Article Tom's Hardware Core i9 9900KS Preview

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Zucker2k

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2006
1,810
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Power efficiency is incredible for 14nm.
Edit: Consumes 50 watts less than the i9 9900K @ 5GHz.



Link
 
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Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
25,748
14,781
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That's a single core that may not be doing any useful work at that speed, given what we have seen with AMD's remedy to the boosting saga in earlier releases. I'm sure @DigDog was talking about all core overclock, which the 9900KS will do.
So 4.7 ghz is not doing any "useful work" but 5 ghz is ? That is a rediculous statement, 6% less speed is not doing any "useful work". Talk about bias.
 
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Zucker2k

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2006
1,810
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So 4.7 ghz is not doing any "useful work" but 5 ghz is ? That is a rediculous statement, 6% less speed is not doing any "useful work". Talk about bias.
A lot of people on Reddit (even some members here) have reported their chips only boosting to the advertised single core boost clock while idle, or momentarily, never sustained in any significant workload; and this was after AMD released the ABBA bios.
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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A lot of people on Reddit (even some members here) have reported their chips only boosting to the advertised single core boost clock while idle, or momentarily, never sustained in any significant workload; and this was after AMD released the ABBA bios.
Any sustained workload has nothing to do with single core boost. 12 cores@4.1 for a multi-threaded workload will easily beat 8 cores@5 ghz.

Try to stay with facts and reality in your replies.
 
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Zucker2k

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2006
1,810
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Whatever the settings for a same load the 9900K use 130W@4.7 and the 9900KS 142W@5.0, i see no miracle here, just that a particularly bad 9900K sample that overclock badly is used as a mean to make a well binned sample look like a big step ahead..

From 4.7 to 5.0, wich is 6%, their 9900K require almost 50% more power, i mean, for a proper comparison of process progress lower frequency should be used, and in this respect the available numbers point to only the extremity of the frequency ceiling as being improved, at 4.0-4.7 FI difference is negligible.
The 9900k may not have been running at 4.7GHz because they apparently turned off MCE:
MSI turns this (Enhanced Turbo) on by default in its BIOS, similar to most of its competition. Performance, power consumption, and heat are all affected, naturally. We manually disable this feature for our stock CPU testing to best reflect Intel's specifications.
So that'll mean that the 9900K was running at 95 watts stock, and turbo boosting to 130 watts, briefly. A sustained load would've pushed consumption higher, and that's what the 192 watts shows when the chip is pushed to a fixed 5GHz. These figures are all ballpark for the 9900k.
 

Zucker2k

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2006
1,810
1,159
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Any sustained workload has nothing to do with single core boost.
What happens when you run CB15 or CB20 single core? Is that a sustained load or not? That's AMD's problem right there. Again, you go in circles only to come back to my point. Idle is idle. It doesn't count.
 

UsandThem

Elite Member
May 4, 2000
16,068
7,380
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A lot of people on Reddit (even some members here) have reported their chips only boosting to the advertised single core boost clock while idle, or momentarily, never sustained in any significant workload; and this was after AMD released the ABBA bios.
I know some people are more obsessed with what their CPU boosts to, but most people only care about how it actually performs when performing tasks. Does the performance and power usage match what reviewers reported? Then honestly who cares about 25 - 50 Mhz?

That whole thing was little more than a tech version of the OT 'First World Problem' thread. That was one of the most overblown "issues" I had seen in a long time.
What happens when you run CB15 or CB20 single core? Is that a sustained load or not? That's AMD's problem right there. Again, you go in circles only to come back to my point. Idle is idle. It doesn't count.
You really felt the need to continue with that?
I see what you are doing.
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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What happens when you run CB15 or CB20 single core? Is that a sustained load or not? That's AMD's problem right there. Again, you go in circles only to come back to my point. Idle is idle. It doesn't count.
Cinebench in single core more is only a number. Multithreaded number is more meaningful. And single core is an indicator of IPC, and Ryzen 3000 series seems to do well. We don't even have a number for 9900ks, so why are you even bringing this up ?
 
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Zucker2k

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2006
1,810
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Cinebench in single core more is only a number. Multithreaded number is more meaningful. And single core is an indicator of IPC, and Ryzen 3000 series seems to do well. We don't even have a number for 9900ks, so why are you even bringing this up ?
So you're now arguing against the relevance of single core boost? There are many apps that use single core, sustained, games notably, Adobe software, etc. Why did AMD even bother boosting single core clocks that high in the first place? For show?
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,106
136
Again, all this stupid testing is using a synthetic AVX work load that no one will ever experience because there are almost no consumer apps that use AVX. TH's (and other sites) use of these benchmarks is absurd. Let the silliness proceed...
 

Zucker2k

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2006
1,810
1,159
136
I know some people are more obsessed with what their CPU boosts to, but most people only care about how it actually performs when performing tasks. Does the performance and power usage match what reviewers reported? Then honestly who cares about 25 - 50 Mhz?
Well, chip "performance" was what was always touted when the clocks fanatics ran amok in threads on this forum not too long ago but now that AMD has seemingly solved that issue, it seems we're back to debating the importance of clocks. My skepticism is not even directed at AMD, but TSMC's 7nm process.
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
25,748
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So you're now arguing against the relevance of single core boost? There are many apps that use single core, sustained, games notably, Adobe software, etc. Why did AMD even bother boosting single core clocks that high in the first place? For show?
YOU brought up single core boost. Anything you can try to use to show this CPU in a good light, you do. I am really sick of this
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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Well, chip "performance" was what was always touted when the clocks fanatics ran amok in threads on this forum not too long ago but now that AMD has seemingly solved that issue, it seems we're back to debating the importance of clocks. My skepticism is not even directed at AMD, but TSMC's 7nm process.
And Rome, which uses this 7nm process has broken like every world record and you say you are skeptical of the process ?

You really need to get back to reality.
 
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Zucker2k

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2006
1,810
1,159
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YOU brought up single core boost. Anything you can try to use to show this CPU in a good light, you do. I am really sick of this
The 9900KS doesn't even have single core boost, from what I understand. It'll run all cores at 5GHz all the time so how did I use single core boost to show this chip in a good light? My reply to @DigDog was that I doubt AMD could hit 5GHz on a single core (AMD does implement single core boosting in zen 2, right?) let alone 8 cores. And my answer is based on the reality of zen 2 chips struggling to run sustained loads on a single core at advertised speeds.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Temps and power consumption can swing wildly when pushing closer to the limits.

With my 8086k capped at 4Ghz all core, I can run prime and cinebench at ~38C max all day long with a slight undervolt. My old 2700X @ 3.6 would run only 41C max, and in games/etc I could keep it in the low 30s.

Push either one up in clocks, and things get much hotter in a hurry. Hell, at 4.8Ghz vs 5.2Ghz for my 8086k, I see things go from 55-58C to mid 70s under the Noctua. At 4.3Ghz my 2700X damn near hit 90.
 

UsandThem

Elite Member
May 4, 2000
16,068
7,380
146
Well, chip "performance" was what was always touted when the clocks fanatics ran amok in threads on this forum not too long ago but now that AMD has seemingly solved that issue, it seems we're back to debating the importance of clocks. My skepticism is not even directed at AMD, but TSMC's 7nm process.
I am not one of those people.

You will not see me in any AMD vs. Intel debate focusing on clocks, or joining any particular camp. I look at overall performance, power usage, and $/performance. And the last time I looked, both camps have some great performing CPUs from the top to the bottom.

Depending on a person's main usage, both camps have their strengths and "weaknesses", although there's really just not much difference anymore.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,106
136
And my answer is based on the reality of zen 2 chips struggling to run sustained loads on a single core at advertised speeds.
Absolute clock speed alone is irrelevant, as is IPC, taken on its own. Performance is all that matters. And even with performance, it’s only a matter of what that means to a given application, like game frame rates or compile times or how quickly Excel computes a graph based on a huge spreadsheet. That’s the bottom line. That's all that matters. That is why we use computers.

The core wars, GHz wars, IPC wars, etc. are old news - really old news. It’s time to get over all that crap.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,805
11,161
136
Obviously they are not using AVX2 at all since the 9900K use 130W, exactly what it drain in Cinebench R15, with AVX2 and Prime 95 it goes up to 185W despite a frequency offset.

It is possible to force y-cruncher to use a binary designed for an older CPU generation to get it to use different SIMD ISAs. If you let it choose by default using the main executable, it will pick AVX2 for a 9900K (or KS) by way of the Kurumi binary. To force AVX, you could run Hina instead. One of the things that needs to be examined is: how well did the chip perform in y-cruncher at the conclusion of the bench? For example, a 9900k running Kurumi produces a result of ~44s calculating pi to 1 billion places:


Sadly, the Tom's review didn't provide a result, so we have no idea how quickly (or slowly) the 9900KS ran during this benchmark.

why can't AMD make a 9900KS?

TSMC 7HP won't clock that high. They don't really need to anyway. Zen2 is already hella fast, and Zen3 shows up soon with IPC improvements and possible clockspeed improvements.

Again, all this stupid testing is using a synthetic AVX work load that no one will ever experience because there are almost no consumer apps that use AVX. TH's (and other sites) use of these benchmarks is absurd. Let the silliness proceed...

Some people do use AVX and AVX2, such as anyone running video encoding or 3D rendering software.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,622
2,189
126
TSMC 7HP won't clock that high. They don't really need to anyway. Zen2 is already hella fast, and Zen3 shows up soon with IPC improvements and possible clockspeed improvements.
ok, this is a bit puzzling to me because i associate die shrink with increased clockspeed. But i am convinced that if AMD wanted, purely for marketing reasons, they could make a CPU that can clock 5Ghz, regardless of what die size they need to make it at; do you need 14nm, 10nm, 7nm, whatever, as long as you put it out, and it doesn't really matter if it's IRL less useful than a higher core count CPU with a better IPC because it's a marketing war, not a performance war. You could literally target a specific application, i.e make a CPU designed to run GTAV, and sell it, then make another targeted at Photoshop, and so forth.

Because, from one point of view, the only people who realistically profit from higher computing power today are not gamers who need 160fps, but people who have a professional workload, and they without a doubt need a higher core count over a higher clockspeed.
Gamers, who pick a higher clockspeed CPU for increased framerates, are buying into an old and frankly debunked ideology, that it will future proof the PC, while instead buying cheap and then upgrading later on is better.
If one CPU pushed GTA to 147 fps and another to 138, they are essentially the same as they both overachieve; the only reason why you'd want the 147 one is because you think "when both these cpus are old, the 147 one will have more power" but by that time you could be upgrading with another midrange CPU, helped by the money you have saved.

So why do people care about hitting 5Ghz? because people are people, they are instinctive, easily fooled, emotive, and will pick 5 over 4.9 because 5 is a cool round number, an imaginary target. I bet you that you could have two architectures where a 4.9 slightly outperforms 5 and people would still gravitate towards the 5.
Let me remind you to google "third pound burger" - people thought that a 1/3 of a pound was less than 1/4 of a pound because 4 is bigger than 3 :/ (<- my face)

It's also annoying on the AMD lineup how the base clockspeeds are counterintuitive, some models that boost higher have a lower base, which would leave many a shopper in wtfland trying to figure out which one is the better CPU, while Intel screams victory with their nuclear-reactor-melting 9900K because their marketing department understands how to sell CPUs.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,449
10,119
126
Well, @DigDog , AMD tried that already, with a 5Ghz retail FX CPU. It didn't go so well. People weren't as ga-ga over "5Ghz! Yay!" as you seem to think, as it basically lacked the performance to back it up, being FX Vishera cores (modules). That's why I'm glad AMD is trying a different tact this time.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a line of "5Ghz" Ryzen 3000 CPUs, but that's largely down to TSMC. Maybe Ryzen 4000-series, will hit 5Ghz?

Edit: Also, AMD is arguably winning the "Core Wars" with efficient, multi-core, SMT-enabled, CPUs. Why would they "open a front" on the "Ghz Wars" battlefield, if they don't have the supply-lines to back it up?
 
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TheGiant

Senior member
Jun 12, 2017
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I don't get this bucket of hate..

If that what toms measured is true, we have a great CPU around in high performance area

...so how did Intel achieve it?
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,805
11,161
136
ok, this is a bit puzzling to me because i associate die shrink with increased clockspeed.

Those days are mostly over. Intel already hit clockspeed regressions at 22nm and 14nm, and they'll hit them again with 10nm. Intel only hit 5 GHz on 14nm through constant iteration on the process (14nm+, 14nm++, 14nm+++++++++ etc). AMD hit clockspeed regressions with 28nm and 14nm. They're lucky that 7nm gave them about the same clocks as 12nm, if not slightly better. In any case, AMD hasn't had a 5 GHz-capable node since 32nm SOI.

I don't get this bucket of hate..

Not so much hate, as indifference. We already have some 5.2 GHz 9900Ks floating around. More of them, at a higher price, changes very little.

If that what toms measured is true

That is also in doubt.

...so how did Intel achieve it?

Binning, if true.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,167
3,862
136
The 9900k may not have been running at 4.7GHz because they apparently turned off MCE:
So that'll mean that the 9900K was running at 95 watts stock, and turbo boosting to 130 watts, briefly. A sustained load would've pushed consumption higher, and that's what the 192 watts shows when the chip is pushed to a fixed 5GHz. These figures are all ballpark for the 9900k.


When set at 95W LT the 9900K will go up to 119W briefly and wont reach 130W while they are talking of sustained load, wich mean 130W permanently.

So much for your 95W pulled out of nowhere, the scores say it all, in NAMD it is running at 4.63GHz or so while the water cooled 9900KS is at 4.94, air cooled it is at 4.87...



 
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