Titan X Announced

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JoeRambo

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2013
1,814
2,105
136
Nvidia in fact has a ton of options with Titan 2 DP compute . Kepler had it's DP units completely separate ( 64DP per SMX vs 192 SP ). Now Maxwell is very light on DP wording, just that it's rate is 1/32 due to whatever reasons and on SMM diagram there are no more separate DP units.

So properly built unit can have up to 1/2 rate of DP ( 2x32bit SP units working as 64bit unit). That would make 1536DP core unit.

And it would be no news in this industry, Intel does it since SSE/AVX days, splitting 128bit/256bit registers as vector of doubles and it got seriuos with AVX512 in Knights Landing.

So Nvidia has a recipe for success, great cache/memory subsystem that is critical for floating point and potentially up to 1/2 rate for DP ( but can tune it down cause of marketing/technical decisions ).
 

FatherMurphy

Senior member
Mar 27, 2014
229
18
81
What is interesting is why Nvidia is announcing it so early, some little birds from Taiwan must have told them something about AMD's 3xx family. Otherwise it makes no sense, cause 980 is king of the hill right now and announcement will cannibalize sales.

Given the anticipated pricing of Titan X ($999+), GTX 980 and Titan X are in entirely different market segments, so there is likely little chance of cannibalizing sales... also, I can't see Nvidia shedding too many tears if it can cannibalize sales of a $550 card with a $999+ card.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
Given the anticipated pricing of Titan X ($999+), GTX 980 and Titan X are in entirely different market segments, so there is likely little chance of cannibalizing sales... also, I can't see Nvidia shedding too many tears if it can cannibalize sales of a $550 card with a $999+ card.

No. He means making people hold off and buy nothing because they are waiting for Titan, when nVidia could sell them a 980 today.
 

tviceman

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2008
6,734
514
126
www.facebook.com
Hopefully the 390x comes in at $550, competitive with GM200, and puts the Titan pricing to shame in a much sooner fashion than Hawaii did with Titan 1.
 

FatherMurphy

Senior member
Mar 27, 2014
229
18
81
Ah, I see. Still, if Nvidia can tease some potential 980 purchasers enough to hold them off from buying a 980 for 2 weeks (assuming a hard launch at GTC) and instead opt for a ridiculously expensive Titan X, then Nvidia comes out on top.
 
Last edited:

JoeRambo

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2013
1,814
2,105
136
Given the anticipated pricing of Titan X ($999+), GTX 980 and Titan X are in entirely different market segments, so there is likely little chance of cannibalizing sales... also, I can't see Nvidia shedding too many tears if it can cannibalize sales of a $550 card with a $999+ card.

Of course. But some customers that could buy GTX980 today will now instead wait for consumer version of GM200? Nothing currently on market is pushing Nvidia's hand to do early announcement.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
I'm curious how everyone is so confident that a GM200 Titan X would had terrible DP performance compared to the previous Titan.

Where is the evidence that suggests this? All I've seen is references to the 980's DP performance.

Let's compare:

Model - SP/DP (in GFLOPS) - Die Size - Transistor Count (in millions)
770 - 3213/134 - 294mm - 3540
780 - 3977/166 - 561mm - 7080
780 Ti - 5046/210 - 561mm - 7080
Titan - 4500/1300-1500 - 561mm - 7080
Titan Black - 5121/1707 - 561mm - 7080

980 - 4612/144 - 398mm - 5200

[All data provided by wikipedia]


After doing some math, what I do see is that Maxwell may have a DP performance about 1/32 of SP for the consumer parts, whereas Kepler had about 1/24.
However, Titan had between 1/4 and 1/5th the performance, and Titan Black had 1/3.

If we extrapolate that with Maxwell, it's likely that a full 985 Ti type of product would likely have around 6912/216 SP to DP. That's likely a low-end guess, based solely on dividing SP/DP into SMMs and extrapolating that to 24 SMMs for the GM200. This may not be a whole picture, as other factors come into play. For instance, making that same comparison of SP/DP to SMM count, the 970 has a lower factor, which demonstrates that the L2 cache and potentially memory controller configuration are likely involved in final compute performance

Now, as DP performance relates to transistor count, the 980 actually has a higher ratio than the 780. It is lower than the 780 Ti. However, this may not be an apt comparison, as the 980 is closer to the 770 in die-configuration. If we compare to that, the GK104 does have a higher ratio, however, it's ratio of DP/SP is essentially the same as the 780 and 780 Ti.

Which means it is harder to actually make a fair guess of what a Titan X class of card would do, at best guess we can possibly get a rough estimate of a consumer-variant of the GM200.

Again, consider these DP/SP values:
780 - 0.04174
780 Ti - 0.04162
Titan - 0.22̅
Titan Black - 0.33̅

980 - 0.03122

So for Maxwell, it does seem obvious that the SP performance has been targeted more strongly than in Maxwell, but not extensively.


I would also say any consumer variant, such as a 985 Ti, will have higher compute performance in both SP and DP compared to the 780 Ti, but it won't be significant on the DP side of the house, essentially any increase owing only to the nearly 1 billion extra transistors over GK110.

Of course, we don't know HOW Nvidia actually removes DP performance, so the DP/SP ratio for a GM200 consumer part might be higher just for the sake of having a little more than past parts. Obviously the actual GPU can handle a much higher DP capability, but I don't know how they achieve this, and if it is a direct scaled factor or simply chosen at will.


And how do you convert those numbers to what a Titan X might achieve?

If you compare the numbers, the Titan had a ~534% relative increase in DP/SP ratio compared to the 780.
The Titan Black? ~800% increase!

Let's try to extrapolate that kind of performance for Titan X from a potential 985 Ti, using the potential values I presented earlier.

Let's also rethink the nomenclature 985 Ti, and settle on 985. This would represent the first consumer release of a GM200, which, as we saw with the GK110, was later refreshed with further performance in the 780 Ti and Titan Black models.

This 985 has 6912 SP, 216 DP, or 0.03125 (DP/SP). Using a modest 500% increase, we would have a 0.15625 DP/SP ratio.

Let's assume that the Titan X has, oh, 7200 GFLOPS for SP performance, a modest increase over this imagined 985. That brings us to 1125 GFLOPS for DP.

That would be above the Titan but not the Titan Black. Perhaps they skip the idea of a refresh and release the most they can in this Titan X so that it's DP performance may be greater than the Titan Black from the start.

For this, we'll again make the SP performance 7200, just in case that is all they can eek out of Maxwell. While the 780 and 780 Ti had nearly the same ratio comparing DP to SP, the 780 Ti did see a significant jump in SP performance (~1000 GFLOPS SP advantage). I won't further muddy this scenario up by attempting to match those same maneuvers for the sake of brevity, not to mention this may as well by all imaginary numbers until we have confirmed specs for the Titan X.

But let us wrap this up. At 7200 GFLOPS of SP performance, an 800% increase would be: 1800 GFLOPS of DP performance.
A small bump over Titan Black: 7200/1800 over 5121/1707. A fairly significant SP increase but modest DP increase.

With that said, it will be rather interesting to see what they managed to extract out of the GM200. And whatever we see, is that the max from the start? Or might they have a refresh down the line?

I'd be shocked if they release a Titan that costs more than the Titan X ever did, yet does not perform the same in Double Precision compute.


For those that want to see the numbers I worked with, and if they want to extrapolate any other fantasies, be my guest.

 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
8
91
I'm curious how everyone is so confident that a GM200 Titan X would had terrible DP performance compared to the previous Titan.

Where is the evidence that suggests this? All I've seen is references to the 980's DP performance.

Let's compare:

Model - SP/DP (in GFLOPS) - Die Size - Transistor Count (in millions)
770 - 3213/134 - 294mm - 3540
780 - 3977/166 - 561mm - 7080
780 Ti - 5046/210 - 561mm - 7080
Titan - 4500/1300-1500 - 561mm - 7080
Titan Black - 5121/1707 - 561mm - 7080

980 - 4612/144 - 398mm - 5200

[All data provided by wikipedia]


After doing some math, what I do see is that Maxwell may have a DP performance about 1/32 of SP for the consumer parts, whereas Kepler had about 1/24.
However, Titan had between 1/4 and 1/5th the performance, and Titan Black had 1/3.

If we extrapolate that with Maxwell, it's likely that a full 985 Ti type of product would likely have around 6912/216 SP to DP. That's likely a low-end guess, based solely on dividing SP/DP into SMMs and extrapolating that to 24 SMMs for the GM200. This may not be a whole picture, as other factors come into play. For instance, making that same comparison of SP/DP to SMM count, the 970 has a lower factor, which demonstrates that the L2 cache and potentially memory controller configuration are likely involved in final compute performance

Now, as DP performance relates to transistor count, the 980 actually has a higher ratio than the 780. It is lower than the 780 Ti. However, this may not be an apt comparison, as the 980 is closer to the 770 in die-configuration. If we compare to that, the GK104 does have a higher ratio, however, it's ratio of DP/SP is essentially the same as the 780 and 780 Ti.

Which means it is harder to actually make a fair guess of what a Titan X class of card would do, at best guess we can possibly get a rough estimate of a consumer-variant of the GM200.

Again, consider these DP/SP values:
780 - 0.04174
780 Ti - 0.04162
Titan - 0.22̅
Titan Black - 0.33̅

980 - 0.03122

So for Maxwell, it does seem obvious that the SP performance has been targeted more strongly than in Maxwell, but not extensively.


I would also say any consumer variant, such as a 985 Ti, will have higher compute performance in both SP and DP compared to the 780 Ti, but it won't be significant on the DP side of the house, essentially any increase owing only to the nearly 1 billion extra transistors over GK110.

Of course, we don't know HOW Nvidia actually removes DP performance, so the DP/SP ratio for a GM200 consumer part might be higher just for the sake of having a little more than past parts. Obviously the actual GPU can handle a much higher DP capability, but I don't know how they achieve this, and if it is a direct scaled factor or simply chosen at will.


And how do you convert those numbers to what a Titan X might achieve?

If you compare the numbers, the Titan had a ~534% relative increase in DP/SP ratio compared to the 780.
The Titan Black? ~800% increase!

Let's try to extrapolate that kind of performance for Titan X from a potential 985 Ti, using the potential values I presented earlier.

Let's also rethink the nomenclature 985 Ti, and settle on 985. This would represent the first consumer release of a GM200, which, as we saw with the GK110, was later refreshed with further performance in the 780 Ti and Titan Black models.

This 985 has 6912 SP, 216 DP, or 0.03125 (DP/SP). Using a modest 500% increase, we would have a 0.15625 DP/SP ratio.

Let's assume that the Titan X has, oh, 7200 GFLOPS for SP performance, a modest increase over this imagined 985. That brings us to 1125 GFLOPS for DP.

That would be above the Titan but not the Titan Black. Perhaps they skip the idea of a refresh and release the most they can in this Titan X so that it's DP performance may be greater than the Titan Black from the start.

For this, we'll again make the SP performance 7200, just in case that is all they can eek out of Maxwell. While the 780 and 780 Ti had nearly the same ratio comparing DP to SP, the 780 Ti did see a significant jump in SP performance (~1000 GFLOPS SP advantage). I won't further muddy this scenario up by attempting to match those same maneuvers for the sake of brevity, not to mention this may as well by all imaginary numbers until we have confirmed specs for the Titan X.

But let us wrap this up. At 7200 GFLOPS of SP performance, an 800% increase would be: 1800 GFLOPS of DP performance.
A small bump over Titan Black: 7200/1800 over 5121/1707. A fairly significant SP increase but modest DP increase.

With that said, it will be rather interesting to see what they managed to extract out of the GM200. And whatever we see, is that the max from the start? Or might they have a refresh down the line?

I'd be shocked if they release a Titan that costs more than the Titan X ever did, yet does not perform the same in Double Precision compute.


For those that want to see the numbers I worked with, and if they want to extrapolate any other fantasies, be my guest.


The fact NV is skipping Maxwell altogether for Tesla is telling, IMHO.
 

Headfoot

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2008
4,444
641
126
I'm curious how everyone is so confident that a GM200 Titan X would had terrible DP performance compared to the previous Titan.

Where is the evidence that suggests this? All I've seen is references to the 980's DP performance.
Holy wall of text Batman.

The DP thing is a wholly unconfirmed rumor at this point. Could be total bunk
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Holy wall of text Batman.

The DP thing is a wholly unconfirmed rumor at this point. Could be total bunk

Well it seems that on total face value, it isn't so much as bunk as exaggerated. That it is 1/32 instead of 1/24 holds true, on the GeForce brand parts. Just like 1/24 didn't play a role at all for the original Titan launches, I don't think 1/32 will play much into the new Titan X.

Perhaps on a measure of DP performance per die area or per transistor count, Maxwell may be less capable, but transistor count is also increased comparing GM200 to GK110.

Also, yes, wall of text I got carried away, and truly interested into what the final result would be using only mathematical guessing.
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
8
91
No Maxwell Tesla might mean that more of those 8B transistors will go towards gaming performance...

Very true.

What confuses me is that the 'essence' of what made a Titan a Titan before, isn't there this time around. Sure it is faster and has more memory, but it is just a souped-up 980 GTX.

Should be a great performer though!
 

FatherMurphy

Senior member
Mar 27, 2014
229
18
81
Wow, I didn't know that NV was skipping Maxwell as a Tesla card. Thanks for the info.

If NV stripped Big Maxwell of its GPGPU goodies and just makes a straight up gaming chip, but huge, it would be a big departure from their past three generations... but it should be a beastly performer.
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
8
91
Wow, I didn't know that NV was skipping Maxwell as a Tesla card. Thanks for the info.

If NV stripped Big Maxwell of its GPGPU goodies and just makes a straight up gaming chip, but huge, it would be a big departure from their past three generations... but it should be a beastly performer.

Yeah, for sure.

I didn't realize the Tesla angle until I was researching more into the DP and Maxwell issue. Pascal should be a pretty huge jump for the Tesla products...

Titan looks to be a pure gaming monster.
 
Mar 10, 2006
11,715
2,012
126
If the gaming performance of this chip is significantly improved over the 980, and the card is priced at ~$999, a couple of 980s may end up in the FS/FT forum...
 

Railgun

Golden Member
Mar 27, 2010
1,289
2
81
I'm curious how everyone is so confident that a GM200 Titan X would had terrible DP performance compared to the previous Titan.

Not so much confidence, hence the SWAG, as rumors are just that...rumors. As they say, the proof's in the puddin'.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
You have to be a mug to buy this GPU for gaming.

That's a bit harsh.

Some people can simply afford it and don't care that nVidia is just raking them over the coals. I have a hard time with people justifying the price because of Titan's DP performance. The rest of the card and it's drivers are not designed to take advantage of the DP capabilities.

Tahiti had great DP performance (1/3) for a consumer card, but who really cares? It's not like (almost) anyone who needs DP can use a consumer product in their work. There are a few exceptions, but not too many. Not enough to support the manufacturing of such a product.

There's a reason nVidia doesn't actively market Titan as a "prosumer" card. They'd then have to offer support and be responsible for making it actually function in that role. It's a role it isn't designed for. Not any more than Tahiti was. It's purely an e-peen product.
 

raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
4,093
1,475
136
That's a bit harsh.

Some people can simply afford it and don't care that nVidia is just raking them over the coals. I have a hard time with people justifying the price because of Titan's DP performance. The rest of the card and it's drivers are not designed to take advantage of the DP capabilities.

Tahiti had great DP performance (1/3) for a consumer card, but who really cares? It's not like (almost) anyone who needs DP can use a consumer product in their work. There are a few exceptions, but not too many. Not enough to support the manufacturing of such a product.

There's a reason nVidia doesn't actively market Titan as a "prosumer" card. They'd then have to offer support and be responsible for making it actually function in that role. It's a role it isn't designed for. Not any more than Tahiti was. It's purely an e-peen product.

I don't accept that. CUDA is a much more developed ecosystem and there is a market for a Geforce with full double precision performance. HPC programmers, students and scientists who need double precision performance. The fact is most of them are in the CUDA ecosystem and using CUDA based software and programming tools. So yes there is a market and Nvidia is tapping into it. People who buy Titan-X for flagship GPU performance will be embarassed if R9 390X beats it fair and square and if Titan-X is a full GM200. Of course Nvidia will try to get back the crown by raising the clocks but then thats not going to really matter. Because all that matters then is the OC headroom on R9 390X vs GM200 (avg vs avg and max vs max)
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,271
323
126
If the gaming performance of this chip is significantly improved over the 980, and the card is priced at ~$999, a couple of 980s may end up in the FS/FT forum...

That's why I doubt the price will be $999. At that price it's more appealing than two 980s. At the current pricing of the 980 the Titan X almost HAS to be at least 1200-1300.
 

nvgpu

Senior member
Sep 12, 2014
629
202
81
http://techgage.com/news/a-super-quick-look-at-nvidias-geforce-gtx-titan-x/

When NVIDIA unveiled its monstrous GeForce GTX TITAN X earlier this week, I had guessed that it would be about two months before it launched to market. Well, on account of the fact that a sample hit our lab this morning, I think it might be a good idea to backtrack on that.
Reviewers already receiving their review cards. Guessing reviews should be available on March 17, after Jen-Hsun's keynote at GTC 2015.
 
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