Three teenage burglars shot dead in Oklahoma. An AR-15 was used

[Paladin3]

The complication with many tools, e.g. knives, guns, aircraft.
Is that they can be used for good (e.g. shooting at armed, dangerous criminals) or bad things. Even nuclear stuff can be used for good (e.g. in nuclear reactors to give us electricity or in hospitals to help treat cancer), or for bad, such as North Koreas Nuclear weapons program.

I agree, there are various cultural things, which are maybe promoting increases in criminals and violent criminals, such as criminal drug (gangs etc) use.

I wonder to what extent, violence in computer games, TV and various internet things. Are increasing/promoting, the potentially violent society we live in. Maybe even the quality of the food we eat, is a factor. If it is fast food and/or processed food, which is not suppose to be good for us.

You keep looking for a cause in something you can prohibit. How about we look at mandating better parenting and teach our children that there is a different between an "ULTRA KILL" in a video game and the actual taking of a human life.

Do you honestly believe the human spirit and ability to know right from wrong, good from evil, is so weak that it can be corrupted by video games, playing airsoft wars or junk food? I just can't sign off on that notion without feeling like I've given up on my personal responsibility and control over who and what I am. I refuse to.

 

[w3rd]

Stealing is wrong.

Perhaps if these teens were brought up in a conservative house hold, then they would know that people protect their hardwork & belongings. And that they are not free.

These 4 kids (er... 1 girl), live in a different reality than most. I blame their parents & liberal upbringing. Honestly, who breaks into homes anymore..? Heck, 1-2 weeks worth of work is all one could steal (get away with) anyways... VS your life..?

Darwin's Law...

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

You keep looking for a cause in something you can prohibit. How about we look at mandating better parenting and teach our children that there is a different between an "ULTRA KILL" in a video game and the actual taking of a human life.

Do you honestly believe the human spirit and ability to know right from wrong, good from evil, is so weak that it can be corrupted by video games, playing airsoft wars or junk food? I just can't sign off on that notion without feeling like I've given up on my personal responsibility and control over who and what I am. I refuse to.

Sadly, I don't really know what the answers are.

But there must be certain factors, which made those 4 "criminals", decide to go and home invade/burglarize, that home. Is it that society makes people too greedy, want things too quickly and easily ?
It would be interesting to know what the factors were, that made those 4, go out and home invade like that.

Maybe it was poor parenting, too much violent video games, TV and internet things. Maybe bad food has got bad chemicals in it, or is missing vital nutritional elements.

In a hundred or more years, of Police and Jails, around much of the world. We (as a planet, probably), still don't have that much of a good, idea how to "fix" society, to minimize crime, especially violent crime.
I have heard that the Japanese, are good/respectable people, with nice manors and reasonably low crime rates.
But that could well be because of factors you stated, such as good parenting.

 

[HumblePie]

I agree that I should have left, the gun type used in this incident, out of the title and maybe the opening post, of this thread.
Some news sources, seem to have a field day, whenever an AR-15 is used in any kind of gun incident.

When I said "powerful", I meant compared to a normal hand gun, and against very lightly protected (e.g. tea shirt) humans.

At the end of the day, a correctly aimed and shot hand gun, is often fatal. Going beyond that, may not be useful (unless they are firing back at you, in some cases).

Unless you talking about a .380 caliber pocket pistol or smaller, most handguns are more powerful than the Ar-15. Any handgun using 9mm ammo is going to be more powerful.

As for the second part of your target, any real gun is going to be effective against a human wearing a tee-shirt. Defending yourself with a BB gun just isn't really effective.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Unless you talking about a .380 caliber pocket pistol or smaller, most handguns are more powerful than the Ar-15. Any handgun using 9mm ammo is going to be more powerful.

As for the second part of your target, any real gun is going to be effective against a human wearing a tee-shirt. Defending yourself with a BB gun just isn't really effective.

I agree with the second part of your reply, but...

Compare the damage an AR-15 and a 9mm handgun can do to the human body: “One looks like a grenade went off in there,” says Peter Rhee, a trauma surgeon at the University of Arizona. “The other looks like a bad knife cut.”

Source:
https://www.wired.com/2016/06/ar-15-can-human-body/

 

[momeNt]

Unless you talking about a .380 caliber pocket pistol or smaller, most handguns are more powerful than the Ar-15. Any handgun using 9mm ammo is going to be more powerful.

As for the second part of your target, any real gun is going to be effective against a human wearing a tee-shirt. Defending yourself with a BB gun just isn't really effective.

No, and quite frankly that makes you sound like a fudd.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy

Rifle energies

Pistol energies

You can call a 5.56 high powered in relationship to all rounds or handgun rounds, but not in relationship to rifle rounds. But at that point is really is just semantics.

About as powerful as a .50 AE round. 25% more powerful than .44mag

 

[HumblePie]

I agree with the second part of your reply, but...



Source:
https://www.wired.com/2016/06/ar-15-can-human-body/

Better to look at the plethora of ballistic tests out there. Many of them on youtube. 9mm from a handgun can actually over penetrate and pass through the human body. A shot from a 5.56 shot center mass won't likely penetrate out the other side. Getting your info from a "news" source that tend to be very critical of any firearm is not exactly the best place to get good info from. There are many objective testing places that do all sorts of ballistic tests.

 

[HumblePie]

No, and quite frankly that makes you sound like a fudd.

Talking about over penetration in terms of "power" on a soft target. It's mainly because it has the mass to carry through and not fall apart. A 5.56 rifle round is less like to over penetrate walls and hit targets on the other side than a 9mm round too. I wasn't strictly talking kinetic energy at the muzzle either.

According to even FBI tests on penetration, the 5.56 and .223 rounds always penetrated less on soft targets and walls than 9mm rounds from handguns.

 

[momeNt]

Talking about over penetration in terms of "power" on a soft target. It's mainly because it has the mass to carry through and not fall apart. A 5.56 rifle round is less like to over penetrate walls and hit targets on the other side than a 9mm round too. I was strictly talking kinetic energy at the muzzle either.

ultimately semantics which we can all agree on.

 

[HumblePie]

ultimately semantics which we can all agree on.

Not really when it comes to home defense. An easier to aim, easier to stay on target, and less likely to over-penetrate while firing at an unarmored home invader is a much better home defense firearm. Although hand guns are easier to maneuver in comparison to any civilian rifle.

 

[momeNt]

Not really when it comes to home defense. An easier to aim, easier to stay on target, and less likely to over-penetrate while firing at an unarmored home invader is a much better home defense firearm. Although hand guns are easier to maneuver in comparison to any civilian rifle.

I was referring to your very specific definition of power.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Better to look at the plethora of ballistic tests out there. Many of them on youtube. 9mm from a handgun can actually over penetrate and pass through the human body. A shot from a 5.56 shot center mass won't likely penetrate out the other side. Getting your info from a "news" source that tend to be very critical of any firearm is not exactly the best place to get good info from. There are many objective testing places that do all sorts of ballistic tests.

The 5.56 shot doesn't need to penetrate and pass through the human body, because it has already ripped your insides up so much, that the shot person's very survival is not certain.
Sources seem to say, that if it did exit, the 5.56 shot would leave an exit wound the size of an orange.

If the 5.56 shot is so weak, how come only two (or a small number of shots, but I've not seen the number of shots info released yet), killed all three home invaders ?

 

[imported_tajmahal]

Much depends on where the shots hit. A long gun is almost always easier to aim with better sights and a longer sight radius than a handgun. The .223 round is also a more powerful round than most handguns. I haven't seen what type of ammunition the home owner was using. There's quite a few different loads that may have been used.
https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/reloading/223-home-defense-ammo

 

[HumblePie]

The 5.56 shot doesn't need to penetrate and pass through the human body, because it has already ripped your insides up so much, that the shot person's very survival is not certain.
Sources seem to say, that if it did exit, the 5.56 shot would leave an exit wound the size of an orange.

If the 5.56 shot is so weak, how come only two (or a small number of shots, but I've not seen the number of shots info released yet), killed all three home invaders ?

It's a rifle designed to tumble the round. Of course it's going to create a big wound channel in the target. Handgun ammo needs to be a good hollow point to be even close to that. Which is why it is a good self defense weapon for home use. It's not so powerful, like most hunting rifles, to typically over penetrate the target and the wall behind the target.

I just take umbrage to the way you used the term "powerful" in your initial assessment when pairing with the term "assault rifle" as to make it seem like some super weapon capable of mass destruction. It's a rifle, and not a particularly powerful one. Hell you can't even use it to hunt feral hogs around here effectively unless you want to get gored. You need a regular hunting rifle that uses more powerful rounds for that. That 5.56 is just going to mostly piss off the hogs. Ask any hunter around here. You can take some smaller deer with it I guess, and definitely smaller animals, but it just isn't that effective for bigger game or game with thicker bones.

About the only rifle really weaker than the 5.56 in terms of "power" that I still use in quotes because it is such a subjective term, would be something like a ruger 10/22 which fires .22lr ammo.

I own and use many guns and rifles. I just find the media FUD about military styled rifles to be annoying. Especially when people like you eat up said FUD like gospel.

 

[chucky2]

So happy the three home invaders are dead, no need to pay for the POS incarceration. Unfortunately the woman in the car didn't also venture in, we could just be rid of the scum and that's that. 3 out of 4 ain't bad...

P.S. The reason rifle rounds are more capable than handgun rounds is because of their permanent stretch cavities. Yes many handgun rounds can have a nice temporary stretch cavity however that has not been proven to matter to bringing down and human. Additional functions such as tumbling are 'icing on the cake'. I can't say for sure about the truly high velocity handgun rounds (such as 5.7x28) however even 10mm Auto out of handgun at real 10mm loadings doesn't come close to producing rifle like permanent stretch cavities (ain't no 9mm going to perform as well as real 10mm).

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

It's a rifle designed to tumble the round. Of course it's going to create a big wound channel in the target. Handgun ammo needs to be a good hollow point to be even close to that. Which is why it is a good self defense weapon for home use. It's not so powerful, like most hunting rifles, to typically over penetrate the target and the wall behind the target.

I just take umbrage to the way you used the term "powerful" in your initial assessment when pairing with the term "assault rifle" as to make it seem like some super weapon capable of mass destruction. It's a rifle, and not a particularly powerful one. Hell you can't even use it to hunt feral hogs around here effectively unless you want to get gored. You need a regular hunting rifle that uses more powerful rounds for that. That 5.56 is just going to mostly piss off the hogs. Ask any hunter around here. You can take some smaller deer with it I guess, and definitely smaller animals, but it just isn't that effective for bigger game or game with thicker bones.

About the only rifle really weaker than the 5.56 in terms of "power" that I still use in quotes because it is such a subjective term, would be something like a ruger 10/22 which fires .22lr ammo.

I own and use many guns and rifles. I just find the media FUD about military styled rifles to be annoying. Especially when people like you eat up said FUD like gospel.

I agree, the media sometimes have a tendency to somewhat misdescribe things. Especially when it will mean they get more clicks/views/news-paper-purchases etc.

I would have thought a hand gun makes more sense, for shooting inside a home. The bigger the gun is, e.g. a rifle, the more issues you might have because of restricted room and obstacles in homes.

I guess/speculate that because military guns are specifically designed to attack humans. They don't necessarily have the extra power/penetration needed to hunt bigger animals.

 

[bshole]

.

Another reason the AR-15 is a popular choice for home use and ownership, besides the fun customizations one can do to it, is because the rifle is a bit UNDER POWERED with the small caliber bullet. The shape and size make it tumble very easily once it hits a target which makes it far less likely to penetrate walls in a house when a shot is missed. Most handguns are FAR more powerful, use bigger caliber bullets, and are more like to go through walls to potentially hit things on the other side of said wall. Shotguns that use decent size pellets or slugs that can actually kill also have this problem.
.

Your assertion may be flawed. I looked up the typical weight and speed of the round for a .45 and a .223 and used an online calculator to compute energy for each. See below. Based on that, the ar15 is 3 times more powerful than a .45 caliber handgun. It is my understanding that most handguns in circulation today are .45 or smaller.

e =mv2

typical .45 handgun - 950fps, 20 gm - 834 joules
ar15 - 2800 fps, 9 gm - 3260 joules

http://www.weirath.com/joule/

In that same post, you said:

WOW, another person that has no clue about guns trying to make a point.

 

[Paladin3]

Your assertion may be flawed. I looked up the typical weight and speed of the round for a .45 and a .223 and used an online calculator to compute energy for each. See below. Based on that, the ar15 is 3 times more powerful than a .45 caliber handgun. It is my understanding that most handguns in circulation today are .45 or smaller.

e =mv2

typical .45 handgun - 950fps, 20 gm - 834 joules
ar15 - 2800 fps, 9 gm - 3260 joules

http://www.weirath.com/joule/

In that same post, you said:

We can't compare energy alone if we don't take into account the weight and design of the bullet.

The 5.56/.223 bullet commonly weighs in at 55 grains.
The .45 auto (a phenomenal man stopper) bullet commonly weighs in around 240 grains or more than 4x as heavy.

There is lots of debate on weather a fast moving light weight bullet or slower moving heavier bullet is better. It all depends on what you are using the bullet for.

 

[bshole]

We can't compare energy alone if we don't take into account the weight and design of the bullet.

The 5.56/.223 bullet commonly weighs in at 55 grains.
The .45 auto (a phenomenal man stopper) bullet commonly weighs in around 240 grains or more than 4x as heavy.

There is lots of debate on weather a fast moving light weight bullet or slower moving heavier bullet is better. It all depends on what you are using the bullet for.

Really? That is a MASSIVE difference in energy. Based on the physics and what trauma surgeons have stated, I am skeptical that handguns can rival an AR15 in damage.

Compare the damage an AR-15 and a 9mm handgun can do to the human body: “One looks like a grenade went off in there,” says Peter Rhee, a trauma surgeon at the University of Arizona. “The other looks like a bad knife cut.”

The AR-15 is America’s most popular rifle. It has also been the weapon of choice in mass shootings from Sandy Hook to Aurora to San Bernardino. In Orlando this past week, the shooter used a Sig Sauer MCX, an AR-15 style rifle originally developed for special ops, to kill 49 people in the Pulse nightclub.

The bullet from a handgun is—as absurd as it may sound—slow compared to that from an AR-15. It can be stopped by the thick bone of the upper leg. It might pass through the body, only to become lodged in skin, which is surprisingly elastic.

The bullet from an AR-15 does an entirely different kind of violence to the human body. It’s relatively small, but it leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. It has so much energy that it can disintegrate three inches of leg bone. “It would just turn it to dust,” says Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio. If it hits the liver, “the liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor.” And the exit wound can be a nasty, jagged hole the size of an orange.

https://www.wired.com/2016/06/ar-15-can-human-body/

 

[OutHouse]

that's a ship mounted weapon as I recall and I think it's using a gattling gun style barrel arrangement where a barrel rotates into position for each shot. I suspect that motion of the barrels through the air cools them somewhat (depending on ambient temperature)
If I'm connecting the weapon I'm thinking of to the name correctly.


________________

It is water cooled, it has its own internal de-ionized water circuit, which is cooled using sea water.

 

[OutHouse]

The 5.56/.223 is a very small caliber bullet that creates it's destructive energy via extreme velocity rather than through size and weight. Barriers cause the lightweight high velocity bullet to tumble, thus slowing it substantially. Thereby making ineffective over much distance after emerging from the barrier. The reason it is effective against body armor is the high velocity cuts through and the nice soft squishy bits are directly behind that, tumbling doesn't matter once it's already entered the target, it can arguably cause more damage once tumbling in the body.

Either way, unless we find out the guy lured them into his house someway, this was a good shoot, three less pieces of shit to potentially do this to someone else. If you enter someone's HOME with ill intent you absolutely deserve to be shot and killed. Even if you are in the process of retreating, because of course you'll be retreating after your stupid ass realizes you've brought a knife to a gun fight.

No need for the lecture, I have thousands of hours with shooting this ammo in various military weapons systems. I'm very aware of its ballistics.

 

[Sheep221]

So happy the three home invaders are dead, no need to pay for the POS incarceration. Unfortunately the woman in the car didn't also venture in, we could just be rid of the scum and that's that. 3 out of 4 ain't bad...

Half of posts in this thread are basically celebrating someone less fortunate died and praising some fucktard with 50 IQ for mass-murder of three teens. Where do you people are becoming so full of shit seriously?

 

[interchange]

Half of posts in this thread are basically celebrating someone less fortunate died and praising some fucktard with 50 IQ for mass-murder of three teens. Where do you people are becoming so full of shit seriously?

I think people inside are feeling threatened, judged, invalidated, needing to be automatically suspicious of the decency of the persons they encounter.

 

[Bird222]

Actually, they didn't learn anything, because now they're dead. Otherwise, I agree with the comments.

They learned during those few seconds/moments when they were still alive.

 

[shortylickens]

Half of posts in this thread are basically celebrating someone less fortunate died and praising some fucktard with 50 IQ for mass-murder of three teens. Where do you people are becoming so full of shit seriously?

If you think defending your home is mass-murder then YOU are the one I truly pity.