Time to Build - Help Me Decide

[mfenn]

Well for one I really don't like the Black and Gold color scheme.

There is the SupremeFX sound design, better OC tweaking capabilities, SSD Secure Erase through the BIOS, Music PnP allowing me to stream audio directly from a device through the mic jack to my speakers without turning on the system, superior noise reduction for VoIP (and I do a lot of VoIp even when at home), 802.11ac wireless to go with my 802.11ac wireless router, and better power design and parts.

Wow, you really are the perfect ASUS customer! :awe: Let's run down your list shall we?

- The SupremeFX is still an ALC1150, just like the Deluxe. That means it's good, but nothing terribly special. If you have a sound setup good enough to hear the difference in OP-AMPs between the two, you'd be better off investing in a real DAC.
- Not sure what you mean here, the Deluxe BIOS has pretty much every overclocking feature out there.
- You can secure erase SSDs with any number of free utilities. You're not going to be doing it so often than you need it in the BIOS
- I don't see how Music PnP is useful at all. You're buying a $240 mobo to use as an ... audio cable?
- Rule number microphone gain issues: Buy A Better Microphone. Then you won't have to jack the gain up so much that you need noise cancelling.
- Good thing the Deluxe has 802.11ac as well.
- The Deluxe has a very good power delivery subsystem, practically the same as the MVII without the branding. At any rate, power delivery is NOT the problem for Haswell in an ITX case (or any case really), it's cooling.

I can kind of see the audio argument, but the issue is that fancy software never makes up for getting good quality analog components (speakers, mics). Your money is better spent there. I think the general theme here is that you shouldn't believe everything that a marketing dept throws at you. Their job is to come up with nice-sounding features (pun intended) that cost very little to implement and sound cool. Actual real-world usefulness is not even on the list.

Oh and the Deluxe actually has Bluetooth as well according to ASUS, it just doesn't show up on Newegg's description.

There is also the fact that I will be taking this build to LAN Parties. I go to two major ones (and a dozen minor local ones) and if you've ever been to one then you know that people always want to know what you are using in your build. ROG is respected and it is something to brag about when showing off your system. There is a certain "Rule of Cool" to be had at such events.

I guess if your definition of "cool" is "hey lookie, I spent more money than you", then sure. You might impress the scrubs, but people who are actually in the know will be snickering behind your back at how much you overpaid.

 

[TY-1]

Wow, you really are the perfect ASUS customer! :awe: Let's run down your list shall we?

- The SupremeFX is still an ALC1150, just like the Deluxe. That means it's good, but nothing terribly special. If you have a sound setup good enough to hear the difference in OP-AMPs between the two, you'd be better off investing in a real DAC.
- Not sure what you mean here, the Deluxe BIOS has pretty much every overclocking feature out there.
- You can secure erase SSDs with any number of free utilities. You're not going to be doing it so often than you need it in the BIOS
- I don't see how Music PnP is useful at all. You're buying a $240 mobo to use as an ... audio cable?
- Rule number microphone gain issues: Buy A Better Microphone. Then you won't have to jack the gain up so much that you need noise cancelling.
- Good thing the Deluxe has 802.11ac as well.
- The Deluxe has a very good power delivery subsystem, practically the same as the MVII without the branding. At any rate, power delivery is NOT the problem for Haswell in an ITX case (or any case really), it's cooling.

I can kind of see the audio argument, but the issue is that fancy software never makes up for getting good quality analog components (speakers, mics). Your money is better spent there. I think the general theme here is that you shouldn't believe everything that a marketing dept throws at you. Their job is to come up with nice-sounding features (pun intended) that cost very little to implement and sound cool. Actual real-world usefulness is not even on the list.

Oh and the Deluxe actually has Bluetooth as well according to ASUS, it just doesn't show up on Newegg's description.

Okay, okay...jeez, you're more tenacious than a Tennessee tick you know that?

I guess if your definition of "cool" is "hey lookie, I spent more money than you", then sure. You might impress the scrubs, but people who are actually in the know will be snickering behind your back at how much you overpaid.

That sounds pretty cynical. I don't think I've ever heard a single veteran builder disparage the ROG series before; most have nothing but positive things to say about them, though the Extreme models outside a major water cooling rig do get an eye-roll I've found.

Still....:\

Okay, you've convinced me on the merits of the Asus Z87I-Deluxe, even if the Gold coloring is ugly looking.

Edit: Crud, the combo deal for the Asus Z87I-Deluxe + Intel i7-4770K on Newegg is gone.

 

[Termie]

TY-1, don't take it personally. mfenn just doesn't like to have fun!

Honestly, the issue for me is buying a ROG board in the miniITX format. You'll be inherently limited in how aggressively you tune it and expand it by the form factor, so I'd save a ROG board for a bigger system.

 

[TY-1]

TY-1, don't take it personally. mfenn just doesn't like to have fun!

Oh, I don't take it personally. Harsh honesty is sometimes the best honesty.

Honestly, the issue for me is buying a ROG board in the miniITX format. You'll be inherently limited in how aggressively you tune it and expand it by the form factor, so I'd save a ROG board for a bigger system.

See, my reasoning was similar but reached a different conclusion. I figured that since I was going to build Mini-ITX, which disallows for certain expansions, I should aim for the best quality parts especially since I don't do a lot of upgrading of components in my personal rigs unless a component wears out or it is absolutely necessary due to performance reasons. It is one of the reasons why I am okay with waiting on the GPU until I see what AMD has in-store with Hawaii considering that is not far away now.

 

[mfenn]

Okay, okay...jeez, you're more tenacious than a Tennessee tick you know that?

So I've been told. :awe: Thanks for taking it all with good humor.

Edit: Crud, the combo deal for the Asus Z87I-Deluxe + Intel i7-4770K on Newegg is gone.

That's a damn shame.

 

[Termie]

You could always get the ASRock combo: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboD...=Combo.1392853

 

[Torn Mind]

I suspect mfenn's terse style is due to the fact that he doesn't have much time on his hands and hence needs to get through all the threads fast.

 

[TY-1]

So after seeing people make recommendations and give build advice I've revised my parts list.

Mini-ITX Build

CPU: Intel i5-4670K - $229.99
Cooler: Corsair H80i - $79.99
Mobo: ASUS Z87I-Deluxe - $184.67
RAM: G.Skill Ripjaws X 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3-1866Hz - $58.65
SSD : Samsung 840 EVO 250GB - $178.99
HHD : Seagate Momentus XT 750GB Hybrid - $0.00 (Already Own)
GPU: MSI GTX780 - $669.99
Case: Bitfenix Prodigy Black - $59.99 (Purchased)
Optical Drive: ASUS Blu-ray Reader - $56.23
PSU: SeaSonic G 550W 80+ Gold - $79.99

Build Total: $1598.49

Monitor Budget - $300-600 (Need recommendations on Monitors)

Overall Total: $2100-$2200

Okay, so I've gone down from the i7-4770K to the i5-4670K because after looking through all of my programs and plans for what this computer will be used for I decided that the i7 is only going to benefit me in two instances and not by much. The i5-4670K will work for what i need I just won't be running as fast when I have the stat software running and I decide to do some media watching. Unless the i7-4770K goes on sale for Labor Day I'll probably stick to the i5-4670K.

I actually got my Bitfenix Prodigy from Newegg today and checked it. The case is great, but I did find that I can't mount the NZXT Kraken X40 in the front like I was hoping (due to not enough clearance between the optical drive bay and the top mounting holes for the 140mm rad). I'm back to the Corsair H80i, unless I want to mount the Kraken X40 in the Exhaust or try and mount it in the front in a modified position using rubber washers to try and hold the screw in the hexagonal screen holes.

I've dropped down to the ASUS Z87I-Deluxe instead of the ASUS ROG Impact. Mfenn really made his case (quite stubborn he is) and the Deluxe has enough of the features that I was looking for that I'm okay with the switch. There are a board from MSI and one from Asrock that are cheaper, but lack some of the features of the Asus board. Also, I've always been a little iffy on the build quality of some of Asrock's boards in the past.

I've switched the PSU down to a SeaSonic 550W 80+ Gold from the SeaSonic 660W 80+ Platinum that I had originally thought to use. 550W should be enough power for my needs and it is slightly smaller in size than the 660W so it will be a little easier to put into the Prodigy.

I'm debating on dropping the Samsung 840 EVO for a regular Samsung 840 as their is a combo deal for the Samsung 840 with an i5-4670K on Newegg that would lower my cost by $14.00 but I'm hesitant after seeing the reviews for the EVO. It really is a quicker drive than the older 840, though not as quick as the 840 Pro.

The MSI GTX780 is still acting as a placeholder while I wait to see what AMD has cooking up with Hawaii. I have no problem waiting for their debut even on 9/23/13 and cards most likely becoming available in October. I'm not much of a fanboy for either side and just want the best high-end GPU for my money.

I definitely need some serious advice and recommendations for a new monitor. I was originally thinking of going with the 120Hz 24" BenQ XL2420T which is on sale at Newegg for $270.00 until 8/28/13 but then people began pointing out 144Hz monitors and even 1440p IPS Monitors with great Response Times. I don't think I know enough about monitors right now to decide what would be best for my needs so I really need some help here. The monitor will be used for working, gaming, and media viewing. So far this is what I've got for consideration.

120Hz Monitors
BenQ XL2420T - 24" 120Hz : $270.00 - $299.99
BenQ XL2720T - 27" 120Hz : $405.00
ASUS VG278H - 27" 120HZ : $499.99

144Hz Monitors
ASUS VG248GE - 24" 144Hz : $250.52
ASUS VG278HE - 27" 144Hz : $369.99

IPS Monitors
ASUS PB278Q - 27" 2560 x 1440 : $553.99

Any and all recommendations are appreciated.

 

[Essence_of_War]

I always start here for any discussion of monitors:
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews_index.htm

The Asus 2560x1440 is has a pretty reasonable response time. It's right around 1 frame, and unless you're the twitchiest person who ever did twitch I think it'd be fine. I'm a little leery of the (somewhat slow) PWM for the backlight, some people report that PWM causes a weird looking flicker, and if you're sensitive to it, that could be incredibly irritating. Notably, the dell u2713hm does not use PWM, but has slightly worse response times.

TFT Central reviews both, and I'd recommend checking out both reviews. The bigger question is probably "can you get the FPS you'd like at the settings you'd enjoy?" on the hi-res ips panel? Have you checked benches?

 

[mfenn]

Nice changes on the computer side of things! :thumbsup:

As for the monitor, I think it comes down to what's more important to you?

- If you want gaming performance/fluidity, then go for one of the high refresh rate displays. The VG248GE seems like the best deal to me.
- If you want desktop real estate and color accuracy, then go for the 2560x1440 option.

My personal choice would be the 27" 1440p, but I can see a totally valid argument for the other side.

 

[TY-1]

Okay, so I was looking back over my Bitfenix Prodigy case, checking out all the features and double checking measurements, when I suddenly had an epiphany. I had previously stated that I was going to have to go with the Corsair H80i instead of the NZXT Kraken X40 because the 140mm mounting on the front was too close to the optical drive cage for the Kraken's rad to fit. However, as I was checking over the fan mounting spots it suddenly hit me, rotate the rad 90 degrees. There's plenty of room horizontally around the mounting points for the 140mm fan so if I can't fit the rad in vertically because the built in reservoirs would hit the optical cage then I can just rotate the rad so that the reservoirs and hoses are now on the left/right of the mount instead of being top/bottom.

Does that sound feasible to anyone else? I don't think there would be an issue with coolant flow from the rad to the pump because of it. :hmm:

I'm still trying to make a decision on a monitor, so if anyone has any advice or recommendations please let me know.

 

[mfenn]

Rotate around which axis?

 

[TY-1]

Rotate around which axis?

If I'm looking directly at the mounting holes from outside the case at the front, I would be looking at the depth of the case. So I would be rotating on the width of the case. :hmm:

Hmm, I don't feel like I'm explaining this well.

Okay, so if I was mounting the fans and rad like normal, flush to the mounting points, I would just rotate it on the center point, going to the left or right 90 degrees. It would still be flush to the mount are, but with the reservoir and tube attachment area pointing towards the side panels instead of the top and bottom panel.

So, if mounting flush to the front 140mm mount are on the face of the Prodigy normally would be:

reservoir

side rad side

tube area
​

Like this:

It would then go to being still flush but rotated on the face like so:

side

reservoir rad tube area

side
​

Like this

Does that make sense now?

Do you think that would work?

Also, is the X40 better than the H80i? I've checked numerous reviews and the two seem to trade blows pretty evenly. The only real points of contention seem to be the fan/pump control software and the loud fan on the X40. Having handled and X40 in a build for a guy back in June I can say that the packaged fan can get pretty loud when cranked to high, so I would want to get better 140mm fans for it...probably Noctuas.

 

[TY-1]

So, I've been doing some more parts buying and thought I should post my latest revised list.

Mini-ITX Build

CPU + RAM Combo: Intel i5-4670K + Crucial Ballistix Sport 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3-1600 - $244.98(Purchased)
Cooler: NZXT Kraken X40 - $82.99
Mobo: ASUS Z87I-Deluxe - $175.98 (Purchased)
SSD : Samsung 840 EVO 250GB - $176.99 (Purchased)
HHD : Seagate Momentus XT 750GB Hybrid - $0.00 (Already Own)
GPU: MSI GTX780 - $669.99
Case: Bitfenix Prodigy Black - $59.99 (Purchased)
Optical Drive: ASUS Blu-ray Reader - $56.23 (Purchased)
PSU: SeaSonic G 550W 80+ Gold - $79.99 (Purchased)

Total: $1547.14

I saved some money with combo deals and some coupon codes that I found. I switched out the original G.Skill Ram for the Crucial Ballistix due to the savings form the Combo Deal which dropped the price nicely. I've switched back to the NZXT Kraken X40 for the moment because it is cheaper than the Corsair H80i and the two are pretty close when it comes to cooling. The GTX780 is merely a placeholder until I see what AMD has to offer with Hawaii towards the end of September.

I'm still trying to decide upon a monitor for gaming and HD media viewing, so any help there is appreciated.

 

[mfenn]

So rotating it along the same axis that the fan would normally spin? I don't see a problem with that.

EDIT: What you've bought looks fine to me.

 

[TY-1]

So rotating it along the same axis that the fan would normally spin? I don't see a problem with that.

EDIT: What you've bought looks fine to me.

I thought it would be but just wanted to get a second opinion to ease my mind.

I still need to figure out which monitor to buy. Part of me says that I am making selecting a monitor far too hard for myself, but that part gets shouted down by the other parts of me that want the best bang for their buck considering that I'm probably going to be keeping and using this monitor for at least the next 5+ years.

 

[mfenn]

In terms of the monitor, I think the reason that you're having a hard time is that you haven't answered the fundamental question yet. That is, is gaming or image quality and desktop space more important?

 

[TY-1]

In terms of the monitor, I think the reason that you're having a hard time is that you haven't answered the fundamental question yet. That is, is gaming or image quality and desktop space more important?

Well for desktop space I have plenty for a 27" or 24" monitor, though I will be at most viewing said monitor from 6' away if I back my chair all the way up to the bookcase on the other side of my office. I'll be gaming a good deal on it, but nothing like professionally. I play a rather eclectic set of games, from the Assassin's Creed Franchise to Borderlands 2 to Total War Shogun 2 to Witcher 2. I have plenty of Blu-rays to watch and only my laptop (5 years old and only a 16" screen) to watch them on now since the blu-ray player I had for my TV stopped working about 2 months ago and I have been mainly using Netflix with my TV since.

I want something that is going to be for me to game on but at the same time will look good if/when I watch movies and steam media on it. The Graphic Forum guys keep pointing me towards the Korean imports, but I don't feel entirely comfortable importing a monitor (questions of support should it be damaged and import taxes come to mind).

 

[mfenn]

By desktop space, I was referring to logical desktop space rather than physical desktop space. In other words, you can fit more windows on a 2560x1440 screen than you can on a 1920x1080 screen.

 

[TY-1]

By desktop space, I was referring to logical desktop space rather than physical desktop space. In other words, you can fit more windows on a 2560x1440 screen than you can on a 1920x1080 screen.

Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding. Honestly, I don't think about desktop space in such terms much since I started using Windows 7 right after it launched. I find myself just opening a program window and moving it over to one side or the other of the screen to have it "snap" into place and take up half of the screen while I do the same for another program window (ie. Microsoft Word and Firefox when I am researching).

 

[mfenn]

It sounds like you're learning towards the 1080p gaming monitors then. IMHO, the ASUS VG248QE at $240 AP is the best combo of price and performance.

 

[TY-1]

It sounds like you're learning towards the 1080p gaming monitors then. IMHO, the ASUS VG248QE at $240 AP is the best combo of price and performance.

A number of users have mentioned that the ASUS VG248QE has color issues, a red tint to the screen, black crush, and doesn't calibrate well. Since it is a TN panel it also has poorer viewing angles.

I'm looking into IPS, PLS, and AMVA monitors right now since I do enjoy good color in my displays. Also, I'm not a hardcore FPS player so I don't think I necessarily need or would notice a 120Hz or 140Hz refresh rate though I would probably notice bad colors and black crush. Problem is that there are simply so many monitors to choose from and so many reviews to read that it is hard to narrow down the selection. Many users have told me to look at Korean monitors, but the idea of importing a monitor and having to pay import duties while also having questionable warranty support should the monitor not perform correctly or be damaged deters me from such options. I'd prefer a monitor that comes from a reputable source that has good warranty support should something be wrong, especially if I'm paying $250-$550 for the monitor, and has good media viewing capabilities with the good gaming qualities.

 

[Essence_of_War]

With all those considerations, it sounds like what you're looking for is an ultrasharp. The warranty is excellent, the build quality is high.

As I mentioned above, I'm leery of the PWM backlight dimming in the Asus IPS panel you were looking at. You should be able to get a Dell u2713hm for almost identical price if you wait to pounce on a good deal, and/or are willing to pick up an amazon warehouse deal.

 

[TY-1]

With all those considerations, it sounds like what you're looking for is an ultrasharp. The warranty is excellent, the build quality is high.

As I mentioned above, I'm leery of the PWM backlight dimming in the Asus IPS panel you were looking at. You should be able to get a Dell u2713hm for almost identical price if you wait to pounce on a good deal, and/or are willing to pick up an amazon warehouse deal.

I've looked at the Dell U2713HM, as well as a few of Dell's Ultrasharp 24" monitors. I was a little concerned by the 8ms GTG, but most reviews seem to say that they are great monitors despite that.

 

[Essence_of_War]

I would ignore the stated GTG and look more carefully into what people like TFTCentral think the real total lag looks like. The 2713hm is on the high side, TFTcentral measures total lag ~20ms, or between 1 and 2 frames at 60Hz refresh.

If you think that will make a big difference to you, I'd take a look at the HP zr2740w. Total lag is reportedly ~3.5ms. Comparable to the newer, and much more expensive, Dell 3014 in its game mode.