Three NYPD officers have been acquitted of all charges in the 50-shot killing of an unarmed man on his wedding day.

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,954
49,681
136
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
The funny thing is that this would be one of the only times I would agree with him on that. People in America in general are socialized to fear black people, and as I've mentioned in other threads this appears even in other black people. (although not to the same degree as in whites) That's some legit self hate there.
No question, but one has to question whether or not there are some reinforcing behavioral and cultural elements within certain black communities that continue to fuel and project such stereotypes?

I wouldn't necessary say that people in America are socialized to fear black people...but there are certain black neighborhoods, or cultural/behavioral patterns, that I as a white person avoid...is that racism fueled socialization or common sense?

I have certainly had one or two late night encounters on subway platforms where I questioned my own safety, and felt I was the target of certain behaviors for being a white male in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Behavioral socialization is a two way street...if certain demographics, or communities, project certain behavioral patterns...it should come as no surprise that other demographics, or communities, make judgement calls based on those exhibited behaviors.

Well most stereotypes have some sort of basis in truth however flimsy. It doesn't mean that they are rational or that they aren't a sign of anti black racism though. In addition, just because you are socialized into a certain behavior doesn't mean that it would have to be bad. I'm socialized not to pee my pants in public, and I'm very glad my parents took the time to do that back when I was 1 or whatever. I would say it would be extremely difficult to justify the socialization of "black people = threat" however.

People in America are nearly certainly socialized to fear black people. No it is not common sense to be afraid of an entire race of people. There are a few extended threads on this that I participated in awhile ago. Simply put, there is strong scientific evidence that people are categorically afraid of black people. It is not a reasoned response, it is a fight/flight mechanism response. There is no rational reason for the vast majority of white people to have this fear as they have never had any negative experiences of this type with black people and yet it is nearly universal. This strongly suggests that the source of this fear is coming from society at large as opposed to personal experience, thus they are almost certainly socialized to fear black people.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Linux23
Originally posted by: glutenberg
Originally posted by: Linux23
Hopefully these cops get Street Justice one day.

You're hoping for more violence? That is no way to solve the tension between law enforcement and the public.

There is no solution to the tension. Just saying that one day people are going to get tried and push back, and I would hate to be one of those cops. Cops love it when they are the only one with the firearms, they think they are god almighty. But when someone is firing back, their whole attitude changes. Look at the LA Bank Robbery, where those two guys had machine guns and armor.

In any case, I hope none of this never transpires, but people are getting tired of the BS.

Those people will side with the Corvalutionaries in the Revolution II starting before your very eyes.
 

Andyb23

Senior member
Oct 27, 2006
501
0
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
I wouldn't get too upset about the verdict yet guys.

Looks like they are far from 'home free' on this thing.

The Justice Department is still deciding on whether they want to bring Federal charges against the murderous trio, and the civil lawsuit is full-steam ahead.

While I don't fully expect the Feds to do much, I do think the civil case has legs. This case is very emotionally charged, and that favors the prosecution in civil cases.

I seriously doubt the civil case will go anywhere.

If you read up more on this incident you see why the judge ruled the way he did. The individual involved, Sean Bell, rammed into a police minivan after being asked to put his hands up and was drunk.

I don't know how much dumber one can get. Look if you are in Queens and a cop asks you to comply, you comply. Especially if you are just exiting from a shady strip club wasted off your ass.
 

Drift3r

Guest
Jun 3, 2003
3,572
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
The funny thing is that this would be one of the only times I would agree with him on that. People in America in general are socialized to fear black people, and as I've mentioned in other threads this appears even in other black people. (although not to the same degree as in whites) That's some legit self hate there.
No question, but one has to question whether or not there are some reinforcing behavioral and cultural elements within certain black communities that continue to fuel and project such stereotypes?

I wouldn't necessary say that people in America are socialized to fear black people...but there are certain black neighborhoods, or cultural/behavioral patterns, that I as a white person avoid...is that racism fueled socialization or common sense?

I have certainly had one or two late night encounters on subway platforms where I questioned my own safety, and felt I was the target of certain behaviors for being a white male in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Behavioral socialization is a two way street...if certain demographics, or communities, project certain behavioral patterns...it should come as no surprise that other demographics, or communities, make judgement calls based on those exhibited behaviors.

Well most stereotypes have some sort of basis in truth however flimsy. It doesn't mean that they are rational or that they aren't a sign of anti black racism though. In addition, just because you are socialized into a certain behavior doesn't mean that it would have to be bad. I'm socialized not to pee my pants in public, and I'm very glad my parents took the time to do that back when I was 1 or whatever. I would say it would be extremely difficult to justify the socialization of "black people = threat" however.

People in America are nearly certainly socialized to fear black people. No it is not common sense to be afraid of an entire race of people. There are a few extended threads on this that I participated in awhile ago. Simply put, there is strong scientific evidence that people are categorically afraid of black people. It is not a reasoned response, it is a fight/flight mechanism response. There is no rational reason for the vast majority of white people to have this fear as they have never had any negative experiences of this type with black people and yet it is nearly universal. This strongly suggests that the source of this fear is coming from society at large as opposed to personal experience, thus they are almost certainly socialized to fear black people.

No...people are afraid of folks who hang out on street corners, listen to music with gangster lyrics about robbing and killing people, people who sell drugs. people who dress up, act and behave like "thugs/criminals" and who generally have a hostile attitude toward anyone they don't care for or like. Along with people who are not reasonable and cannot have a reasonable conversation because they feel the need to act like a out of control (wo)man-child.

 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,702
2,178
126
Originally posted by: Zorba
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Zorba
Originally posted by: Drift3r
Originally posted by: Linux23
Hopefully these cops get Street Justice one day.

They didn't do anything wrong. The guy killed and his friends acted out in a stupid manner and unfortunately they paid for their stupidity. These cops did nothing wrong in this case.

So if I come up to your car at night, with a gun even if I claim I am a cop. Would you just sit there and let me have my way with you or would you try to get away?

I think undercover cops put themselves in stupid situations all the time and I think the victims have a right to defend themselves because how in the hell are they supposed to know that it is actually a cop and not some thug?

Personally, if I am in the bad side of town at night and 5 guys come up to me with guns, I am going to haul ass out of there, and if I run one of them over so be it. If undercover cops didn't act like they were in "Bad Boys" this would've never happened.

If you were a cop and someone was trying to run over you with their car would you just let them do it?

That is why I am saying undercover cops put themselves in stupid situations like that. As soon as a group of 5 people in plain clothes (probably dressed like thugs) pulls out guns, bad shit is going to happened whether or not they are cops. Therefore, I don't think cops should enter into those situations.

Also the police care car they hit I am pretty sure was unmarked so how in the hell were they supposed to knew they were hitting a police car.

Same thing when plain clothes cops bust in the door on a no-knock warrent and then get pissed if they get shot at. You break into my house with guns out looking like a thugs I am going to shoot your ass, then they would probably kill me for defending my household but how was I supposed to know they were really cops?

I don't disagree with what you said, but the point that I was trying to make was that you were just looking at one side of the story. The cops felt their life was in danger, so they shot, just like they were trained.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,702
2,178
126
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
If a bunch of guys pulled guns on me I'd try to run them over too. It's called self defense.

If a guy ran over my friend then tried to run over me I'd shoot him too. It's called self defense.
 

railer

Golden Member
Apr 15, 2000
1,552
67
91
Most all of you are knuckleheads.

There's no easy answer to this, unless you're in 2nd grade.

If I'm the victim, and a few guys are pointing guns at me, I might try like hell to get away. (whether they did or didn't say "I'm a cop", has no relevance, as any mugger or 2 bit carjacker could say the same thing, and probably do.)

If I'm the cop, and someone that I think "might" have a gun tries to run me over, I'm going to shoot at him.

They were both wrong and both right. It was a classic F up.

Riddle me this: How many other people get shot for no reason at all, every single night of the year in NYC, that we all never hear about and could care less about?

I don't know that throwing these cops in jail solves anything at all. It would make the black people happy I guess. Imagine Sharpton if 2/3 of the cops hadn't been black. Riots for sure.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,702
2,178
126
Originally posted by: railer
Most all of you are knuckleheads.

There's no easy answer to this, unless you're in 2nd grade.

If I'm the victim, and a few guys are pointing guns at me, I might try like hell to get away. (whether they did or didn't say "I'm a cop", has no relevance, as any mugger or 2 bit carjacker could say the same thing, and probably do.)

If I'm the cop, and someone that I think "might" have a gun tries to run me over, I'm going to shoot at him.

They were both wrong and both right. It was a classic F up.

Riddle me this: How many other people get shot for no reason at all, every single night of the year in NYC, that we all never hear about and could care less about?

I don't know that throwing these cops in jail solves anything at all. It would make the black people happy I guess. Imagine Sharpton if 2/3 of the cops hadn't been black. Riots for sure.

My point exactly.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
3
0
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
If a bunch of guys pulled guns on me I'd try to run them over too. It's called self defense.

If a guy ran over my friend then tried to run over me I'd shoot him too. It's called self defense.

If you were a cop, hopefully you'd have the common sense not to create a situations where a citizen has to defend himself with lethal force from you.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,702
2,178
126
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
If a bunch of guys pulled guns on me I'd try to run them over too. It's called self defense.

If a guy ran over my friend then tried to run over me I'd shoot him too. It's called self defense.

If you were a cop, hopefully you'd have the common sense not to create a situations where a citizen has to defend himself with lethal force from you.

If you were a citizen, hopefully you'd have the common sense not to create a situations where a cop has to defend himself with lethal force from you.
 

Venix

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2002
1,084
3
81
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
If a bunch of guys pulled guns on me I'd try to run them over too. It's called self defense.

If a guy ran over my friend then tried to run over me I'd shoot him too. It's called self defense.

If you were a cop, hopefully you'd have the common sense not to create a situations where a citizen has to defend himself with lethal force from you.

If you were a citizen, hopefully you'd have the common sense not to create a situations where a cop has to defend himself with lethal force from you.

How the hell did Sean Bell create the situation? The officers instigated the encounter, and chose the worst possible place and time to do it.

They could have stopped the group before they reached the car. They could have waited to see if Bell's friend actually did retrieve a weapon. They could have followed the car and had a marked unit pull it over.

Instead, they chose the most dangerous possibility: wait until the suspects are in the car with the doors closed and the engine running, then have a bunch of guys in street clothes run up to them with guns drawn. You don't need to be a Nobel laureate to see the potential problems with that plan.

That said, I don't think that the officers' behavior was criminal. They deserve to lose their jobs and pay a hefty settlement in civil court for being reckless, but I see little benefit in imprisonment.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,702
2,178
126
Originally posted by: Venix


How the hell did Sean Bell create the situation? The officers instigated the encounter, and chose the worst possible place and time to do it.

They could have stopped the group before they reached the car.

Reading the article would help you understand why they didn't stop him before he got to the car....

They could have waited to see if Bell's friend actually did retrieve a weapon.

Yea, good idea, wait until AFTER someone has a weapon to confront them...:roll:

They could have followed the car and had a marked unit pull it over.

Then if there was a car chase and an innocent civilian got killed you'd be asking why they didn't stop them before they got in their car.

Instead, they chose the most dangerous possibility: wait until the suspects are in the car with the doors closed and the engine running, then have a bunch of guys in street clothes run up to them with guns drawn. You don't need to be a Nobel laureate to see the potential problems with that plan.

Actually, both of your suggestions would have been more dangerous than what they did.

That said, I don't think that the officers' behavior was criminal. They deserve to lose their jobs and pay a hefty settlement in civil court for being reckless, but I see little benefit in imprisonment.

None of us know what actually happened, and the person that has the most details as to what did happened already made his decision, the cops were acquitted. Like another poster said, both sides probably could have been a little smarter, but without having any real details we are all just guessing.
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
76
Originally posted by: JD50


None of us know what actually happened, and the person that has the most details as to what did happened already made his decision, the cops were acquitted. Like another poster said, both sides probably could have been a little smarter, but without having any real details we are all just guessing.

Its too bad the side that needs to start acting smarter isn't. If you can get away with almost anything, why change?

On a related note, Massachusetts Police Get Black Uniforms to Instill Sense of 'Fear'

This will certainly make everything better. Can't wait to see how badly this will turn out.
 

Venix

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2002
1,084
3
81
Originally posted by: JD50
Reading the article would help you understand why they didn't stop him before he got to the car....

If the cop was close enough to hear the guy allegedly say, "I'm going to get my gun," he certainly could have stopped him right there. Hell, it would be safer than most stops because the guy just admitted that he isn't armed.

Yea, good idea, wait until AFTER someone has a weapon to confront them...:roll:

They already waited until he had the weapon; he was in the car, remember? Are you seriously suggesting that encountering an armed man in a car is preferable to encountering him in plain view on the street?

Then if there was a car chase and an innocent civilian got killed you'd be asking why they didn't stop them before they got in their car.

Wrong and irrelevant. The very unlikely possibility of a car chase is not an excuse to recklessly rush the car with guns drawn.

Furthermore, if the car leaves, the guy obviously wasn't going to get a gun. Why even bother pursuing it?

None of us know what actually happened, and the person that has the most details as to what did happened already made his decision, the cops were acquitted. Like another poster said, both sides probably could have been a little smarter, but without having any real details we are all just guessing.

Based on the officers' own accounts of what happened, they acted foolishly at best. The victim and his friends are certainly dipshits (driving drunk, allegedly threatening to get a gun), but that has little bearing on whether the police behaved appropriately.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how Sean Bell "created a situation where a cop has to defend himself with lethal force." Is getting in your car and panicing when armed men in street clothes attack you really "creating a situation"?
 

Andyb23

Senior member
Oct 27, 2006
501
0
0
LOL I'm going to bet 99% of you have never been in or around Queens or the Bronx. Cops operating in those boroughs are putting their lives on the line every day. This isn't the suburbs or even Manhattan. There are bullets out there that are specifically designed to tear through bulletproof vests.

Seriously do you guys think all cops are out to get you? Yea I thought that once... when I was in my late teens. Grow up people. Yea sure there are bad cops out there, but I'd say there is just as large a percentage of good cops as well.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,702
2,178
126
Originally posted by: Venix
Originally posted by: JD50
Reading the article would help you understand why they didn't stop him before he got to the car....

If the cop was close enough to hear the guy allegedly say, "I'm going to get my gun," he certainly could have stopped him right there. Hell, it would be safer than most stops because the guy just admitted that he isn't armed.

Yea, good idea, wait until AFTER someone has a weapon to confront them...:roll:

They already waited until he had the weapon; he was in the car, remember? Are you seriously suggesting that encountering an armed man in a car is preferable to encountering him in plain view on the street?

Then if there was a car chase and an innocent civilian got killed you'd be asking why they didn't stop them before they got in their car.

Wrong and irrelevant. The very unlikely possibility of a car chase is not an excuse to recklessly rush the car with guns drawn.

Furthermore, if the car leaves, the guy obviously wasn't going to get a gun. Why even bother pursuing it?

None of us know what actually happened, and the person that has the most details as to what did happened already made his decision, the cops were acquitted. Like another poster said, both sides probably could have been a little smarter, but without having any real details we are all just guessing.

Based on the officers' own accounts of what happened, they acted foolishly at best. The victim and his friends are certainly dipshits (driving drunk, allegedly threatening to get a gun), but that has little bearing on whether the police behaved appropriately.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how Sean Bell "created a situation where a cop has to defend himself with lethal force." Is getting in your car and panicing when armed men in street clothes attack you really "creating a situation"?

Like I said, read the article. They weren't waiting for them to get into the car, they were waiting for backup..."one of the undercover detectives followed the men and called for backup."

Wanting to prevent a chase before it happens is hardly irrelevant, seeing as that is probably one of the reasons why they didn't wait for them to drive off and then chase them. If you have them stopped already, why would you wait for them to start driving, follow them, attempt a felony traffic stop, and put even more people lives in danger? It's obvious that you have never been in law enforcement (I don't mean that in a bad way") because you are not able to see the bigger picture and the way that cops think. If you are not at all familiar with police tactics and training it'd probably be better to not critique them.

If there is a report that someone is going to get a gun from their car, you stop them, period. Just because they drive off does not mean that they aren't going to still act on that threat. What if he drives off, goes and gets a gun, comes back and shoots 10 people? Then you have someone say "well I told the cops that he was going to get a gun, but they didn't do anything about it, they are obviously racist and don't care about black people (or some other equally silly claim)". So now the police are held liable because they didn't act on a tip that someone was going to get a gun.

And my comment about Bell "creating a situation yada yada yada" was in response to Throckmorton not being able to see two sides to the story, I was just trying to show him the other side. At least you seem to be able to somewhat see the other side. Neither the cops nor Bell really created a bad situation, it just happened, which is pretty common.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,702
2,178
126
Originally posted by: CitizenKain
Originally posted by: JD50


None of us know what actually happened, and the person that has the most details as to what did happened already made his decision, the cops were acquitted. Like another poster said, both sides probably could have been a little smarter, but without having any real details we are all just guessing.

Its too bad the side that needs to start acting smarter isn't. If you can get away with almost anything, why change?

On a related note, Massachusetts Police Get Black Uniforms to Instill Sense of 'Fear'

This will certainly make everything better. Can't wait to see how badly this will turn out.

I hear they are also getting black helicopters, better keep an eye out for them....
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
If a bunch of guys pulled guns on me I'd try to run them over too. It's called self defense.

If a guy ran over my friend then tried to run over me I'd shoot him too. It's called self defense.

If you were a cop, hopefully you'd have the common sense not to create a situations where a citizen has to defend himself with lethal force from you.

If you were a citizen, hopefully you'd have the common sense not to create a situations where a cop has to defend himself with lethal force from you.

There was no evidence of "lethal force" from the dis-ceased.

If it was "lethal force" from the dis-ceased there would be a dead officer.

That's OK, if police keep this up there will be a drop in the amount of people in the court system and prisons.
 

Dessert Tears

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2005
1,100
0
76
Originally posted by: Tab
Wow. Talk about pulling out the racism card. Does anyone know the details of the verdict? I'd more interested in actual facts than "OMG POLICE BRUTALITY!!!". :rolls:
Text of verdict: PDF
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,314
9,411
146
I agree with this guy, writing for that Liberal New York Times:

THE first time I almost shot someone, I wasn?t that scared.

It was 1986, and my partner and I had responded to a report of a man waving a knife inside the Port Authority Bus Terminal. When we arrived, I saw the knife in the man?s outstretched arm. I drew my weapon, and I yelled at him to drop the knife. My partner began inching his way toward the man, pleading with him to put the knife down. I made up my mind that I was going to shoot if the man lunged toward us. My partner got close enough to swing his nightstick down on the man?s arm. The knife fell to the ground and we quickly handcuffed him.

Why wasn?t I scared? Because I could see the threat clearly; I knew what I was facing. There were plenty of other times during my 20-year police career, however, when I was afraid. Usually it was when I couldn?t clearly see a potential suspect and didn?t know if he had a weapon. For a police officer, if a suspect is ignoring your commands and you can?t see his hands, you will feel that your life is in danger.

That was the situation that faced the police detectives who shot and killed Sean Bell outside the Club Kalua in Queens on Nov. 25, 2006. So I?m glad that on Friday, Justice Arthur J. Cooperman was able to navigate through the rhetoric of the prosecution and acquit Detectives Gescard F. Isnora, Michael Oliver and Marc Cooper on manslaughter and all other charges.


Mr. Bell was killed and two of his friends, Joseph Guzman and Trent Benefield, were seriously wounded in a fusillade of 50 bullets. The police, who were conducting a prostitution sting, said that Mr. Bell tried to drive over an undercover detective. The officers fired because they thought one of the Bell party had a gun.

Since no gun was found in the vehicle, it is clear that the police officers made a tragic mistake. They even violated department guidelines, which prohibit using deadly force against someone in a vehicle unless he is threatening an officer?s life by means other than the vehicle, such as firing a gun at the same time. But in the end, what they did was not criminal.

When police officers are cleared of charges in a tragedy like the Bell shooting, or that of Amadou Diallo in 1999, critics will look elsewhere to assign blame. A common claim is that if the officers aren?t to blame, the fault must lie in their training. This is nonsense.

At the time of the Diallo shooting, I was an instructor in the Police Department?s in-service training unit. I trained more than 1,000 supervisors, using seminars and role-playing exercises in various subjects including deadly physical force. Trust me: training can instill good habits and safe tactics, but you can?t control the level of fear, or the individual choice that a person makes about when to pull that trigger. In that position, an officer has seconds to make a life-altering decision: Is my life in imminent danger? How to answer that question can?t be taught in a classroom.

That said, I do believe that the first officer to fire his weapon in the Bell case, Detective Isnora, carries a greater moral responsibility than the others. Once he fired, contagious shooting took hold, making it difficult for the others to stop. But this case was not about manslaughter or any other crime. It was about whether the judge believed Detective Isnora when he told the grand jury that he felt his life and the lives of his team members were at stake.

Not many people will ever know what that feels like. Most police officers, myself included, never get shot or even discharge their guns. No one can fairly say that the detectives outside the Kalua were not in a dangerous situation. Some New Yorkers seem to think it wasn?t quite dangerous enough. Well, they can debate that for an eternity. Gescard Isnora wasn?t afforded such leisure.

For most people exonerated at trial, this story would be over ? but not for the police. The officers still face the prospect of federal charges and departmental punishment. It makes me very glad I didn?t have to shoot that man in the Port Authority. Even though he had a knife, the police are always second-guessed when they use deadly physical force.

In his closing arguments last week, the prosecutor, Charles Testagrossa, said, ?We ask the police to risk their lives to protect ours.? I agree. But they shouldn?t have to gamble with them.

Kyle K. Murphy, a former lieutenant in the New York Police Department, is a graduate student in journalism at Columbia.

 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
If a bunch of guys pulled guns on me I'd try to run them over too. It's called self defense.

If a guy ran over my friend then tried to run over me I'd shoot him too. It's called self defense.

Not when you create the situation requiring "self defense"
 
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