To Anyone Who Loved Everquest- or Challenging MMO's

[laezyre]

I'll throw a newbie death story in too. I was a young newbie ogre in the Oggok area exploring the jungle(and getting lost), when I saw this slim NPC hiding at the edge of the zone to the swamp. I inched forward for a better look, when BAM! I was dead. I had to die several more times trying to recover my corpse until I gave up on that idea. I later got even by repeatedly killing that NPC over and over again for 2 hours after leveling up. Revenge was sweet.

 

[akugami]

I budget money every year for a little bit of gambling. I'm setting some of that aside for this. So far, in all the interviews and stuff that was posted, I'm hearing all of the right things. It seems like a modernized EQ1 and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Updated combat mechanics that are still EQ1 based. For example, more reactionary and thought based combat without needing to spam 50 hot buttons in combat. Mobs are dangerous. No more "spam AE spell" combat like you see in WoW and other recent MMO's. The mobs can and will tear you a new one if you over pull. Maybe I'll have my beloved enchanter back...

Grouping is back. No more bland character classes that can do everything. The only caution is that we need to avoid the "holy trinity" syndrome. Every class needs to be able to bring something to the table in a group.

No more 50 zillion quests per quest hub. That was honestly retarded and quickly tiring. Daily quests was just another type of grind and I grew to hate this more than XP grinding.

No more gear redundancy from what they're saying. If you notice with stuff like WoW, every time a new expansion comes out, most of the gear in the previous expansion almost instantly becomes junk. Whereas if you recall with EQ1, you can have gear from 3 expansions back that are still useful.

 

[laezyre]

Yea, it looks like Brad and the group are trying to improve on the current state of MMO's while retaining the feel of EQ1. I played on p1999 for about 2 years and really loved it. Those guys are an amazing bunch running that show. I logged in and immediately felt like it was 1999 again. This time I played an enchanter, instead of my SK. It was like getting another chance. P1999 is helping to promote pantheon as well. I'm sure everyone who enjoys p1999 will give pantheon a go.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

One thing I would to see in this or any other mmorpg is the gear progression to require using a site like Allakhazam, as EQ 1 did, to plot your gear camps and such. I suspect the direction MMORPGs (or at least the ones that actually have gear dependence) are going is generic loot reward choices, ie get nearly the same thing off similar difficulty kills no matter where.

 

[Markbnj]

One thing I would to see in this or any other mmorpg is the gear progression to require using a site like Allakhazam, as EQ 1 did, to plot your gear camps and such. I suspect the direction MMORPGs (or at least the ones that actually have gear dependence) are going is generic loot reward choices, ie get nearly the same thing off similar difficulty kills no matter where.

I'd love to see this too, and if the game is designed from the ground up, including the business model, for a niche market then it might work. But the track record of other attempts isn't good. The thing that WoW really did to us all was set the standard of attracting huge numbers of players with a pretty and harmless world. Now that is what every investor and CEO wants as a return.

It should be possible to be in this business for a niche market if they'll pay. Is, say, 500k people paying $10/month really such a small business? I'll take $60m a year revenue. You should be able to do a lot with that. But there aren't many examples of small teams actually making it to that level.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

I don't get that EQ "style" has to be niche market...sure, EQ as it was in 1999, yes, that's going to drive people away and have a limited audience - sitting in front of your spellbook for 5 minutes to recover mana, for example. But with things of that nature excised...isn't WoW just as gear dependent as EQ? I haven't played WoW so I can't say for certain...

 

[Thebobo]

Spectres to dock!
Slate to tunnel!
Selling all Torch 2!

Remember what ghastly zone this was from?

Train Right!

 

[laezyre]

Hey, log on to: http://www.project1999.com/ at 7pm EST tonight(in 25 minutes) to hear the p1999 team, Brad Mcquaid, Salim Grant, and Ben du la Durantaye discuss the current state of Pantheon. It's informal and they take questions.

 

[Oakenfold]

As much as I would like to see this succeed we have seen former projects by McQuaid fail. Why will this be different? Seems exactly like the marketing promotion that was Vanguard.

I recognize that other hands were in the pot for Vanguard but why is this time different? Supposedly complete creative control was in Sigil's hands. How is this not another cash grab?

 

[Worthington]

This. You lost me at Brad Mcquaid. He tanked Vanguard. He'll do it again

 

[laezyre]

A valid point, but there are differences this time. Check out his team of experienced developers. Theses guys have done well in the past. Also, Brad answers to only the players this time, not Sony or any corporation. He's on his own schedule and won't have the rug pulled out from him if Sony gets impatient. Check out the site for yourself before you dismiss it. I don't see many other promising MMO's in the works anytime soon.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

^^don't kid yourself he is answering to his bank account first also has he 100% committed to not accepting publisher money? What happens if he does?
I would love an epic not so easy mmo again but I'll wait until we see more from this project
As far as I am concerned there is a 100% chance that an mmo I am excited about will fail. I'd list them but I doubt anyone cares

 

[laezyre]

Brad Mcquaid addresses this exact concern on this interview starting at the 20:50 mark. Check it out for his direct response on this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45XrbsBt34c

 

[Oakenfold]

Brad Mcquaid addresses this exact concern on this interview starting at the 20:50 mark. Check it out for his direct response on this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45XrbsBt34c

Thanks, I checked it out. To be honest I did not hear anything that would make me reconsider my reservations.

 

[Sheep221]

I budget money every year for a little bit of gambling. I'm setting some of that aside for this. So far, in all the interviews and stuff that was posted, I'm hearing all of the right things. It seems like a modernized EQ1 and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Updated combat mechanics that are still EQ1 based. For example, more reactionary and thought based combat without needing to spam 50 hot buttons in combat. Mobs are dangerous. No more "spam AE spell" combat like you see in WoW and other recent MMO's. The mobs can and will tear you a new one if you over pull. Maybe I'll have my beloved enchanter back...

Grouping is back. No more bland character classes that can do everything. The only caution is that we need to avoid the "holy trinity" syndrome. Every class needs to be able to bring something to the table in a group.

No more 50 zillion quests per quest hub. That was honestly retarded and quickly tiring. Daily quests was just another type of grind and I grew to hate this more than XP grinding.

No more gear redundancy from what they're saying. If you notice with stuff like WoW, every time a new expansion comes out, most of the gear in the previous expansion almost instantly becomes junk. Whereas if you recall with EQ1, you can have gear from 3 expansions back that are still useful.

WoW gear differences now range from one patch to another, at the time I played last time which was quite long ago, it was already strongly present in the game. Yes, if the new expansion came your best end game gear was worse than quest rewards awarded in new expansion zone on your first level up after cap increase.

On the sidenote I think that there won't be challenging MMOs anymore, especially because they are not new thing now, firing up eq, wow etc at the time they were new was really hardcore and stunning fun experience, but since every mmo player played same repeating cycle of grinding, PVE and PVP than there is nothing challenging in it anymore. Mechanics change abit, lore changes abit, but that's all. In the case of wow, raiding and leveling became much worse actually since the instances were shortened and leveling was boosted via various heirlooms and recruit a friend systems, not to mention they gonna offer instant leveled characters in the next expansion. Playerbases of these games are reduced to 1/3 or less they were just few years ago. The hardcore players are leaving because of boredom and new players won't stay long because everyone else still playing is much more powerful and won't be playing with them. Or on other hand the game became so easy that new player is powerful same way as the hardcore player.

MMOs are quite short lived idea, since they transferred gaming from playing skills to valuables(characters, gear, items, currencies).

 

[Bateluer]

This. You lost me at Brad Mcquaid. He tanked Vanguard. He'll do it again

Correction, Microsoft and Sony tanked Vanguard.

I decided to kick in 25 dollars for this. Would have been a bit more, but the middling tiers sold out. 2017 is a long time to wait though.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

Thanks, I checked it out. To be honest I did not hear anything that would make me reconsider my reservations.

I find it interesting that part of his answer to Vanguard's failure is that he and his team know more or have more experience or whatever he said. I didn't realize his experience was in question; I mean he was on EQ in 1999, and that's a long time ago...

But hey, just rebuild EQ with new graphics and slight improvements across the board and I'm sold, even on a monthly sub. Doesn't mean I will kickstart tho!

Grouping is back. No more bland character classes that can do everything. The only caution is that we need to avoid the "holy trinity" syndrome. Every class needs to be able to bring something to the table in a group.

No more gear redundancy from what they're saying. If you notice with stuff like WoW, every time a new expansion comes out, most of the gear in the previous expansion almost instantly becomes junk. Whereas if you recall with EQ1, you can have gear from 3 expansions back that are still useful.

While the holy trinity may represent the base (or least safest) group make-up, I always thought in EQ that every class did offer something. BTW, I know many people think of the holy trinity as tank/healer/dps but as a result of EQ I think of tank/healer/slower. And actually I prefer groups with tank/healer/slower/puller. Monks(pullers) are good dps, enchanters enhanced tank dps with haste plus mezzes, etc. Some classes in EQ weren't required but I think all of them brought something to the table.

 

[laezyre]

I agree waiting 3 years is not great, but I appreciate the grass roots ability to help start up companies you believe in. It's expensive and risky to start an MMO. Having a company like Sony hold the purse strings can cause all sorts of problems(forcing an early release, pressuring the devs to make another WoW clone, etc). Giving the devs some money to play with helps foster independence from corporate interests. We want more people making MMO's, more creativity and risk taking. Otherwise we get the safe corporate games that we're all sick of by now.

 

[Grimbones]

I'm not sure i understand the venom/grudge holding that is going on towards Brad. Yes, the game did not come out the way he wanted it, or that i wanted it for that matter. I played the game, and some of the game play content early on was actually great. I think it's ridiculous to say the game was barely better than EQ graphically...it was a great looking game, although it was not my favorite aesthetic--i prefer a darker game with shadows, and realistic lighting.

A lot of people enjoyed Diplomacy..it was not really my thing, and it probably took away from some polish in other areas, but it was hardly a throw away thing. Crafting was probably better than any MMO i have seen to date...it had a lot going for it, it just did not get the polish it deserved because it was released early. He may have brought some of that on himself--which i am not arguing, but saying he's obviously going to screw up another game is a bit of a stretch also.

As an orc, the initial quest had me crashing off of a boat like it was D-Day, which felt exciting...don't get me started on how MMOs have decided to go with a starting Island or a starting series of quests that everyone does. It's lazy, and it's so dull.

What excites me about this game is that it's not going to be a "themepark" design.

Who knows if it will live up to expectations when there is so little about it that we know? I'm not saying it will be a huge success, but it at least gives me hope for the MMO genre, which was becoming more and more stale with each release.

Deserves a bump at least, IMO.

 

[Worthington]

Correction, Microsoft and Sony tanked Vanguard.

I decided to kick in 25 dollars for this. Would have been a bit more, but the middling tiers sold out. 2017 is a long time to wait though.

Completely disagree. When things went south, Mcquaid totally disappeared. I had acquaintances that worked for Sigil at the time and no one had anything good to say about him. A number of articles came out saying pretty much the same thing. Did he get put in a bad situation? Yeah, he did. Did he do a damn thing to salvage the situation? nope.

I hope it works, and ends up being a great game. I hope I'm wrong. But I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[laezyre]

We're never going to know exactly what happened. According to Mcquaid on his Boogie video, this was a very dark time for him and he believes he learned from mistakes. He seemed very humble and didn't blame things on anyone else. I'm sure the last thing he wants is another Vanguard situation. I think he deserves another chance. Vanguard wasn't a bad game in the end, but it needed more time and more work that Mcquaid wasn't able to do.

 

[Worthington]

no it could have been a fantastic game, for sure. Hopefully the next attempt will flourish.

 

[Gryz]

Correction, Microsoft and Sony tanked Vanguard.

Are you sure ?

Right after Vanguard failed, there was a lot of talk about it. One thing that kept coming back was how McQuaid did a terrible job. Supposedly he hardly showed up at the office during the last 4-5 months before release (aka crunch time). At the time, I've read an anonymous interview with an ex-Sigil member (McQuaid's company). Who had all kinds of nasty things to say about McQuaid. One of the things I vaguely remember was that McQuaid had a serious drugs-problem. Even after release, and when Vanguard had failed and the company was being killed off, he still didn't show up.

E.g. read this, from a Vanguard fan-site.
http://www.thegrouchygamer.com/?p=39

So yes, McQuaid was certainly responsible for the failure of Vanguard.

Besides all of that, I think there was a serious problem with the game-design in that game. I've played Vanguard, I've played a lot of WoW. I've played many other MMOs (although most not longer than 2-3 months). I love it when an MMO tries to be "a world", and not a game. E.g. not too many instant teleports, no flying mounts, etc, to make the world look bigger. I don't like easy-mode leveling. I don't like free epix. Etc, etc.

But at the same time, modern MMOs did make improvements over the old EQ1. E.g. I love group content, but you also want people to be able to do meaningful things solo, when they can not, or do not want to play in a group. Travel-time is good. But you don't want people to spend half their time traveling, or make travel prevent group-play. Crafting is supposed to support the game, not be a chore in itself. You don't want people blocked from content by other players, so instanced content certainly is needed. (Of course you can have non-instanced dungeons too, but not solely). Gear needs to be soul-bound, or else 99% of all gear will become useless in a month (in Vanguard you could pass gear around to any character). Stats on gear needs to be meaningful (Vanguard had low level gear with better stats than high level gear). Etc, etc.

I was not impressed with Vanguard. I don't care about bugs. Bugs will be fixed some day. The real problem is the design vision, and the game-system designs. Those need to be good. And Vanguard's game-systems were terrible. Really terrible.

I wouldn't touch anything that McQuaid was involved in, not even with a 20-foot pole.

 

[laezyre]

Gryz,

Brad McQuaid made some mistakes. He's admitted it. We'll never know exactly what happened, but he's said that he has learned from experience and that the Vanguard launch was a very hard time in his life. I've never seen any proof of drug use, only unsubstantiated rumors. We do know that he was pressured to release Vanguard 6 months early and that SOE disbanded his company, Sigil. He was then demoted at SOE. We also know that Microsoft decided that they didn't want to support an MMO anymore at this time. One could argue that this would be a very difficult situation for anyone who worked so hard on a project.

It sounds like you just don't like the "vision" McQuaid has. That's fine, everyone has their idea of a good MMO. I certainly wouldn't want all items being soul bound. That kills the economy. I wouldn't want most dungeons being instanced. Maybe a few at most. I prefer harder games with more social interaction, not easy mode with no meaningful grouping.
What we all need is more competition and less corporate influence. Playing it safe with large companies will only promote stagnation and WoW clones.

 

[Dumac]

Gryz,

Brad McQuaid made some mistakes. He's admitted it. We'll never know exactly what happened, but he's said that he has learned from experience and that the Vanguard launch was a very hard time in his life. I've never seen any proof of drug use, only unsubstantiated rumors. We do know that he was pressured to release Vanguard 6 months early and that SOE disbanded his company, Sigil. He was then demoted at SOE. We also know that Microsoft decided that they didn't want to support an MMO anymore at this time. One could argue that this would be a very difficult situation for anyone who worked so hard on a project.

It sounds like you just don't like the "vision" McQuaid has. That's fine, everyone has their idea of a good MMO. I certainly wouldn't want all items being soul bound. That kills the economy. I wouldn't want most dungeons being instanced. Maybe a few at most. I prefer harder games with more social interaction, not easy mode with no meaningful grouping.
What we all need is more competition and less corporate influence. Playing it safe with large companies will only promote stagnation and WoW clones.

Okay, Brad.