first child. Maybe a shorter term for the second. Beyond that, none.

We have too many people. We don't need to pay (or compensate) people to have more. And yes, the same for the various tax credits. First child only. Reduced for the second. None for more than that.

Paid Family leave for adopted kids? No. Maybe for infants, definitely not for older.

Kids are a choice. You don't have the resources or skills? Don't have them.
 
Reactions: killster1

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
My company implemented 3 weeks the year after my daughter was born, then 12 weeks a couple years after that. I think it's been a great change, especially to the culture. When DD was born I got grief for taking 2 weeks and going to all her appointments. Now no one says anything about dads taking 12 weeks off. Research also shows that dads who take leave have a more active role in their child's entire life and work split with the mother much more equally.

If you want less kids born, you should be highly encouraging adoption, not discouraging it. There is absolutely no reason an adoptive parent should be excluded for a new placement.
 
Nov 17, 2019
11,292
6,714
136
Allowing time off is one thing. Paying you to stay home and burp a kid is another.

Who does your job while you're out? Do they hire somebody else temporarily, raising costs by paying two people? Or do they offload your duties onto someone else, increasing their job load?
 
Reactions: Pohemi and KMFJD

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,814
136
Allowing time off is one thing. Paying you to stay home and burp a kid is another.

Who does your job while you're out? Do they hire somebody else temporarily, raising costs by paying two people? Or do they offload your duties onto someone else, increasing their job load?

Maybe we should ask like the entire rest of the planet that has figured this out and they can give us some pointers since we're so f'ing clueless.






https://www.npr.org/2016/10/06/4958...the-world-beat-the-u-s-on-paid-parental-leave
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,046
10,224
136


I might go along with it for the first child. Maybe a shorter term for the second. Beyond that, none.

We have too many people. We don't need to pay (or compensate) people to have more. And yes, the same for the various tax credits. First child only. Reduced for the second. None for more than that.

Paid Family leave for adopted kids? No. Maybe for infants, definitely not for older.

Kids are a choice. You don't have the resources or skills? Don't have them.

Wow, you're basically anti-children. Why are you discriminating against adopted kids? They have a shit time as it is.

Children are the future. Screw people over for it and soon you'll be paying them to have children. And if your opinions were policy, your subsequent U-turn wouldn't be trustworthy. That and little will stop idiotic people having children, so chances are you'll end up with more idiotic children.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,597
29,300
136


I might go along with it for the first child. Maybe a shorter term for the second. Beyond that, none.

We have too many people. We don't need to pay (or compensate) people to have more. And yes, the same for the various tax credits. First child only. Reduced for the second. None for more than that.

Paid Family leave for adopted kids? No. Maybe for infants, definitely not for older.

Kids are a choice. You don't have the resources or skills? Don't have them.
The first 5 years of a kid's life are the most important, developmentally speaking. Every extra minute spent ensuring the best possible environment for a kid at that age pays unquantifiable dividends moving forward.

As for your fears that people will just have kids to avoid work, I assure you there are very few jobs more demanding than raising kids, physically, mentally or emotionally. If you don't believe me, at least look how every other country with paid leave does not have the problem you fear.

Might be a good time to reflect on why you were susceptible to a very conservative line of thinking. It's very similar to their objections for other safety nets.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,077
136
The first 5 years of a kid's life are the most important, developmentally speaking. Every extra minute spent ensuring the best possible environment for a kid at that age pays unquantifiable dividends moving forward.

As for your fears that people will just have kids to avoid work, I assure you there are very few jobs more demanding than raising kids, physically, mentally or emotionally. If you don't believe me, at least look how every other country with paid leave does not have the problem you fear.

Might be a good time to reflect on why you were susceptible to a very conservative line of thinking. It's very similar to their objections for other safety nets.
I did two months of paid leave with both of my kids dovetailing after my wife finished hers and I can easily say work is easier.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,597
29,300
136
I did two months of paid leave with both of my kids dovetailing after my wife finished hers and I can easily say work is easier.
As a career-long office worker I can comfortably say playing certain video games is much harder than most office jobs.
 

SmCaudata

Senior member
Oct 8, 2006
969
1,532
136
Children need to be taken care of. We have 3 options.

1. Pay people enough so that one parent can stay home unpaid.
2. Provide paid leave.
3. Pay people more so they can afford the ridiculously high cost of child care.

Now look at those options. Why in the actual fuck should we chose number 3. Having the parents of the child care for the child is infinitely better than a stranger. We know that improved bonding early in life helps with future emotional stability.

America's fascination with working 50+ hours per week for piss poor wages is laughable. The ruling class (businesses) have brainwashed the rest of America into thinking that we only have value when we "work hard." I'm glad that younger generations are figuring this out.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136


I might go along with it for the first child. Maybe a shorter term for the second. Beyond that, none.

We have too many people. We don't need to pay (or compensate) people to have more. And yes, the same for the various tax credits. First child only. Reduced for the second. None for more than that.

Paid Family leave for adopted kids? No. Maybe for infants, definitely not for older.

Kids are a choice. You don't have the resources or skills? Don't have them.

That’s a whole lot of stupidity right there. Tell me again how we don’t have a worker shortage. Tell me again how our consumerism economy will continue growing or maintain if we continue down the path of people having less and less children?

The problem with people like you is that you lack foresight and don’t see the big picture. I know you aren’t a righty so changing this bad habit should be an option for you.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
The first 5 years of a kid's life are the most important, developmentally speaking. Every extra minute spent ensuring the best possible environment for a kid at that age pays unquantifiable dividends moving forward.

As for your fears that people will just have kids to avoid work, I assure you there are very few jobs more demanding than raising kids, physically, mentally or emotionally. If you don't believe me, at least look how every other country with paid leave does not have the problem you fear.

Might be a good time to reflect on why you were susceptible to a very conservative line of thinking. It's very similar to their objections for other safety nets.

His complaint follows the same logic as those that think having access to abortions means women will use abortion as a form of birth control, that is, it’s not logical at all and denies reality.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,493
3,159
136
America is an extremely wealthy nation despite those (republicans) that "act-like" we are on the brink of financial disaster. Republicans (and Joe Manchin) feel that we can't afford to help the middle class, they say not enough $$$, but just let a top 1% tax cut come along and with lightening speed that tax cut will pass with the cost to the taxpayer and cost to the national debt ignored.

Don't be fooled.
In reality, America has the funds to give every American free college, definitely family leave for at least 4 weeks at a pop, universal healthcare, medicare expansion allowing eye glasses and hearing aids and dental. Bernie Sanders was absolutely right when he said that no American should go without dental care, eye glasses and hearing aids.

Just imagine if that money blown/wasted on wars in the Middle East had been divided between each and every American man woman and child, we all would get a check not for $600, not for $1200, not for $2400 but every American would get a check for ONE MILLION DOLLARS. Yes, every American man woman and child would be, could be, a millionaire.

Come on America, if senators can figure out how to become multi-millionaires on the salary of a senator, which is around $194,000, then the government can figure out how YOU TOO can be a millionaire. Take US senator old Chuck Grassley. His net worth is over 5 million. To get to that figure, old crooked Chuck Grassley would have had to save every dollar, every dime from every paycheck he received for the past 41 years that he has been a senator. Do you think Chuck Grassley did that? Did Grassley save every dollar out of every paycheck over his 41 years as senator? How rich would YOU be if YOU saved every dollar out of every pay check you earned over the past 41 years, or... since you've been working and earning a wage?

iOwa is such a screwed up state, a corrupt state, a state ran by morons such as governor Covid Kim Renoylds. iOwa is so screwed up that I tell people if you want a better life then you have no choice but to leave iOwa. Leave the state. Because no matter how long you wait or hope or wish, your life will never improve as long as you live in iOwa. You must get out if you want a better life with an actual future. Well.... I now feel the same about living in America. If you as an American want a better life, a better future with healthcare and family leave and an guaranteed college education, you will need to flee America for some other "family friendly" country. Like, most any country NOT America.

And believe you me.... for the American middle class it is only going to get worse. When Donald Trump is back in the presidency and Mitch McConnell owns the US senate once again, does anyone really think that a reelected president Trump or reinstated majority leader Mitch McConnell will give America, give the American middle class ANYTHING??? Family leave, HELL NO! Expanded medicare, HELL NO! Modern roads and bridges, HELL NO! A decent wage??? Absolutely positively a big HELL NO!!!!!!

And there you have the difference between republicans and democrats. Both parties know the money is there to give every American everything within Joe Biden's BBB package. EVERYTHING!!! But republicans, and Trump, would give the American middle class nada, and instead hand over that $$$$$ TO THE TOP 1 %. That's what republicans and Donald Trump have done, and that is exactly what they will do again. And suddenly, national debts become moot. Becomes moot because people like Trump worship the theory of trickle-down. If Jeff Bezos pays no taxes, surely THAT $$$ will trickle down to YOU.... Right????
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,046
10,224
136
Children need to be taken care of. We have 3 options.

1. Pay people enough so that one parent can stay home unpaid.
2. Provide paid leave.
3. Pay people more so they can afford the ridiculously high cost of child care.

Now look at those options. Why in the actual fuck should we chose number 3. Having the parents of the child care for the child is infinitely better than a stranger. We know that improved bonding early in life helps with future emotional stability.

America's fascination with working 50+ hours per week for piss poor wages is laughable. The ruling class (businesses) have brainwashed the rest of America into thinking that we only have value when we "work hard." I'm glad that younger generations are figuring this out.

1.5: re-balance (reduce) the hours of a full-time job (without reducing pay) to ensure that both adults can work "full-time" and take care of the home/kids.
 
Reactions: dank69 and Pohemi

SmCaudata

Senior member
Oct 8, 2006
969
1,532
136
1.5: re-balance (reduce) the hours of a full-time job (without reducing pay) to ensure that both adults can work "full-time" and take care of the home/kids.
Which effectively increases hourly rates.

That said, there is no amount of "rebalancing hours" that allows for breastfeeding. Little babies eat ever 2-3 hours.

Moms need 3+ months of full leave then flip to partial days.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,046
10,224
136
Which effectively increases hourly rates.

That said, there is no amount of "rebalancing hours" that allows for breastfeeding. Little babies eat ever 2-3 hours.

Moms need 3+ months of full leave then flip to partial days.

You won't get any argument from me there, I just thought I'd mention (what I said) because IMO the current notion of a full-time job (which is basically >36 hours depending on which way the wind blows) isn't a good fit with modern society where both adults are expected to work full-time.
 

SmCaudata

Senior member
Oct 8, 2006
969
1,532
136
You won't get any argument from me there, I just thought I'd mention (what I said) because IMO the current notion of a full-time job (which is basically >36 hours depending on which way the wind blows) isn't a good fit with modern society where both adults are expected to work full-time.
Totally agree. The 32 hour week with sabbatical model found in much of Europe should be what we strive for here.
 

uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
5,578
2,913
136


I might go along with it for the first child. Maybe a shorter term for the second. Beyond that, none.

We have too many people. We don't need to pay (or compensate) people to have more. And yes, the same for the various tax credits. First child only. Reduced for the second. None for more than that.

Paid Family leave for adopted kids? No. Maybe for infants, definitely not for older.

Kids are a choice. You don't have the resources or skills? Don't have them.
https://c.tenor.com/ZrmXLm03g5oAAAAC/oitnb-taystee.gif

seriously. Just an awful idea.
 
Nov 17, 2019
11,292
6,714
136
Might be a good time to reflect on why you were susceptible to a very conservative line of thinking.
You mean like the Duggars and so many other families (some that I knew) that popped them out like walking Pez dispensers? That kind of 'conservative'? The 'go forth and procreate' conservatives?

As far as care and two parties working .... work opposite shifts. Or one works from home. With so much remote work now, at least some could do a big part of their job from home instead of taking the time off and expecting everyone else to cover for them.

And, no, I don't give a toss about how they do it over there.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,139
5,074
136
I have 2 teenagers and the first one was born before we bought a house.
My employer offer paid paternity and maternity leave and at the time it was 2 months for child or adopted child. They have since up it by several months and many in my company take full advantage of it.
As per policy, once you go on leave, you immediately lose access to stuff so a lot of preparation has to occur prior to going on leave.
My wife left the workforce when the first were born.
I took the full 2 months for both of my children.
First month I took night shift, wife took day shift. Worked out well since our first was good with both boob and bottle. Second one was bit rougher as he like him some ta-tas.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
You mean like the Duggars and so many other families (some that I knew) that popped them out like walking Pez dispensers? That kind of 'conservative'? The 'go forth and procreate' conservatives?

As far as care and two parties working .... work opposite shifts. Or one works from home. With so much remote work now, at least some could do a big part of their job from home instead of taking the time off and expecting everyone else to cover for them.

And, no, I don't give a toss about how they do it over there.

Do you actually have kids or otherwise know what it's like to raise them? Sure doesn't sound like it.

Working from home is not an acceptable substitute for parental leave. Those first few months are very demanding, and you can't keep pausing work to take care of a child that may need your attention for a large chunk of the day.

And opposite shifts... yeah, that's going to make life miserable for both parents and the child. Imagine only seeing your spouse for maybe an hour each day and having to take care of every responsibility over a given period yourself. And imagine the child only ever seeing one parent at a time.

Frankly, you're twisting yourself in knots to avoid acknowledging that parental leave is a good idea. Parents should be there in the early days as much as possible; it's not a huge ask to let one or both parents have some time off to nurture their child at a critical stage. What you lose in short-term productivity you gain with a healthier child and happier parents.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,390
11,742
136
I worked construction nearly all my life. If you aren't on the job...you don't get paid. No paid vacation, no paid sick days, no paid holidays, no paid family leave...and if you're gone more than a day or two...the company might just call the union hall and get a replacement for you.
I never had a problem with that.
 
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