Tired of goofballs saying that conservatives hate America. Get a clue!

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
This is representative of how I view the average lib, know-it-all, judgemental and ready to embrace change regardless of the consequences.

That says a lot about you, not about liberals.

But you're right, the liberals who have informed opinions should incorporate the Hitler mustache-wearing Obama poster messages for all the useful content.

And yes, those liberals, so judgemental - of people who destroy democracy with the contamination of money, of greed of people's healthcare, of bigots who deny others rights, and so on.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
Questioning people's patriotism is a time-honored tradition of cynical American politics. The republicans have elevated it to a fine art over the years. Whoever or whichever democrats may be doing the same thing are guilty of rank hypocrisy.

- wolf
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Questioning people's patriotism is a time-honored tradition of cynical American politics. The republicans have elevated it to a fine art over the years. Whoever or whichever democrats may be doing the same thing are guilty of rank hypocrisy.

- wolf

Just a note of my view of a clarification:

This is usuallly right, but there are cases the attack is legitimate.

There are also many gray areas. If there is a policy question of whether the US should colonize/exploit a third world nation for its own benefit, opponents might say proponents are unpatriotic for violating American moreal principles and staining her honor, while proponents might say opponents are unpatriotic for putting the 'well being' of the third world nation ahead of the material benefits for America.

Clearer examples are, for example, when a rich person puts a vast sum into illegal tax evasion schemes overseas, not paying 'his fair share' for the nation's needs.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
right here:

"It's not an issue of knowledge, it's an issue of efficiency. Everyone needs or is going to need health insurance at some point. If a government-run system could save money and be more efficient than what the free market could provide then in essence, wouldn't the "government know better what to do?"

But socialized medicine has been proven to be more cost-efficient in other countries. For a reference, please read this op-ed that was published in Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/02/health-care-costs-opinions-columnists-reform.html
The problem of health care spending growing faster than incomes is also a problem that plagues the private sector, which explains why total spending on health care in the economy has doubled over the last 30 years to a current level of about 16% of GDP. CBO estimates that this percentage will double again over the next 25 years to 31% of GDP.

Americans widely believe that while the our health system is expensive it is nevertheless the best in the world. However, a new report from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development suggests otherwise.


According to the OECD, the U.S. spends 5% of GDP more on health than France, the nation with the second highest level of health spending among the 30 wealthy countries in the organization. The average for all OECD countries is 8.9% of GDP. We spend $7,290 per person on average versus $2,964 among all OECD countries. Norway, the nation with the second most expensive health system on a per capita basis, spends $4,763. (Currency conversions based on purchasing power parity.)

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Even more significant is the fact that despite spending vastly more on health than any other country, the U.S. has little to show for it in terms of key measures of health resources. For example, we have fewer physicians per capita than most other OECD countries: 2.43 per 1,000 population versus an OECD average of 3.1. Austria, Belgium, Iceland, Ireland, the Netherlands and Norway all spend at least a third less of GDP on health than the U.S. yet have almost four doctors per 1,000 population.
What's amazing is that those other countries cover 100% of their populations for less money than it costs the U.S. to cover only a fraction of its population.
USA:

  • Spends 16-17% of its GDP on health care
  • Leaves tens of millions uninsured or uninsured
  • People with insurance live in terror of losing their jobs and insurance.
  • Hundreds of thousands of medical bankruptcies every year
  • Businesses, would-be-entrepreneurs, and an economy burdened by insurance concerns
UK, France, etc.:

  • Spend far less than 16-17% of GDP on health care
  • 100% coverage
  • Content populace
  • Zero or near-zero medical bankruptcies
  • Businesses not burdened by insurance concerns.
You can also use common sense to realize that the huge amount of middlemen in our health care system is very wasteful. How exactly do insurance executives and employees, insurance brokers, benefits plan managers, and medical billing specialists contribute to the delivery of health care? They don't! Only doctors, physicians assistants, medical technologists, nurses, hospital maintenance people, etc., really contribute. By eliminating most of the middlemen, great efficiencies can be realized.

IMO that is foolish. What government gets its hands on turns into a beaurcratic red tape party similar to a bunch of six year olds with silly string. My kids have been on medicaid (but I made too much so I had to pay monthly??) and well they have fucked up so much shit and left me with the bill it isn't even funny. I had to send stuff certified mail just to prove I sent them. You never talk to the same person twice the employees treat you like shit and the apothy is palpable.
Assuming that this is true and that our government is completely inept (I don't think it is), this is why we need to improve our government and stamp out waste and corruption.

I agree that our government isn't always the most efficient or rational, but I disagree with the dogmatic notion that government always fails or cannot be efficient and that real capitalism is the most efficient and best way to do things. Real capitalist medicine would be a nightmare; you would have to hire an attorney to read through your insurance contract and hope that he is competent enough not be tricked by the expensive attorneys the insurance company hired to fool him.

Also Doctors treat you like shit they found underneath a rock and your kids like shit as well. Why because that doctor knows that he/she will get 20 cents on the dollar for their services. Hell I have had doctors many and often diagnose over the phone and still bill medicare because they don't want to waste their precious time with a medicaid kid. Sure I might find a saint of a doctor like we have now but it is that it is his first practice and he is not so jaded yet.
It doesn't seem to work that way in the nations that have real socialized medicine and I haven't seen or heard of any news reports about people marching in the streets asking for their nation to adopt the American system; they are horrified by the American system. As I understand it, doctors are well-compensated in other countries and, unlike in the U.S., often don't have to pay for medical school.

Is my private health insurance perfect no it is an HSA "chevy malibu" package but at least I am treated with more diginty then someone on the public dole. But if you think about it if you were forced to take business from the government and then they paid you 20-30 cents on the dollar would you not get at least discouraged? The Gov't system would model this sysytem and well I don't wish that on anyone. A monopoly where no one loses their job, customer no-service becomes an art form, people are stuck with you so they need to stfu and like it, and at the end of the day very little gets done.
Obviously performance incentives would need to be build into the system. In the UK doctors are rewarded if their patients are healthier or have improved health. This documentary video may be of interest to you if you are sincerely interested in learning more about how other nations do it:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

Just click on "Watch the Full Program Online" to start the video.
 
Last edited:

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
Just a note of my view of a clarification:

This is usuallly right, but there are cases the attack is legitimate.

There are also many gray areas. If there is a policy question of whether the US should colonize/exploit a third world nation for its own benefit, opponents might say proponents are unpatriotic for violating American moreal principles and staining her honor, while proponents might say opponents are unpatriotic for putting the 'well being' of the third world nation ahead of the material benefits for America.

Clearer examples are, for example, when a rich person puts a vast sum into illegal tax evasion schemes overseas, not paying 'his fair share' for the nation's needs.

I don't buy any of your examples as legit. The problem is that in each case the person who is playing the "you're unpatriotic" card is making an assumption that the other person's motive is not for benefiting America. Opposing colonization, unpatriotic, or does the person think that American values are inconsistent with colonization? Favoring colonization, unpatriotic, or the person just thinks that colonization will benefit America?

Lack of patriotism is an assumption that should never be made of a fellow American UNLESS the person in question makes it explicit and obvious. Even in your last example, I would say that person is greedy and not doing his part, but that isn't the same thing as hating America. That kind of assumption is a stretch.

The truth is that the right and left have different conceptions of patriotism, but playing this card is cheap demogagery and any progressive who endorses it, after republicans have been using it shamelessly in elections for as long as they have, is guilty of major hypocrisy.

- wolf
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
I don't buy any of your examples as legit. The problem is that in each case the person who is playing the "you're unpatriotic" card is making an assumption that the other person's motive is not for benefiting America. Opposing colonization, unpatriotic, or does the person think that American values are inconsistent with colonization? Favoring colonization, unpatriotic, or the person just thinks that colonization will benefit America?

Lack of patriotism is an assumption that should never be made of a fellow American UNLESS the person in question makes it explicit and obvious. Even in your last example, I would say that person is greedy and not doing his part, but that isn't the same thing as hating America. That kind of assumption is a stretch.

The truth is that the right and left have different conceptions of patriotism, but playing this card is cheap demogagery and any progressive who endorses it, after republicans have been using it shamelessly in elections for as long as they have, is guilty of major hypocrisy.

- wolf

Again, I agree with you to a point - I do think that unpatriotic is an attack used excessively, casually, wrongly. I do think many mistake a difference of opinion with the motive of a lack of patriotism.

Ineeed I know this more than many insofar as I often advocate that people remember they are a member of the human race before a natiionaly - a view some view as conflicting with patriotism. I don't.

But I draw the line sooner than you. Hitler could be said to be a German patriot because he was doing what he thought German was really about - even while he felt only a few Germans were 'real' Germans.

Benedict Arnold could be said to be a patriot to the colonies - if he had come to feel that remaining British subjects was the best thing for them (although this does not seem to be the case).

Certainly, there's room for people whose views result in harm to the nation are patriotic in their motive.

But there's a point at which the person is putting bad motives ahead of the well being of society.

If a person does something that makes them more money with an attitude of "this is bad for the people of country, but tough crap, that's the free market, who cares", a case can be made that's not patriotic.

The case I say is pretty clearly unpatriotic - a rich person who illegally evades their share of taxes - you finally say 'might' start to be. My point of not paying their fair share for the good of the country putting their own profit ahead of any concern for the nation is a pretty cloear contradiction, you refer to as 'so he put his own wealth ahead of the nation to the point of breaking the law, what's the big deal' is how it looks to me.

So, again, I agree with you on what I view as your main point, but I think you are too broad with it.

Were the Bushes unpatriotic when the grandfather had his bank seized for laundering money for the Nazi leadership? Was George W. Bush unpatriotic for advocating war in Vietnam but evading it himself?

You equate 'not patriotic' with 'hating the country'. I don't. The latter is more extreme.

But it is far overused as a lie and a debasing attack in our political system.

I was just reading today about a Republican who came up with some vicious, dishonest attack ads about Democrats being 'soft on communism in the USSR' and ran them against six Democratic Senators in the midwest in the 80's - and four of them lost. We know Nixon's campaignfor the US Senate against the femal incumbant called her 'the pink lady' as an insinuation about communism. There's a long history of abuse.
 
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