Time to start this: discussion of who should win the presidency in 2012

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
This is to try to have a discussion of the issues affecting who should be elected.

My current position is that I think our choices are 'not good' and 'disaster'. We could use a progressive candidate; there's going to be a token one probably, but that's not enough.

This is about who should win, and that basically means Obama or any of the Republicans running - practically IMO it's probably Romney or Perry.

I'll pick five issues I think are important and how each affects the pick:

1. US Democracy owned by the corporatocracy. Can't think of a more important issue.

On it, on a scale of 1 to 10, I'm inclined to most of the Republicans 2 and Obama 2.5.

The tea party faction (we really shouldn't call it a 'party', it's a faction of the Republican party de facto however much they protest that, no more a party than the progressive wing of Democrats) is actually mixed to review on this. They basically endorse a terrible pro-wealth ideology and were born from a Wall Street whine about the poor, get funding from the most corrupt right-wing sources and serve their interests (kill the EPA!), but they do have a strain opposed to corporate corruption, an independence.

They are utterly nuts, but that's not the issue here; their votes against TARP, their desire to not raise the debt ceiling, are terrible but not a corporate sellout position.

Obama is a worse collector of Wall Street fund than even the Republican candidates, which would make his score lower than theirs, but as a Democrat trying to appeal occasionally to progressives, he supports some very slim measures and doesn't push as hard as Republicans on some, such as the slightly useful consumer protection agency (Republicans opposed) and Wall Street reform bill (slightly useful, Republicans opposed). That pushes him a little above them.

2. Foreign policy

Obama gives decent speech. If that phrasing sounds awkward, similar to 'gives good head', it's not accidental, comparing how he goes for 'feel good' oral over policy.

Compared to Bush, he has mixed results. He doesn't have a 'rule the world' agenda like Bush put in power by appointing the neocons and letting them do what they like for years, but he does have a lack of leadership or progressive/American values in reforming much Bush did. On giving lip service to international relations he's a lot better, close to historical presidents. On war, he's better, not pursuing a big new agenda - say, war with Iran. On detainee policies, secret prisons and such - he's similar to worse. He says he ended torture; but targeted assassinations, new precedents for killing even American civilians drone strikes, are all up. Hidden secret prisons continue.

Historically speaking, he's perhaps 'a little above average', but largely because of the times - we don't seem to do things like run foreign countries with the old formula of dictator and death squad secret police we supply like we used to so much. The cold war is over, new times.

The competition is just disgustingly ugly - ignorance is the best thing about them, from there it goes downhill to evil and pandering.

And that's just what they say - just as Bush didn't say in the campaign he had a hard-on (sorry for the crude metaphor) for war in Iraq but did, it's likely any of the Republican candidates will have surprises for us, whether they know what they are now or are just 'open to them'. These people are all an embarrassing menace to the world on this issue IMO.

There is a wild-card element to them though; the tea party again, has an isolationist streak in conjunction with its 'ban all mosques' type rhetoric.

I think the US needs someone who will pursue real strengthening of international law; decrease defense spending by half; be strong where needed, support things like anti-nuclear proliferation efforts (and a global ban really as Presidents before Bush endorsed), but we don't have that candidate.

Ron Paul offers isolationism based on ideology that I think has its own flaws.

Obama's not that good foreign policy seems the clear choice among poor choices.

3. The economy

Yes, a disastrous situation since Reagan, worsening under Clinton and the Bush, has led to a terrible situation Obama inherited.

Obama has done little to fix it, and little to make it worse - though it is getting worse.

Again he's supported 'better than Republican' policies though they basically are Republican policies. Extending the Bush tax cuts for the top 2%, a weakened finance reform bill, a lack of prosecution for crime in the economic crisis, nothing about 'too big to fail' with banks bigger after the crash, re-appointing the same staff with bad policies, on and on, we need a progressive leader, he's not it.

Republicans, are again just embarrassing - running on empty pandering phrases about 'stopping the socialist' in effect and straw men they don't hate business like Obama does, with little more than right-wing ideology to offer, along with these radical notions of 'not one cent in closing tax loopholes for the rich that were corrupt to pass', threatening the economy not raising the debt ceiling, on and on.

With Obama we get a Wall Street employee - and sadly that's the least bad pick.

4. Supreme Court appointees

I value this a lot - Citiens v. United alone is an example paving the way to massive destruction of our democracy. These 5-4 decisions for years between four right-wing radicals and Kennedy and the traditional four others, are a great harm to the country, setting precedents indefinitely.

This is probably Obama's strongest issue here. He hasn't appointed any liberal justices as I'd like; he has appointed moderates protecting us from more radicals.

Every Republican seems loyal to the radical model. This is basically enough to make re-electing Obama important by itself.

5. I'll reserve this one, as a fifth one doesn't jump out compared to those four.

IMO, Obama is basically a traditional Republican, running as a Democrat, and the alternative is either corporatist and/or far-right candidates.

It's a sad election for America not to have someone better to pick - IMO a Howard Dean, an Al Gore, a John Kennedy, an FDR type.

But to repeat, I think it's Obama continuing as he has, versus disasters. I think it's important we re-elect Obama.

I plan to support the progressive candidate they're looking for now, in the primary.
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,215
14
81
I think President Obama is going to have to come out with a big/inventive program in Sept that will put Americans back to work and dare the Repuglican's to vote it down showing their true colors.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
I think President Obama is going to have to come out with a big/inventive program in Sept that will put Americans back to work and dare the Repuglican's to vote it down showing their true colors.

Good point. I can name 20 issues I think the Dems needed to put something up and make it visible for Repubs to vote they haven't, unfortunately.

For example, where's the bill repealing the no-negotiation clause in Medicare Part D (bargained away by Obama, but Congress could pass it)? Where's the bill unilaterally repealing corrupt tax breaks benefiting 4% of Americans? The fix for 'carried capital gains'? Stronger bank regulation than the compromised bill?
 

khon

Golden Member
Jun 8, 2010
1,319
124
106
Who should win ? Off the people currently in the race, I'd have to say Ron Paul.

Not because he's the guy I actually agree with the most (I'm liberal), but because he's the only person in the race who isn't bought and paid for.

Who will win ? My guess is either Obama or Perry. Aka incompetence or disaster.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,656
687
126
Remember folks, GHW Bush had a 90% approval rating 18 months before the 92 election and we saw what happened. Trying to predict the election at this stage is a useless pursuit.

As to who should win, neither party with the candidates currently on stage. If the Republicans nominate someone like Perry, Bachmann, or Palin, they are probably handing the White House to the Democrats. The person who SHOULD be their candidate and who SHOULD win (Mitch Daniels) isn't even running.
 
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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
We are fucked regardless. I disagree with the "less bad" that Craig tries to use, it truly is a question of less evil. If I am to vote for evil I am writing in beezlebub. Why fuck around?
 

sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
8,172
137
106
When you replace Paul Krugman with Steve Keen you will actually learn a little bit more about economics, and your ideas wont sounds so naive.
 
May 11, 2008
20,055
1,290
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I think you should ask your future government officials if they know and understand the "rijnland" model. If they agree with it, is another issue.
If they do not even know what the Anglo-Saxon model is, you can safely ignore them. This should be standard material for any president.
 

FDF12389

Diamond Member
Sep 8, 2005
5,234
7
76
Ron Paul, only because I usually don't vote for "D" or "R" since both parties are corrupt, and it seems Ron Paul:

Isn't afraid to speak his mind even if it goes against the GOP grain
Has common sense
Isn't bought and paid for as someone else already mentioned
 

Macamus Prime

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2011
3,108
0
0
Palin. Then we can go for broke by invading Iran and end the stupid wars in other nations. We will get our ass handed to us and retreat. Maybe then we can finally start focusing on our own fucking country.

With a dishearted military, the corporate overlords can finally realize they can't keep using and abusing the US Government for their own purposes and personal gain. Maybe then the public will sink their teeth into American corporations and finally draw some fucking blood for the 1st time.

It is disgusting how an American citizen trusts a personal business more than their own government. Granted, you can argue that certain sectors of the government are taken over and abused by private corporations - then you can argue and validate your mistrust of government.

But, if I had to choose the lesser of two evils, it's government. Corporations are inhumane and seek nothing but profits. No one is going to punish them, so frankly, you need something big to break and have the masses hit them hard. Hopefully, leave a mark that will last long enough so that they don't try this shit again anytime soon.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
When you replace Paul Krugman with Steve Keen you will actually learn a little bit more about economics, and your ideas wont sounds so naive.

I've been considering for some time posting a bit of an explanation to people here, like you, who have no idea how to argue a point. Just an allegation is often pointless.

Economics is especially suited to arcane gobbledy-beloved patriot ideology being spouted calling each other naive and such.

Cutting through the crap is often the thing to do. But you don't say anything to respond to, zero support for your allegation. You need to try harder. You sound childish.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81
I think its still too early. OB has a whole year to clean up his act. So far the republicans really don't have a true viable candidate. None of these candidates, even though I like a couple of them, have a chance to win. Its like you know what you have is not very good, but what you see as an alternative is worse.
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,865
10
0
I've been considering for some time posting a bit of an explanation to people here, like you, who have no idea how to argue a point. Just an allegation is often pointless.

Economics is especially suited to arcane gobbledy-beloved patriot ideology being spouted calling each other naive and such.

Cutting through the crap is often the thing to do. But you don't say anything to respond to, zero support for your allegation. You need to try harder. You sound childish.

...but that's exactly what you just did. D:
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,462
0
0
Personally I'll probably never vote R or D again in the hopes that something changes within my lifetime. I really think both parties are complete garbage and want our system to accommodate a 3rd party in realistic terms. Since I think the vast majority won't do that but are desperate for "change" though I think they'll go for a woman. They tried the black guy, they tried the democrats, and that's why I think the Rep are pushing female candidates so hard. We seem to be stuck in a "I'll vote for the opposite of what we have" thing rather than voting for what's good for the country.

The real problem is at the core of how politics works. Anyone who has dealt with an elected official from the Sherriff to the District Attorney to the School Board members realizes that it's way too much about getting elected and not so much about doing what's right for the constituency.
 
Jun 27, 2005
19,251
1
61
I think President Obama is going to have to come out with a big/inventive program in Sept that will put Americans back to work and dare the Repuglican's to vote it down showing their true colors.

Yeah... that would require 'leadership' on his part. :hmm: My guess is he'll just take another vacation and work on his golf game.

Who should win? Does it matter? Until we fix congress, the president doesn't matter.

I plan to support the progressive candidate they're looking for now, in the primary.

Hahahaha... WTF are you talking about? Do you seriously think the Dems are looking for a real candidate to run against Obama? They might find a patsy to run against him like Gore did... Y'know, so he can have a debate to participate in. Can't let the R's have all the fun can they?

No, Obama will run unopposed (minus the fringe candidates and the patsy). There won't be a progressive candidate for you to choose.

The choices will be:
1. Douche
2. Turd Sandwich

Just like last time.
 
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woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
Huntsman is the sole GOP candidate that I can stand. I would actually consider voting for him over Obama, but he has no chance in the primary. Failing that, I will hold my nose and vote for Obama. I suppose there is a marginal chance he will be better in a second term, where he won't consider how every last thing he does will afffect his chance of re-election. I would support a progressive candidate in the primary, but it's irrelevant as Obama will be the nominee.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,816
83
91
"should"?

Hillary, obviously.

but since I live in a state where 0 campaign dollars will be spent and where no politicians will bother campaigning, I'll probably be voting for an anti-war third party candidate.
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,084
1,505
126
Yeah... that would require 'leadership' on his part. :hmm: My guess is he'll just take another vacation and work on his golf game.

Who should win? Does it matter? Until we fix congress, the president doesn't matter.



Hahahaha... WTF are you talking about? Do you seriously think the Dems are looking for a real candidate to run against Obama? They might find a patsy to run against him like Gore did... Y'know, so he can have a debate to participate in. Can't let the R's have all the fun can they?

No, Obama will run unopposed (minus the fringe candidates and the patsy). There won't be a progressive candidate for you to choose.

The choices will be:
1. Douche
2. Turd Sandwich

Just like last time.

While I have my complaints about Obama, all of them are based on facts. So I figure I should help you have your complaints be actually based on facts instead of stupid ranting nonsense that it seems to be.

http://lezgetreal.com/2011/08/fact-of-the-day-presidential-vacations/

You're welcome.
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,215
14
81
Yeah... that would require 'leadership' on his part. :hmm: My guess is he'll just take another vacation and work on his golf game.

Who should win? Does it matter? Until we fix congress, the president doesn't matter.

I do agree he needs to be more assertive and more hands on especially when Congress is an inept clusterfuck.
 
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