Today is Afghan election day.

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,128
5,657
126
Participation was down, especially in Taliban areas, but it sounds like it went fairly smoothly.
 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
1,855
0
0
Originally posted by: spidey07
Mission accomplished?

LOL, hahaha.... Oh you crack me up.

NATO/US will be in there for the next 50 years to bring it to 3rd world country status (Vs a god forsaken hole in the dirt stuck in 200BC, but with AK's) or everyone will leave declaring victory and it'll quietly revert back to it's previous state (and we all know what came of that).

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Both equally ugly options.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Americans don't care. We're sick of the wars, and disgusted we're still fighting them.

Obama needs a serious re-thinking of Afghanistan. It has become an unpopular war, especially within his own base. And he's escalating it.

It's a damn shame we continue spending hundreds of billions of dollars, every year, overseas, while he's checking for change under his couch cushions for health care.

We needed change, we needed desperately a new foreign policy, and we got the same shit, and it stinks.
 

Elias824

Golden Member
Mar 13, 2007
1,100
0
76
Originally posted by: bamacre
Americans don't care. We're sick of the wars, and disgusted we're still fighting them.

Obama needs a serious re-thinking of Afghanistan. It has become an unpopular war, especially within his own base. And he's escalating it.

It's a damn shame we continue spending hundreds of billions of dollars, every year, overseas, while he's checking for change under his couch cushions for health care.

We needed change, we needed desperately a new foreign policy, and we got the same shit, and it stinks.

What did you have in mind? know a better way of rebuilding a 3rd world country? Im sure you could do it within your first year in office.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Originally posted by: Elias824
Originally posted by: bamacre
Americans don't care. We're sick of the wars, and disgusted we're still fighting them.

Obama needs a serious re-thinking of Afghanistan. It has become an unpopular war, especially within his own base. And he's escalating it.

It's a damn shame we continue spending hundreds of billions of dollars, every year, overseas, while he's checking for change under his couch cushions for health care.

We needed change, we needed desperately a new foreign policy, and we got the same shit, and it stinks.

What did you have in mind? know a better way of rebuilding a 3rd world country? Im sure you could do it within your first year in office.

I have no freakin' idea on how to rebuild Afghanistan, and neither does anyone else.
 

Extelleron

Diamond Member
Dec 26, 2005
3,127
0
71
Originally posted by: Elias824
Originally posted by: bamacre
Americans don't care. We're sick of the wars, and disgusted we're still fighting them.

Obama needs a serious re-thinking of Afghanistan. It has become an unpopular war, especially within his own base. And he's escalating it.

It's a damn shame we continue spending hundreds of billions of dollars, every year, overseas, while he's checking for change under his couch cushions for health care.

We needed change, we needed desperately a new foreign policy, and we got the same shit, and it stinks.

What did you have in mind? know a better way of rebuilding a 3rd world country? Im sure you could do it within your first year in office.

I have in mind getting the hell out of Afghanistan and Iraq and leaving the Middle East alone. Nobody is going to get Afghanistan to become a civilized country anytime soon. We've been there for 8 years and now it is just getting ridiculous. We were there initially to stomp out Al Qaeda because of 9/11. That mission has been "accomplished" as best as it can be. There is no sense in wasting hundreds more lives and hundreds of billions more dollars in a useless fight against an idea. Sadly Obama doesn't understand this and neither do most politicans on either side.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Extelleron
Nobody is going to get Afghanistan to become a civilized country anytime soon.
I'd bet the Afghans would pull their country together if only we would let them be. They were on the right track back in the '70s, before we started dicking around there to lure the Soviets in.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,128
5,657
126
Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: Extelleron
Nobody is going to get Afghanistan to become a civilized country anytime soon.
I'd bet the Afghans would pull their country together if only we would let them be. They were on the right track back in the '70s, before we started dicking around there to lure the Soviets in.

It's not worth letting them try. The Taliban are willing to do just about anything. I'd say they are worse than Al Queda and without NATO keeping them busy I doubt Pakistan would last long.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,303
15
81
Originally posted by: Lemon law
the results will not be known for quite a few days

As opposed to Iran, where the results are magically known the moment the polls closed.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Originally posted by: Kadarin
Originally posted by: Lemon law
the results will not be known for quite a few days

As opposed to Iran, where the results are magically known the moment the polls closed.

Or the US, where Bush's cousin orders the election called for Bush at Fox News before any other network, in a race decided by (officially) 534 votes.
 

bbdub333

Senior member
Aug 21, 2007
684
0
0
You're a day late. Polls were closed about 14 hours before you posted your message.

Originally posted by: bamacre

I have no freakin' idea on how to rebuild Afghanistan, and neither does anyone else.

Plenty of people do. And they are.

Originally posted by: Extelleron
There is no sense in wasting hundreds more lives and hundreds of billions more dollars in a useless fight against an idea. Sadly Obama doesn't understand this and neither do most politicans on either side.

And sadly, you are too ignorant to see how important this war is.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Personally, I don't think understanding the Afghan war is all the difficult. And once we are honest about who the players are and what we are really fighting, then understanding how to win is not that hard.

We must first understand Nato is somewhat the 800 pound Gorilla here. Too strong to ever be dislodged, very mobiles meaning it can strike anywhere, but way way way too small to be everywhere at once in a way way way too big country.

Then there is corruption, the 1200 pound gorilla in Afghanistan, it rides on drug money and arms smuggling, and thrives in conditions of anarchy. And corruption has been the constant companion of the Nato occupation for 100% of the occupation. But corruption is such a nice doggie, as long as Nato leaves corruption alone, unlike other rascals, corruption does not shoot at Nato or set up bombs. As a result, In Afghanistan, everything is corrupt, the government is corrupt, the army are corrupt, the police are corrupt, the Provencal governors are corrupt, the courts don't function, and the Afghan people experience it on a daily basis.

Then the other 800 pound gorilla is the Taliban, the de evil bad guys that wear the black hats according to Nato. But still, a jonney come lately group in Afghan politics, whose rise can be traced to the civil war after the Russians left. And the only group now in Afghanistan with a proven record of combating corruption. And their Newt Gingrich 1994 contract with Afghanistan was live under our brutal rule and we will stamp out corruption. And one would have scour history long and deep to find another group, as brutal, as reactionary, and as inflexible.
But whatever anti corruption virtues the Taliban had are now changed since the Taliban, whatever that is, has now changed into a group whose main focus is fighting Nato and throwing the Western devil out. And now the Taliban has become synonymous with the collective Afghan and Pakistani insurgencies. A loose mix of old line Taliban leaders, spiced with a few Al-Quida types and foreign fighters, newly added are old line mujaheddin fighters who have little use for Taliban ideology, and much of the grunt troops come from old line tribal leaders who have seen their traditional way of life and power bases crumble. And in the process, the Afghan insurgencies are not above
making deals with corrupt war lords and thugs, so that they can continue to fight Nato.

And the last cast member in the cluster fuck Greek tragedy is the 50 pound monkey that the Afghan government now is.

And the clear current winner is Afghan corruption and the Afghan people understand it. Which is why this election may be important. Gone is the optimism that elected Karzai in 2004, when people actually dared to hope that Nato would be better and make progress. But Nato is still only a one trick pony, fighting only the Taliban and not combating corruption. And because Nato can't kill its way out of the Taliban problem, it simply means the anarchy and corruption will never end in a worthless land of barely habitable uplands. Unless one of two things happen. (1) Nato gives up and leaves. (2) Nato finally wises up, gets serious about fighting corruption, and then the Taliban will lose the popular support it needs to continue to exists.

But Afghanistan still has a huge strategic advantage as a possible oil pipe line route. But as long as anarchy rules the day, such a pipe line is impossible. But I am seriously beginning to wonder if that is the real Nato purpose, to hang around and make sure no one unfriendly to US interests builds such a pipe line through Afghanistan.
 

TheSkinsFan

Golden Member
May 15, 2009
1,141
0
0
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Personally, I don't think understanding the Afghan war is all the difficult. And once we are honest about who the players are and what we are really fighting, then understanding how to win is not that hard.

We must first understand Nato is somewhat the 800 pound Gorilla here. Too strong to ever be dislodged, very mobiles meaning it can strike anywhere, but way way way too small to be everywhere at once in a way way way too big country.

Then there is corruption, the 1200 pound gorilla in Afghanistan, it rides on drug money and arms smuggling, and thrives in conditions of anarchy. And corruption has been the constant companion of the Nato occupation for 100% of the occupation. But corruption is such a nice doggie, as long as Nato leaves corruption alone, unlike other rascals, corruption does not shoot at Nato or set up bombs. As a result, In Afghanistan, everything is corrupt, the government is corrupt, the army are corrupt, the police are corrupt, the Provencal governors are corrupt, the courts don't function, and the Afghan people experience it on a daily basis.

Then the other 800 pound gorilla is the Taliban, the de evil bad guys that wear the black hats according to Nato. But still, a jonney come lately group in Afghan politics, whose rise can be traced to the civil war after the Russians left. And the only group now in Afghanistan with a proven record of combating corruption. And their Newt Gingrich 1994 contract with Afghanistan was live under our brutal rule and we will stamp out corruption. And one would have scour history long and deep to find another group, as brutal, as reactionary, and as inflexible.
But whatever anti corruption virtues the Taliban had are now changed since the Taliban, whatever that is, has now changed into a group whose main focus is fighting Nato and throwing the Western devil out. And now the Taliban has become synonymous with the collective Afghan and Pakistani insurgencies. A loose mix of old line Taliban leaders, spiced with a few Al-Quida types and foreign fighters, newly added are old line mujaheddin fighters who have little use for Taliban ideology, and much of the grunt troops come from old line tribal leaders who have seen their traditional way of life and power bases crumble. And in the process, the Afghan insurgencies are not above
making deals with corrupt war lords and thugs, so that they can continue to fight Nato.

And the last cast member in the cluster fuck Greek tragedy is the 50 pound monkey that the Afghan government now is.

And the clear current winner is Afghan corruption and the Afghan people understand it. Which is why this election may be important. Gone is the optimism that elected Karzai in 2004, when people actually dared to hope that Nato would be better and make progress. But Nato is still only a one trick pony, fighting only the Taliban and not combating corruption. And because Nato can't kill its way out of the Taliban problem, it simply means the anarchy and corruption will never end in a worthless land of barely habitable uplands. Unless one of two things happen. (1) Nato gives up and leaves. (2) Nato finally wises up, gets serious about fighting corruption, and then the Taliban will lose the popular support it needs to continue to exists.

But Afghanistan still has a huge strategic advantage as a possible oil pipe line route. But as long as anarchy rules the day, such a pipe line is impossible. But I am seriously beginning to wonder if that is the real Nato purpose, to hang around and make sure no one unfriendly to US interests builds such a pipe line through Afghanistan.

I, for one, was hoping you really meant it when you originally wrote "I don't want to make too many comments." So much for that, eh?

Left your basement yet?
 

Extelleron

Diamond Member
Dec 26, 2005
3,127
0
71
Originally posted by: bbdub333
You're a day late. Polls were closed about 14 hours before you posted your message.

Originally posted by: bamacre

I have no freakin' idea on how to rebuild Afghanistan, and neither does anyone else.

Plenty of people do. And they are.

Originally posted by: Extelleron
There is no sense in wasting hundreds more lives and hundreds of billions more dollars in a useless fight against an idea. Sadly Obama doesn't understand this and neither do most politicans on either side.

And sadly, you are too ignorant to see how important this war is.

Explain to me how this war is important to me at home.... why I should pay thousands of dollars to fund a war thousands of miles away that has no positive effect, and why others should die because of this war?

Rebuilding Afghanistan is none of our business.

 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,425
8,388
126
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Kadarin
Originally posted by: Lemon law
the results will not be known for quite a few days

As opposed to Iran, where the results are magically known the moment the polls closed.

Or the US, where Bush's cousin orders the election called for Bush at Fox News before any other network, in a race decided by (officially) 534 votes.

oh please. the networks called FL (and practically the election as a whole) for gore while there were still polls open in florida, not to mention polls further west that weren't closing for hours. calling it for bush at 2 am doesn't matter a whit.


not to mention your whole post is a fallacy. we've got exit polls here so we at least have a statistical basis for knowing before the whole vote tally is in. further, vote tallies typically happen very quickly here. in iran it doesn't appear that they've got exit polling and the votes are counted by hand because there is a substantial hand written portion (if not every vote being hand written).
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,685
43,947
136
What's the scope on the main opposition candidate? Karzia is a corrupt puppet....
 

Grabo

Senior member
Apr 5, 2005
244
54
101
Originally posted by: Extelleron


Explain to me how this war is important to me at home.... why I should pay thousands of dollars to fund a war thousands of miles away that has no positive effect, and why others should die because of this war?

Rebuilding Afghanistan is none of our business.

'Operation Enduring Freedom'.

If you poke the antheap with a stick, and proceed to really mess it up, it's your moral obligation to stand still while the ants fling acid at you and attempt to eat you.

Hmm, that almost sounded sarcastic, and while in effect this might be what is happening there is a moral obligation to see through something that was started by toppling the then leadership of the country. Besides, isn't there the whole worry that if Afghanistan is left to rot then the whole region will go to hell and (besides this being a humanitarian disaster) will be prime staging ground for new attacks against the Western world?

Of course, some say that Afghanistan on the whole has never been much of a unified country, and that the only thing its peoples have in common is a pride in their own independence from any foreigners.

For the Taliban to cease the non-Taliban people in Afghanistan need to view them as we Westerners do: this can only happen after severe landwinnings in education, infrastructure, living standard etc. And this can probably only happen if a lot of effort is put into this while still a lot of military effort is made to hold the Taliban at bay + the passage of time.
So for those blessed with short range vision this equals One Gigantic Moneysink, but the U.S (and UK) started above mentioned Operation and while others should indeed help- they are responsible for leaving it in an as reasonable condition as conditions allow.

Edit. In regards to this election: I was wondering the same thing as KMFJD. If Karzai lets things as http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04...rld/asia/05afghan.html pass for law then how bad can this other person be..? Or strike that. Still- this isn't Africa at least, so maybe something positive can happen.
 

Elias824

Golden Member
Mar 13, 2007
1,100
0
76
I think its silly so many people still want to just jump out, and say its none of our business to be there. Well we kind of ummmm bombed the country and took it over, we made it our business to be there and leaving isnt much of an option. If we leave now the country will descend back into chaos and make everything we have done a waste of time. Now one is complaining about Iraq now because we are close to leaving, but man a year or so ago everyone was saying the same thing, how it was such a hopeless fight. Its not easy re-building a country and we made the decision to be there 8 years ago, so we have to stick it out. You cant just have a kid and then throw him out on the street when he spills his milk.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |