Tire technical

[TTM77]

This is not computer related but it's technical.

I bought 4 tires and installed at Wal-mart. Tire warranty is 80,000 miles. After only 47,000 miles they refuse to do a tire rotation for me because it's too worn out and dangerouse. At that time it was too late and I was tired from 3.5hrs of waiting for them to get to my car.

After went home, remember the warranty etc and went back the next day. The guy looked at my tires and said the shocks are damaged/out of align which cause all 4 tires to worn out. I toll them I had the entire new surspension right after installed these tires, and the alignment were done correctly that when I drive I don't get any shaking or anything. The guy felt the tires and said they all were "coupling".

Anyway, the low down. 2 front tires are worn evenly, two back tires worn out more but also evenly.

The guy said I was negligent and that voided the warranty.

Now, my question is if what he said is true wouldn't that cause an unbalance in the car which lead to unbalance worn out in the tire which lead to 1 tire worn out extremely more since it's 47,000 miles and mostly highway driving?

 

[Peter]

By European standards (where tyres are made from rubber not concrete), 47,000 miles is very impressive. Also, tyre rotation is a big no-no because tyre profile blocks develop directional wear. That can be felt and sometimes even seen as a sawtooth shape of the profile blocks. Swap front/rear, but DON'T swap left/right.
If you'd ask for 80,000 miles tyre warranty over here, dealers would get asphyxiated from laughing. In return, we get tyres that have grip levels and quality that withstand the speeds we're driving at. I really wouldn't want to brake on wet with a US tyre. No thanks. (Yes I tried. Hair raising.)

 

[sao123]

Call tire manufacturer...

there are cases of wheel alignment problems which do not cause uneven wear of tires.

 

[kleinwl]

Wal-Mart is definitly giving you a b.s. answer. If there is significant wear patterns (ie. outside tread is heavily worn while inside is new, or there is a center patch worn... or the sidewalls are damaged) that could be neglect (poor camber or too much/little air pressure). However, if the tread is evenly worn across the tire then it's their fault for putting on a b.s. warrently.

From your discription I don't suppose that you do burnouts/drifts... so these things should be issues (yes you can tell that from the sidewall/tread damage).

 

[Peter]

I haven't been clear above, but I seriously doubt that warranty covers _wear_.

 

[harrkev]

Originally posted by: Peter
Also, tyre rotation is a big no-no because tyre profile blocks develop directional wear. That can be felt and sometimes even seen as a sawtooth shape of the profile blocks. Swap front/rear, but DON'T swap left/right.

That used to be the case 20 years ago, when cheaper tires were bias-ply. But now that almost all tires are radials, I do not think that it matters.

 

[Taishan69]

Actually, with radials, I believe that you are supposed to swap diagnally, then front/back, and they should be rotated every (10000?) miles. Front wheel drive cars especially, if I remember correctly (that is, unless you want the outsides of the front tires to completely be gone from turning stresses, since the inertia from the turn will throw the weight of the car to the edges of the tires).

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Peter
I haven't been clear above, but I seriously doubt that warranty covers _wear_.

I know my tire warranty covers wear... That's why the mileage figure is given. If the tire wears out before you reach that mileage, you get new tires, since the tires did not perform as advertised. You pay a lot more for 80,000 mile tires for this reason.

Sounds to me like the guy is BSing you. What brand are the tires? If the shocks are the problem, I would anticipate even wear across all tires, or increased wear on the wheels with bad shocks. The fact is that the weight of the car will be applied to all four wheels. The 'goodness' of the shocks will affect how that weight is distributed to the various tires. Thus, if all your shocks are bad, then all your tires will wear at about the same rate. The rate shouldn't be significantly increased due to having all bad shocks, as the weight they'd carry in this case would be approximately the same as if all the shocks were good. If one shock was shot, I would expect the corresponding tire to wear at a faster rate than the others, as it would receive a greater fraction of the burden of the car's weight.

 

[TTM77]

Peter, it seem like your info on tires need update. Here in the US, the warranty is taking seriously even though they will give you a bunch of BS to void that warrenty. But 80k miles is said in the warranty which mean the tire should run more then 80k. My car is a Camry, it doesn't have much power at all. So I can not burn rubber and things like sport cars or supped up cars could. This warranty is no laughing matter.

Taishan69, I drive mostly highway. So not as much turning as to ppl drive in city.

CycloWizard, the chances of all the shock 'being bad' exactly the same is rear. It could happen but just rear. Usually one of them give out and create an imbalance in the tire which cause the tire to rub the pavement differently then it should (side way) which lead to the tire wearing a lot faster. But after 47,000 miles and all 4 wear evenly, that just tell me nothing is wrong with my car. So, I think it's the material wearing out faster then it should. The Brand is Douglas and model is Touring and paid like $57/each. At first I bought the Uniroyal Radial. That crap ride like baloons. Everytime I make a turn I feel like my car was going to flip over. I go back right away the next day and have the guy change it out and I got these. Paying more but at least it ride better and 80k is great. Now my 80k went to hel.

Yesterday I put the order in for 4 new tires of Yokohama Touring. Lots of good rating from customer. $50 a pop isn't bad. Even better with free shipping.

 

[Peter]

Originally posted by: harrkev

Originally posted by: Peter
Also, tyre rotation is a big no-no because tyre profile blocks develop directional wear. That can be felt and sometimes even seen as a sawtooth shape of the profile blocks. Swap front/rear, but DON'T swap left/right.

That used to be the case 20 years ago, when cheaper tires were bias-ply. But now that almost all tires are radials, I do not think that it matters.

It does matter. Ask a tyre technician with a clue. And look at your own tyres. Even with low power cars, profile block wear is directional even if the tyre is not.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: TTM77
CycloWizard, the chances of all the shock 'being bad' exactly the same is rear. It could happen but just rear. Usually one of them give out and create an imbalance in the tire which cause the tire to rub the pavement differently then it should (side way) which lead to the tire wearing a lot faster. But after 47,000 miles and all 4 wear evenly, that just tell me nothing is wrong with my car. So, I think it's the material wearing out faster then it should. The Brand is Douglas and model is Touring and paid like $57/each. At first I bought the Uniroyal Radial. That crap ride like baloons. Everytime I make a turn I feel like my car was going to flip over. I go back right away the next day and have the guy change it out and I got these. Paying more but at least it ride better and 80k is great. Now my 80k went to hel.

Right - this was exactly my point. The guy is yanking your chain.

Tires are the one thing I don't skimp on... Always go with a good brand, even if the price is significantly more. Otherwise, you'll regret it the first time it rains and you slide through an intersection into oncoming traffic.

 

[JMU1337]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Tires are the one thing I don't skimp on... Always go with a good brand, even if the price is significantly more. Otherwise, you'll regret it the first time it rains and you slide through an intersection into oncoming traffic.

:thumbsup: exactly. they are the ONE thing on your car that is connected to the road, buy the best you can.

 

[interchange]

If the tires are worn evenly then alignment is NOT the problem.

You're lucky they told you they were too worn to rotate. I brought mine in for an oil change and tire rotation and they rotated them EVEN though the tire was significantly worn on the inside only from bad frontal alignment. A couple weeks later, flat tire.

It was very obvious with the tire off just how worn the tire was but very impossible to see with basic visual inspection with the tires on.

Have them check your alignment with their machine while you're standing there. Prove them wrong and get yourself some new tires .

 

[SCSIRAID]

Originally posted by: Peter

Originally posted by: harrkev

Originally posted by: Peter
Also, tyre rotation is a big no-no because tyre profile blocks develop directional wear. That can be felt and sometimes even seen as a sawtooth shape of the profile blocks. Swap front/rear, but DON'T swap left/right.

That used to be the case 20 years ago, when cheaper tires were bias-ply. But now that almost all tires are radials, I do not think that it matters.

It does matter. Ask a tyre technician with a clue. And look at your own tyres. Even with low power cars, profile block wear is directional even if the tyre is not.

Straight from the Michelin website.... for a front wheel drive vehicle... fronts to rear... crossover the rears to the front.

http://www.michelinman.com/care/tip2.html

Goodyear says the same thing....

http://www.goodyeartires.com/faqs/Rotation.html#3

 

[summit]

i do work on show cars/ drift/mod/import scene cars and the best place to go for good tires is amazing costco they have good value on tires and good warrenty... btw most places will not replace your full tires with the warrenty but give you a prorated amount for your next set good brands are falken, yokohama, michelin, toyo, and pirellis if you have the bank for it ... if you drive on hot roads with lots of stop and go traffic your tires will wear sooner; by the way you might not be able to notice "coupling" effect, but its hard to prove your case either way the best bet is to go to costco and get some tires

 

[Peter]

... without a warning that most of their tyres ARE directional. Stupid. Strange that the european tyre manufacturers' websites, as well as the magazines, car clubs, and garages recommend differently.

http://www.michelin.de/de/front/affich.jsp?codeRubrique=1043#t

German. Have the section "Räderwechsel" babelfished. It says change front to rear every 10,000, keep the better tyres on the rear end. There's also a section on the sawtooth effect "Sägezahn".

Goodyear recommends (on all sites) that the tyres coming from the drive train axle should NOT be crossed over (guess why, sawtooth wear), and that those coming from the passive axle may be. Makes sense, sort of, as long as you're not doing it twice.

Tyres with directional designs are never crossed over to the other side.

These things might matter a lot less in the USA with the low speed limits there. We drive faster over here, and if you'd heard the huge amount of extra noise from a previously quiet tyre, just because it's been mounted onto the "wrong" side of the car, the sudden lack of braking and cornering performance, you'd know what I mean. With speeds of 160 to 170 km/h (>100 mph) being daily business on the Autobahn, rest assured: You'd know.

 

[Calin]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Peter
I haven't been clear above, but I seriously doubt that warranty covers _wear_.

I know my tire warranty covers wear... That's why the mileage figure is given. If the tire wears out before you reach that mileage, you get new tires, since the tires did not perform as advertised. You pay a lot more for 80,000 mile tires for this reason.

Sounds to me like the guy is BSing you. What brand are the tires? If the shocks are the problem, I would anticipate even wear across all tires, or increased wear on the wheels with bad shocks. The fact is that the weight of the car will be applied to all four wheels. The 'goodness' of the shocks will affect how that weight is distributed to the various tires. Thus, if all your shocks are bad, then all your tires will wear at about the same rate. The rate shouldn't be significantly increased due to having all bad shocks, as the weight they'd carry in this case would be approximately the same as if all the shocks were good. If one shock was shot, I would expect the corresponding tire to wear at a faster rate than the others, as it would receive a greater fraction of the burden of the car's weight.

Shocks don't affect the car weight that go on one wheel. Bad springs will distribute weight in different ways.

 

[Calin]

Originally posted by: Calin

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Peter
I haven't been clear above, but I seriously doubt that warranty covers _wear_.

I know my tire warranty covers wear... That's why the mileage figure is given. If the tire wears out before you reach that mileage, you get new tires, since the tires did not perform as advertised. You pay a lot more for 80,000 mile tires for this reason.

Sounds to me like the guy is BSing you. What brand are the tires? If the shocks are the problem, I would anticipate even wear across all tires, or increased wear on the wheels with bad shocks. The fact is that the weight of the car will be applied to all four wheels. The 'goodness' of the shocks will affect how that weight is distributed to the various tires. Thus, if all your shocks are bad, then all your tires will wear at about the same rate. The rate shouldn't be significantly increased due to having all bad shocks, as the weight they'd carry in this case would be approximately the same as if all the shocks were good. If one shock was shot, I would expect the corresponding tire to wear at a faster rate than the others, as it would receive a greater fraction of the burden of the car's weight.

Shocks don't affect the way the car weight is distributed on wheels. Bad springs will distribute weight in ways different from normal.

Edited order of words

 

[ND40oz]

Originally posted by: SCSIRAID

Originally posted by: Peter

Originally posted by: harrkev

Originally posted by: Peter
Also, tyre rotation is a big no-no because tyre profile blocks develop directional wear. That can be felt and sometimes even seen as a sawtooth shape of the profile blocks. Swap front/rear, but DON'T swap left/right.

That used to be the case 20 years ago, when cheaper tires were bias-ply. But now that almost all tires are radials, I do not think that it matters.

It does matter. Ask a tyre technician with a clue. And look at your own tyres. Even with low power cars, profile block wear is directional even if the tyre is not.

Straight from the Michelin website.... for a front wheel drive vehicle... fronts to rear... crossover the rears to the front.

http://www.michelinman.com/care/tip2.html

Goodyear says the same thing....

http://www.goodyeartires.com/faqs/Rotation.html#3

If you choose to crossover the tires during rotation, you should take them off the rim and have them remounted and balanced so that they are rotating the same direction. This is the correct way to rotate a tire when using the crossover method. Tire belts wear in the direction they rotate and after 6-8 thousand miles, you do not want to change the direction that they have been rotating.

Back on subject, your tire's should not wear out after just over half the warranteed time. I would call the tire manufacturer and deal with them if Walmart is giving you the runaround. Personally, I'd never let Wally World work on my car and I'd recommend costco as a good place to get tires locally (they rotate and balance them for free during the life of the tire) or tirerack.com and have costco mount and balance them for 9 bucks a tire.

 

[TTM77]

I wrote a complain email to Walmart. They've emailed me back asking for more info. I give them my phone # that I use when I buy the tire. Next day they called me. Bla bla, then they say they'll prorate for me eventhough they not suppose to. Even that is not good enough. My tires are almost complete gone for only half the milleage it promise. Prorate would give me what.. $5 off? Anyway, I prefer saving that $5 on gas to drive and wait there. So, bought new tires and got free delivery. Now, just wait for the right time to put them on.

Wal-mart don't do alignment, so can't prove to them that my car is well align.

The tire I see have very good rating from all customer is Yocohama Avid Touring and Costco don't have it. Tire discount have these for $49 + free shipping. I try some price comparision with Costco and Discount Tire website and Discount is better even with the $9 you pay Costco to put it on.

Edit: My new tires also say 80,000 mile warranty

I have a cousin work in the dealer, he can do all of it for me.

 

[Peter]

Originally posted by: ND40ozIf you choose to crossover the tires during rotation, you should take them off the rim and have them remounted and balanced so that they are rotating the same direction. This is the correct way to rotate a tire when using the crossover method. Tire belts wear in the direction they rotate and after 6-8 thousand miles, you do not want to change the direction that they have been rotating.

Wear is directional, that's what I was saying, thanks for the confirmation

 

[JJ650]

Heya Peter,
as a note we (those of us residing in the states) have tires (tyres) that are speed rated as well and rated on grip. I don't know why you think we don't.

 

[Peter]

I know you do. What I said is, at the speeds you're (legally) driving, paying attention to these finer details doesn't matter as much.

 

[JJ650]

Well I can assure you that I don't drive the legal limit (seems like lots of folks don't. ) on a regular basis and my tires are well beyond the legal limit for the rated speed as well. I buy the tire for the way I drive. Performance is a main factor for me. As soon as I got my vehicle, the stock wheels came off. High mileage warranties are for the harder compound tires. Mine is a softer compound but still has a decent mileage warranty. Warranties are generally for "normal" wear under "normal" driving conditions. A dealership will try hard as hell to skew what normal conditions and wear are.

 

[Peter]

This I said too - I see how a tyre warranty works for actual manufacturing defects, but trying to claim a warranty case purely because of wear? Not going to work.
(And I don't want to experience the wet grip of such an 80,000-mile tyre EVER AGAIN, thank you very much.)

You're doing the right thing, buy a tyre that works for what and how you drive. When it's worn down IN A PERFECTLY NORMAL WAY, then it's because you used it up, not because it's been faulty. Why is it that these days, the bleeding obvious so often ends up as a court case?