Originally posted by: five40
Originally posted by: sirjonk
Originally posted by: five40
"Our universe is thought to have begun as an infinitesimally small, infinitely hot, infinitely dense, something - a singularity. Where did it come from? We don't know. Why did it appear? We don't know."
What we know is as true as flying spaghetti monsters. What's the point of being such a zealot when we really don't know?
your argument seems to boil down to:
Science cannot explain everything about the creation of the universe, therefore the god hypothesis is just as good an explanation as anything science can come up with.
Is that a fair summary?
More or less yes. Scientist can't prove that matter just appeared out of no where and theologists can't prove God appeared out of no where. I don't see the point of getting all puffed and mad over something that might never be proven. The whole "Let's hate Ben Stein because he thinks different" is what is really stupid to me.
Originally posted by: five40
What we know of God = what we know of flying spaghetti monsters. = what we know of singularities and where they came from
Yes I fully support scientific research, observation and discovery as well, however I don't support calling Ben Stein an idiot for saying evolution could be wrong.
Originally posted by: five40
Originally posted by: sirjonk
Originally posted by: five40
"Our universe is thought to have begun as an infinitesimally small, infinitely hot, infinitely dense, something - a singularity. Where did it come from? We don't know. Why did it appear? We don't know."
What we know is as true as flying spaghetti monsters. What's the point of being such a zealot when we really don't know?
your argument seems to boil down to:
Science cannot explain everything about the creation of the universe, therefore the god hypothesis is just as good an explanation as anything science can come up with.
Is that a fair summary?
More or less yes. Scientist can't prove that matter just appeared out of no where and theologists can't prove God appeared out of no where. I don't see the point of getting all puffed and mad over something that might never be proven. The whole "Let's hate Ben Stein because he thinks different" is what is really stupid to me.
Originally posted by: Mr Pepper
Chuck Darwin, the pope and a platypus walk into a bar...
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: five40
Originally posted by: sirjonk
Originally posted by: five40
"Our universe is thought to have begun as an infinitesimally small, infinitely hot, infinitely dense, something - a singularity. Where did it come from? We don't know. Why did it appear? We don't know."
What we know is as true as flying spaghetti monsters. What's the point of being such a zealot when we really don't know?
your argument seems to boil down to:
Science cannot explain everything about the creation of the universe, therefore the god hypothesis is just as good an explanation as anything science can come up with.
Is that a fair summary?
More or less yes. Scientist can't prove that matter just appeared out of no where and theologists can't prove God appeared out of no where. I don't see the point of getting all puffed and mad over something that might never be proven. The whole "Let's hate Ben Stein because he thinks different" is what is really stupid to me.
Wait a second. You blast science because it cannot explain where the singularity came from that became our universe, but you're okay with the fact that theologists can't explain where god came from? See the logical inconsistency? If you're going to question where the matter came from to create the universe, then I'm going to question where god came from to create the universe. After all, genesis dose begin with the phrase "In the beginning..." so what happened before that?
Neither science nor theology can explain anything beyond what's in front of us now and, let's be honest, over the past few hundred years science has been doing a much better job at it than theology.
Originally posted by: Mr Pepper
Maybe we are getting on to something here. If ID is not science, and therefore not fit for the classroom. Are we so sure evolution does not fall by the same standard of scrutiny?
I would encourage those who are willing to hear reason to take a look at this article.
Originally posted by: five40
Where did I blast science? Weren't both theologists and scientists in the same sentence saying both can't prove things? And yes science has explained more in the last hundred years, but theology doesn't try and prove things, that's the job of scientists. Theology is believe it or not. In any case I'm a programmer so I'm very scientific but I just think it's wrong to bash people for thinking different. It never hurts to try and think outside of the box and play devils advocate.
Originally posted by: punchkin
Originally posted by: Mr Pepper
Maybe we are getting on to something here. If ID is not science, and therefore not fit for the classroom. Are we so sure evolution does not fall by the same standard of scrutiny?
I would encourage those who are willing to hear reason to take a look at this article.
Heh heh. Who could argue with the "Institute for Creation Research"?
Originally posted by: SphinxnihpS
We are all the idiots in here. We come and present facts and argue passionately with logic, and when some neandrathal comes in and tells us how happy he is to be completely ignorant we get all upset.
This debate upsets me.
I am upset that at least 75% of the people that inhabit my country are capable of being so irrational. despite having educations and money.
I am upset that a 2000 year old book has more power over science than one written 10 years ago.
I am upset that these people have measures of control in my life through law.
I am upset that my parents can be included in my list of retards.
I am upset that I know more about your religion than you do, and based on your irrationality, probably ever could. How's this one for you? If you are a true Christian, you are god. There is no other god but you. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think I am more of a Christian than any one I have ever met that calls themselves one.
Mostly I am upset about this fact: The 1940's were the height of scientific America (by population percentage); since then we have declined. Science has advanced tremendously since then, but we have psycic hotlines, and Oprah talking to millions of people everyday about willing themselves money.
If there's a heaven, god is going to pissed off about how you have wasted your brains. The Bible probably says something about that too. Might want to check.
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Originally posted by: SphinxnihpS
We are all the idiots in here. We come and present facts and argue passionately with logic, and when some neandrathal comes in and tells us how happy he is to be completely ignorant we get all upset.
This debate upsets me.
I am upset that at least 75% of the people that inhabit my country are capable of being so irrational. despite having educations and money.
I am upset that a 2000 year old book has more power over science than one written 10 years ago.
I am upset that these people have measures of control in my life through law.
I am upset that my parents can be included in my list of retards.
I am upset that I know more about your religion than you do, and based on your irrationality, probably ever could. How's this one for you? If you are a true Christian, you are god. There is no other god but you. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think I am more of a Christian than any one I have ever met that calls themselves one.
Mostly I am upset about this fact: The 1940's were the height of scientific America (by population percentage); since then we have declined. Science has advanced tremendously since then, but we have psycic hotlines, and Oprah talking to millions of people everyday about willing themselves money.
If there's a heaven, god is going to pissed off about how you have wasted your brains. The Bible probably says something about that too. Might want to check.
You need to come live in Australia, you'd love it.
I work at a company with 250+ employees. Only 2 out of them openly admit to beliving in Jesus. And everyone thinks they're idiots.
They're not given any difficult work. People that stupid to believe a book written 2000 years ago just have to be of low intelligence.
Even as a militant atheist I have no problem with agnostics, or even people that beleive in god. If you say, "I think the big bang was created by God", it's not totally unresonable, or idiotic. Its when people say "I totally believe a virgin gave birth to the some of god" that you start thinking, this person needs to be in a mental institution.
Unfortunately, our country has been left behind by Western civilization, soon will be left behind by Eastern civilization. At least we're still ahead of the Middle Easterners.
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Originally posted by: SphinxnihpS
We are all the idiots in here. We come and present facts and argue passionately with logic, and when some neandrathal comes in and tells us how happy he is to be completely ignorant we get all upset.
This debate upsets me.
I am upset that at least 75% of the people that inhabit my country are capable of being so irrational. despite having educations and money.
I am upset that a 2000 year old book has more power over science than one written 10 years ago.
I am upset that these people have measures of control in my life through law.
I am upset that my parents can be included in my list of retards.
I am upset that I know more about your religion than you do, and based on your irrationality, probably ever could. How's this one for you? If you are a true Christian, you are god. There is no other god but you. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think I am more of a Christian than any one I have ever met that calls themselves one.
Mostly I am upset about this fact: The 1940's were the height of scientific America (by population percentage); since then we have declined. Science has advanced tremendously since then, but we have psycic hotlines, and Oprah talking to millions of people everyday about willing themselves money.
If there's a heaven, god is going to pissed off about how you have wasted your brains. The Bible probably says something about that too. Might want to check.
You need to come live in Australia, you'd love it.
I work at a company with 250+ employees. Only 2 out of them openly admit to beliving in Jesus. And everyone thinks they're idiots.
They're not given any difficult work. People that stupid to believe a book written 2000 years ago just have to be of low intelligence.
Even as a militant atheist I have no problem with agnostics, or even people that beleive in god. If you say, "I think the big bang was created by God", it's not totally unresonable, or idiotic. Its when people say "I totally believe a virgin gave birth to the son of god" that you start thinking, this person needs to be in a mental institution.
Originally posted by: five40
Where did I blast science? Weren't both theologists and scientists in the same sentence saying both can't prove things? And yes science has explained more in the last hundred years, but theology doesn't try and prove things, that's the job of scientists. Theology is believe it or not. In any case I'm a programmer so I'm very scientific but I just think it's wrong to bash people for thinking different. It never hurts to try and think outside of the box and play devils advocate.
Originally posted by: kranky
I don't know if Ben Stein is right or wrong, but I do know that he has done a lot more research on the topic than any of those in this thread who are using their "jump to conclusions" mat.
Originally posted by: punchkin
Science can prove things. Religion cannot. It is not bashing someone for thinking differently to prevent them from bringing their religion into scientific discussions.
"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Originally posted by: five40
Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt
Evolution has nothing to do with the cosmology. Incidentally, the evidence points to the existence of a singularity in our distant past, some 13 to 15 billion years ago. There isn't any similar evidence that points to the existence of any gods. Trying to put them on the same evidential level is, frankly, ignorant.
And where did the singularity come from? Why think 9 steps when there is still 10 steps?
Where did God come from?
Originally posted by: DrPizza
In response to Mr Pepper:
I don't know why one has to be an atheist to accept evolution as having ample evidence. Are you claiming that Pope John Paul and Pope Pious (##?) were atheists? At least the Catholics accept the Big Bang Theory as well. Apparently they've learned from past mistakes (sun is the center) that they look like fools when they ignore overwhelming evidence. Now the only ones who look like fools are in the United States (the ID movement seems to be predominantly in the US.)
For what it's worth, an analogy:
If the creation of man is represented by getting a strike in bowling, then the God of you ID people keeps his hand on the ball all the way down the alley. The Catholic God let go of the ball at the moment of the Big Bang. Seems to me that one of those two Gods is inferior.
Stop and think about that for a moment. If God is all-powerful, then why does he need to guide evolution rather than just make the conditions for it possible? (fine-tuned universe)
(I'm not necessarily endorsing the point of view of the fine-tuned universe proves the existence of God. His existence cannot be proven and is an act of faith. Anything else is in the realm of science, not explanations of 2000 year old books written at a time when no one could have understood even a small fraction of what we now know of the universe.)
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: DrPizza
In response to Mr Pepper:
I don't know why one has to be an atheist to accept evolution as having ample evidence. Are you claiming that Pope John Paul and Pope Pious (##?) were atheists? At least the Catholics accept the Big Bang Theory as well. Apparently they've learned from past mistakes (sun is the center) that they look like fools when they ignore overwhelming evidence. Now the only ones who look like fools are in the United States (the ID movement seems to be predominantly in the US.)
For what it's worth, an analogy:
If the creation of man is represented by getting a strike in bowling, then the God of you ID people keeps his hand on the ball all the way down the alley. The Catholic God let go of the ball at the moment of the Big Bang. Seems to me that one of those two Gods is inferior.
Stop and think about that for a moment. If God is all-powerful, then why does he need to guide evolution rather than just make the conditions for it possible? (fine-tuned universe)
(I'm not necessarily endorsing the point of view of the fine-tuned universe proves the existence of God. His existence cannot be proven and is an act of faith. Anything else is in the realm of science, not explanations of 2000 year old books written at a time when no one could have understood even a small fraction of what we now know of the universe.)
Exactly, you can't make science fit into what is written in the bible nor can you expect scientists to take seriously the theories that creationists put forth in front of the scientific community because there is no evidence to back up their claims.
I don't understand why this line of thought was brought to the forefront of public debate in the first place. It would be the same as someone advocating rewriting history books to say that the Earth is flat. Or that the Earth is the center of the universe.
Who are these people who want to teach our children to be idiots? I'd like to smack every one of them in the head with a large science book. I won't allow my son to be taught this creationism nonsense.
Who are these people who want to teach our children to be idiots? I'd like to smack every one of them in the head with a large science book. I won't allow my son to be taught this creationism nonsense.