TO ALL CAR EXPERTS...a question.....

The Wildcard

Platinum Member
Oct 31, 1999
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Okay, i purcahsed a 1998 Toyota Camry 2 years ago and it got great gas mileage in both the city and freeway. For the first year, it was heavily used on the freeway and rarely in the city. But starting from last year, we started to use it heavily in the city too and i calculated that we got around 19-20 miles per gallon.

For the past couple of months, however, we have been getting POOR gas mileage. we have been getting 10 miles per gallon.

Does anybody have any explanation on why this is happening? We just had a scheduled major tune up about 1 month ago and everything checked out fine. And the CURRENT MILEAGE IS around 14,500 miles.

 

BCYL

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2000
7,803
0
71
Something is seriously wrong if you drop 10 miles per gallon... if it drops a couple, it can be your driving style or some other thing, but 10! I would really suggest bringing it back to the place you got it serviced and have them check them out. It should be free of charge anyways...
 

Farbio

Diamond Member
Apr 9, 2000
3,855
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hmmm...sounds shady on the mechanics side. is everything working normally? accelerating just as fast, idling smoothly? it sounds almost as if when they changed the plugs or whatever they did they made a cylinder not fire...that would explain the excess gas usage at least from what i've seen. i mean some things would explain a few mpg, but not a 10mpg drop like that
 

The Wildcard

Platinum Member
Oct 31, 1999
2,743
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Well we had the problems even before the tune up and we were hoping that the tune up would fix the problem. Before the tune up, we had 2 other maintence jobs done. The first was an oil filter/change about maybe a 1 year ago and we also had a tire rotation done a couple of months ago.

On a side note, about a year ago, one of my friends accidently pushed the gear change from DRIVE to NEUTRAL when we were going about 55 mph on the freeway. Of course we immedatley set it back to drive, but i was wondering if that might have damaged my car. It only lasted about 5-7 seconds.
 

geno

Lifer
Dec 26, 1999
25,074
4
0
About the swithing to Neutral thing. It wouldn't do any damage to the engine. Unless you had your foot planted on the gas while it was in neutral and it was revving way too high, there shouldn't be anything wrong from that happening. Usually the transmission goes smoothly into drive when you put it back from neutral, without any bump or anything, so you should be fine.
 

purplehayes

Golden Member
Mar 31, 2000
1,517
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What is a major tune up on a car that only has 14,500 miles. I could see having it at 145,000 but not at such a low mileage.

Take it to a different shop than the one that did the 'major' tune up and have them look at it. I've never worked on a Camry but I pretty sure there isn't too much to do under the hood with such low mileage.

PH
 

BCYL

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2000
7,803
0
71
Or just bring it back to the place you got the major tune-up, tell them the problem only occurred AFTER they did the service, and have them fix it up for free!
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
Two guesses... sounds like a sensor is screwed up or disconnected. I've even heard that aerosol spray with silicone in it can screw up the oxygen sensor. Gads, I hate this "new car" crap!

Second guess is the emergency brake stuck on. That's it, I'm out of guesses :Q
 

Soybomb

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2000
9,505
1
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Ornery has the best guessing so far, oxygen sensor depending on if the engine has ingesting something it shouldn't, with such low miles it should be fine unless something has happened to it. If it did and it was running too rich which sounds like your problem it could destroy the catalytic convertor and that would really hit the gas mileage and performance. If you take a rubber mallet or something like that and somewhat gently bang the cat and hear rattling or marbles rolling around noise, the cat is bad.
Its worth checking out and being sure a brake isn't draggins somewhere too, there is a definate problem there, you sure you're putting it in D instead of 2nd?
 

The Wildcard

Platinum Member
Oct 31, 1999
2,743
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Ornery and Soybomb and all: Thanks for the indepth info. Unforutnately i don't know much about cars so could you guys explain your previous post about the catalyic converter?
 

Soybomb

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2000
9,505
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Hmmmmm well if you get underneath the car and follow your exhaust pipe from the muffler forward you'll come across something else that looks like another muffler closer to the engine side, maybe like right underneath where the arm rest would be? Hopefully it will be obvious, if there are others that might look like one let me know and maybe I can be more descriptive somehow!
 

Farbio

Diamond Member
Apr 9, 2000
3,855
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wildcard....the cat convertor takes out alot of the bad stuff in your exhaust...like most of the carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons that the government loves so much. were it bad, it could cause backflow into your engine and prevent alot of the proper ignition and make it run harder
 

The Wildcard

Platinum Member
Oct 31, 1999
2,743
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Woah, thanks Farbio and all. I am gonna call up the Toyota Service center that dealt with my car and tell them about the problem and also mention about the CAT CONVERTER. THANKS FOR ALL OF THE INFO.

BTW: Does anybody know if this is usually checked during a Tune Up?
 

GroundOO

Senior member
Mar 14, 2000
553
0
0
Is it 4 cylinder or a V6? if its v6 it would probably have a little "v6" on the back. I say this because if a cylinder wasn't firing it would be more noticable as far as performance goes if its a 4 cyl. (1/4 as opposed to 1/6) Would non firing cylinders cause a check-engine-light? I've got a '92 Camry V6 XLE, they're good cars, mines like new due to good maintanence. Ooh, another good suggestion, call CarTalk. They're also in my newspaper, maybe in yours too, you could write in.

Good Luck,
Chris aka CygnusX1
 

RentaCow

Senior member
Oct 10, 1999
246
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0
Wildcard, contrary to what some people in here are suggesting, I seriously doubt you have ANY problems with your catlytic converter (or as my grandfather calls it, the catholic converter).

Catlytic converters are simply "afterburners." They reignite the exhaust gases to burn your fuel more completely.

If your catlytic converter is not functioning properly, it will not reburn your exhaust gases, and the result will be that your emissions will be more polluting to the atmosphere. This will not harm gas mileage in the slightest. This reignition of your exhaust gases produces lots of heat, but it is completely wasted. No cars try to recapture this "extra" energy and use if for making the vehicle get better gas mileage.

The only other possible problem relating to the catlytic converter is that some of the pieces inside have broken loose and are somehow impeding the flow of exhaust. Pieces do occasionally break loose inside them, but they aren't supposed to be designed such that they could impede exhaust flow. That is, the aren't supposed to be shaped such that they clog up the flow.

Even so, I have heard of people claiming their exhaust systems "exploded" where a bunch of crap (including sparks and stuff) flies out of their tail pipe after the catlytic convertor breaks down and peices clog up the exhaust system.

The fact is, exhaust gases have TREMENDOUS pressure if they cannot get properly exhausted to the atmosphere. Try this experiment for kicks: place a potato up the end of your exhaust pipe while your car is turned off. Then, try to start the car.

If may have some difficulty getting started, but the potato should come flying out of there at some pretty extreme velocity when it does. Of course, don't try this experiment with anyone standing behind the car... Duh...

Anyways, if your catylitic convertor was somehow impeding the flow of exhaust, chances are the backpressure alone would be plenty to open up the clog by exhausting the offending material.

So...... Simply, your catlytic converter is NOT your problem. If it was, you would also hear some noise coming from below your vehicle while it was running as well (which you didn't describe). Of course it is concievably possible that your exhaust system is only partially clogged (hence poor MPG's, low performance, but no "explosion" removing the clog), however, I find that MOST unlikely. There are far better explanations than the catyltic converter that would cause low MPG's... Not to mention the fact that catyltic converters never die after driving with them a mere 15K miles. I've had one get loose parts inside after about 101K miles, but NOT 15K. That is practically a brand new car/catylitic converter.


Others in this thread have mentioned broken sensors (ex: Oxygen sensor). Again, I am skeptical that this is your problem. All of your various sensors are wired directly up to your "ECM" (engine control module... aka, car "computer&quot. If any one of your sensors are malfunctioning, they will be providing the ECM (car computer) wrong information. Normally when a sensor is not working properly, it will be reporting information to the ECM that is WAY off of what it should be. If this is the case, the ECM is smart enough to know that something is not right and will automatically trigger your "Check Engine" light to illuminate on your intrument cluster.

Since you didn't describe the check engine light to be turning on, I can presume that this isn't your problem (most likely).

Of course, if a sensor is only "a little wacked" it could theoretically report mis-info. to the ECM, but the ECM would determine it to be within normal parameters and operate based on that info anyways without realizing that it is faulty. But again, that is fairly unlikely considering the other possibilities that could be ailing your vehicle. Oh yeah, also sensors will almost never die within a mere 15K miles after getting out of the factory. They normally take a fair amount of abuse...

Things I would check to see what is wrong with the vehicle:

1. Compression test on all cylinders (is that a 4 banger or 6 banger or what? I don't know what Camry's normally have). Basically, this tests to see how well all of your cylinders seal up and can contain an explosion. This test will reveal LOTS of information if you have a problem such as a blown head gasket (sounds like a possiblity to me based upon what you describe), or not properly sealing valves, or somehow not properly sealing piston rings. IMO, this is most likely one of your problems.

Tell me. Did you ever make your car overheat lately just before the problems with MPG's began? If you run your car too hot (due to not enough water, not enough oil, broken water pump, or whatever else), you can warp you head and possibly engine block. This results in a "blown head gasket". Once blown, your cylinders will ingite each other when they aren't supposed to. This could definitely cause the drop in MPG's. Not to mention low performance...

Most likely a blown head gasket will NOT trigger the Check engine light to illuminate (IMO). No Camry engine I am aware of has pressure sensors inside the cylinders. For that matter, I've never heard of such a thing (although it might exist in racing cars or something, I donno)...

Anyways, since you don't know much about cars, you'll have to take it to a repair shop for them to run this test. All your cylinders should be within 15 PSI of each other (that is, your highest compression cylinder should be no more than 15 PSI higher than your lowest compression cylinder), and should be within the specifcations listed in your vehicle's shop manual. You'll probably have to buy one of these to find that info out.

2. I'd check to make sure all your cylinders are getting the spark properly. Check all spark plugs for proper gapping. OTOH, I doubt this is a problem since your car is so new and has so few miles on it. Even your factory original spark plugs should be gapped fairly well (that is, useable) after a mere 15K miles. Make sure your spark plug wires are fully attached to the spark plug ends on the engine.

Other than that, there isn't a whole lot I can suggest without a WHOLE LOT MORE INFO about your car. I need info such as: how is performance, has it dropped, is there water in the oil (oil would look milky/whiteish), is there oil in the water, is your car fuel injected or carberated (sp?) (almost certainly fuel injected, but I know nothing specific about Camry engines), do you ever smell fuel inside the engine compartment, did the check engine light ever turn on, does the car make any unusual noises, how does the exhaust look, is it smokey/white looking or anything, does your exhaust smell at all like raw gasoline, and pretty much anything else relevant relating to your car.

But be forewarned. Normally a large drop in MPG's indicates a serious problem with your car. If you are very lucky, you'll get by with something very cheap like new spark plugs. But normally, large drops in MPG's indicates something very serious such as a blown head gasket/burnt valves. Those types of repairs easily range up into the several hundred dollar+ range to repair... Unless of course you educate yourself up on auto mechanics and learn how to fix it yourself (something I would recommend to anyone).
 

RentaCow

Senior member
Oct 10, 1999
246
0
0
Oh yeah... Wildcard, they do not check Catylitic converters during so called "tune up"s. The simple fact is they rarely break down (easily outlasting the rest of the vehicle in many cases), and even if they were broken the most probable effect would be that you would fail an emissions test (or possibly a new and somewhat frightening rattling noise while the engine is running, even though it isn't serious at all).

Also... About shifting from drive to neutral while moving along at high speed. Don't worry about it at all. No damage was done. There was also never a potential for damage to occurr. You could do that all day and it wouldn't hurt a thing. As for engine overspeed, that evidently wasn't a problem either. Modern cars are ECM limited to some high RPM value (ex: mine is limited to 5800 RPM), at which point the ECM totally shuts off the fuel injectors such that the engine gets NO gas for awhile until the RPM's fall back within safe range.

Not to mention the fact that since no parts went flying out of your engine at the time, your engine easily took the high RPM's for a little while. Engines are built to handle extremly high RPM's even though we normally don't ever use them. Of course, continuously running at high RPM will cause excessive engine wear...
 

The Wildcard

Platinum Member
Oct 31, 1999
2,743
0
0
Woah, RENTACOW, thanks for all of the info. Here's some info. I have a 1998 Toyota Camry V4. So it has a 4 cylinder engine.

Furthermore, no i did not notice any increase in the engine temperature. And no i didn't see a CHECK ENGINE warning light go on as well.

BUT, i did notice this, and i also see this on many cars. During the startup of my car, i see some drops of fluid SPURT out of the exaust.

Oh and speaking of the ECM and related things...this could be important. I noticed that around the same time the low mpg started, my FUEL GAUGE NEEDLE wouldn't rise up to the MAX LINE even after I filled it up to the max at the gas station.


PLUS, I also got convinced to do a FUEL INJECTION MATINENCE "thingy" on my car at the last tune up that i mentioned. I know it was just a a ploy from the dealer to squeeze more money but i did it anywaz. Sorry for the vagueness.


 

Soybomb

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2000
9,505
1
0
Ahhhhhhh I've seen a clogged cat more than one, if the flow is reduced by 75% it cuts stuff down alot and won't necessarily free itsself! Also some cars, say Chryslers won't set a ccheck engine light or even a code if the oxygen sensor is no longer working properly. The only time the 84-94 computer will set a code is if there is no input, if it gets contaminated and shows lean all the time, the computer will dump in all the fuel it can and it wouldn't have any problem doing it or letting you know, and the extra fuel could take out the cat! The compression test is a very good idea though, a leakdown test if you go to the mechanic might not be a bad idea either depending on what the compression test shows.
Good luck
 
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