Top Gear USA Tonight!

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Kaervak

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2001
8,460
2
81
Where did you hear that? I'm pretty sure they will at least show the remainder of the taped episodes to see if it will pick up steam. The show is far from great...but I'd love to give it some time to incubate and see if it improves enough to be worth the time.


Haven't heard anything about TG:US, but TG:AU is done for. Nine did everything they could to run it into the ground. Rather unfortunate, but TV networks as of late have been looking for instant mega hits and don't give anything the proper time to develop.


For TG:US, the second episode was a MASSIVE improvement over the first. There's still things that need to be worked out, but the show will get better with time.
 

allthatisman

Senior member
Dec 21, 2008
542
0
0
I Posted this on TCL:

I just watched both episodes last night. The pilot was horrible in every aspect. The second episode obviously was more polished and had a better flow to it, but its no where close to the UK version.

Rutledge(SP?) is good, probably the only person there worth keeping. Like it was said earlier, he needs to up the charisma and take on the "Clarkson" role. There will never be another person that has the ability to pull the absolute most appropriate metaphor out of thin air like Jeremy Clarkson. That, in and of itself is why I think a lot of people are simply not going to like this show, and it is for that very reason that the American version needs to be just that, American.

Top Gear America needs to be more about American automotive enthusiasm, done with the composure and polish that the UK version has. Right now, TGA is a really awful carbon copy of the UK version without ANY sort of polish or style. It reminded me of a car show that is produced by the same people as House Hunters or Mythbusters.

BTW, having a pro driver with two obvious amateurs makes no sense from a comedic point of view. The UK show is funny because all three hosts are completely and utterly fallible. What's Tanner going to do every week? Get bent out of shape because he drove a slower car slower than two amateurs in faster cars?? TGA could even ditch the third person and make it more of a buddy show by adding someone like Adam Carolla with Rutledge(as they should have done in the first place). Either way, they need to be different, and start with the easy stuff by getting their own flippin theme song...

Adam Fererra has no place on this show, at all.
 

iversonyin

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2004
3,303
0
76
I Posted this on TCL:

I just watched both episodes last night. The pilot was horrible in every aspect. The second episode obviously was more polished and had a better flow to it, but its no where close to the UK version.

Rutledge(SP?) is good, probably the only person there worth keeping. Like it was said earlier, he needs to up the charisma and take on the "Clarkson" role. There will never be another person that has the ability to pull the absolute most appropriate metaphor out of thin air like Jeremy Clarkson. That, in and of itself is why I think a lot of people are simply not going to like this show, and it is for that very reason that the American version needs to be just that, American.

Top Gear America needs to be more about American automotive enthusiasm, done with the composure and polish that the UK version has. Right now, TGA is a really awful carbon copy of the UK version without ANY sort of polish or style. It reminded me of a car show that is produced by the same people as House Hunters or Mythbusters.

BTW, having a pro driver with two obvious amateurs makes no sense from a comedic point of view. The UK show is funny because all three hosts are completely and utterly fallible. What's Tanner going to do every week? Get bent out of shape because he drove a slower car slower than two amateurs in faster cars?? TGA could even ditch the third person and make it more of a buddy show by adding someone like Adam Carolla with Rutledge(as they should have done in the first place). Either way, they need to be different, and start with the easy stuff by getting their own flippin theme song...

Adam Fererra has no place on this show, at all.

I like Tanner, he speaks from the voice of reason and he's a real driver. The other two idiots I'm less impressed about.
 

Aharami

Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
21,205
165
106
i liked the 2nd episode a lot! I found myself laughing during few of the parts.
Is that a British thing? Lying?
that cracked me up! payback for Clarkson always ragging on the vette.

After the first episode, I liked Faust the best, followed by Ferrera, and Wood a distant last. But after this ep, I like Wood the best.
 
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Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
i liked the 2nd episode a lot! I found myself laughing during few of the parts.
that cracked me up! payback for Clarkson always ragging on the vette.

After the first episode, I liked Faust the best, followed by Ferrera, and Wood a distant last. But after this ep, I like Wood the best.

That reminded me of the probable worst moment in TG:UK history (luckily, there are relatively few) :

When they dynoed the classic Mustang and a recent GT500, and complained that there wasn't 500hp to the wheels I'm fairly certain that they knew about drivetrain losses, and that crank hp =! wheel hp. It might have sounded tongue-in-cheek during the episode planning process, but it came across as complete bullshit in the episode, and less-car-savvy folks were probably left with a false impression, when in fact if you dyno pretty much anything, you're not going to see the advertised hp at the wheels (grossly underrated vehicles notwithstanding).

EDIT : Oh yeah, the other one that was blatantly stupid was the drag race between the SRT8 300 and the M5. Because comparing a $40k Chrysler with a $90k BMW makes so much sense.
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
That reminded me of the probable worst moment in TG:UK history (luckily, there are relatively few) :

When they dynoed the classic Mustang and a recent GT500, and complained that there wasn't 500hp to the wheels I'm fairly certain that they knew about drivetrain losses, and that crank hp =! wheel hp. It might have sounded tongue-in-cheek during the episode planning process, but it came across as complete bullshit in the episode, and less-car-savvy folks were probably left with a false impression, when in fact if you dyno pretty much anything, you're not going to see the advertised hp at the wheels (grossly underrated vehicles notwithstanding).

EDIT : Oh yeah, the other one that was blatantly stupid was the drag race between the SRT8 300 and the M5. Because comparing a $40k Chrysler with a $90k BMW makes so much sense.


1 - Dyno outputs are calculated to compensate for drivetrain losses.
2 - Directly comparable cars clearly in the same space. Price be damned, everyone knows Chrysler cars are cheap. Doesn't mean it should get a pass.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
1 - Dyno outputs are calculated to compensate for drivetrain losses.
2 - Directly comparable cars clearly in the same space. Price be damned, everyone knows Chrysler cars are cheap. Doesn't mean it should get a pass.

1. Only if you do the calculations.
2. No, they aren't, one is a boxy-styled, 'cheap' cruiser with a big V8, the other is a 4-door sportscar with a trick motor. They don't really pretend to be the same thing.
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,582
162
106
After the first episode, I liked Faust the best, followed by Ferrera, and Wood a distant last. But after this ep, I like Wood the best.

I had the exact same reaction. The first episode I thought Wood was HORRIBLE and Faust wasn't too bad. Second episode made me feel like Wood has some real potential and I still felt Faust was decent enough. Ferrera just needs to go. Get rid of him and get Adam Corolla back.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
1 - Dyno outputs are calculated to compensate for drivetrain losses.
2 - Directly comparable cars clearly in the same space. Price be damned, everyone knows Chrysler cars are cheap. Doesn't mean it should get a pass.

No, dynos will give you the power to the wheels unless you have one running a program to do the calculations for you.

TG got 447hp, which is spot-on for GT500 RWHP. Which means it should be right around 500hp crank hp, which is 100% correct. TG was being deliberately obtuse with that segment, I'm of the belief that they intended it to be humorous/tongue-in-cheek, but it was a rare failure, particularly when they never corrected the misinformation. If I go out and dyno a LP640 and get only 560-odd hp to the wheels, is it okay for me to say "hmm, that's weird, that's 80 less than advertised", knowing full well how things actually work?

No way in hell are the M5 and 300C SRT comparable or in the same space. The closest thing to an M5 made by a US maker is the CTS-V, and we know how that turns out, even if I still prefer the M5 in the end. Just because something is a full-size RWD sedan doesn't make it a competitor. Does the 528i compete with the Maserati Quattroporte S? That's about as outlandish as the other comparison. Now if Chrysler was marketing the thing as a M5 beater and charging $80k for it, it would make for a perfect shootout. That's incredibly clearly not the case.

I looooooove TG:UK, but they do some odd things like that every once in a while that just don't make any sense.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/03/05/hp-101-top-gear-provides-false-info-on-gt500-horsepower-rating/3

"Someone help us understand what's going on here. In the latest episode of Top Gear, Richard Hammon revisits the Ford Shelby GT500 that the British motoring show tested late last year. For comparison's sake, Hammond brings along his own classic Shelby GT390. We're used to Top Gear bashing our U.S. ware at every opportunity, and the GT500 again takes a licking for having a suspension that can't handle the car's power. But when Hammond wheels out a portable chassis dyno to accurately measure the GT500's horsepower, he seems surprised to learn that the car produces 447 horsepower. Of course, that's 447 wheel horsepower, meaning the horsepower is being measured at the wheel where parasitic drivetrain losses are in effect and reduce the manufacturer's flywheel horsepower rating a good 10 to 20%. In fact, if you factor in a 10% drivetrain loss on Ford's flywheel horsepower rating of 500, you get 450 wheel horsepower, which is pretty darn close to the 447 achieved by Hammond's "rolling road". For some inexplicable reason, however, Hammond and his comparitavely giant co-host, Jeremy Clarkson, ding the GT500 for producing 53 less horsepower than advertised. Huh?

You can view the segment after the jump for the time being (until it gets yanked off YouTube) and make your own judgment, but from our perspective the segment appears highly misleading to viewers who don't know the difference between horsepower ratings at the wheel and the flywheel. What's up, Hamster?"
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
1. Only if you do the calculations.
2. No, they aren't, one is a boxy-styled, 'cheap' cruiser with a big V8, the other is a 4-door sportscar with a trick motor. They don't really pretend to be the same thing.

1 - Calcs are done by default on all but the most arcane dynos. Look, I've even had one of my old cars on a Dyno:



Numbers were adjusted for powertrain losses, AFAIK, unless you have info proving otherwise in which case I capitulate. Did TG state the numbers were with or without PT losses?
2 - Yes. They. Bloody. Do. And the CTS-v didn't exist at that time, so it was the only comparable 4 door uber sedan not from Germany. Deal with it.
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
1 - Calcs are done by default on all but the most arcane dynos. Look, I've even had one of my old cars on a Dyno:



Numbers were adjusted for powertrain losses, AFAIK, unless you have info proving otherwise in which case I capitulate. Did TG state the numbers were with or without PT losses?
2 - Yes. They. Bloody. Do. And the CTS-v didn't exist at that time, so it was the only comparable 4 door uber sedan not from Germany. Deal with it.

1. Okay dude. Remember when Ford let some Cobras out the door under their claimed power? Then stopped production so they could fix it?

2. Get stuffed, this isn't even debatable. For the price of an M5, you could own a V8 300C and a nice sports car.
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
No, dynos will give you the power to the wheels unless you have one running a program to do the calculations for you.


No way in hell are the M5 and 300C SRT comparable or in the same space. The closest thing to an M5 made by a US maker is the CTS-V, and we know how that turns out, even if I still prefer the M5 in the end. Just because something is a full-size RWD sedan doesn't make it a competitor. Does the 528i compete with the Maserati Quattroporte S? That's about as outlandish as the other comparison. Now if Chrysler was marketing the thing as a M5 beater and charging $80k for it, it would make for a perfect shootout. That's incredibly clearly not the case.

I looooooove TG:UK, but they do some odd things like that every once in a while that just don't make any sense.


Dood, seriously?

300c
6.1-liter V8 425 hp and 420 pound feet.

M5
5.0 V10, 507 hp and 383 pound feet.

That is comparable, 100%.

However:

528:
230hp

Maserati Quattroporte S
424hp


So, you're right, you can't compare the 528 and the Masser, but you're wrong on the SRT-8 vs M5.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
1 - Calcs are done by default on all but the most arcane dynos. Look, I've even had one of my old cars on a Dyno:



Numbers were adjusted for powertrain losses, AFAIK, unless you have info proving otherwise in which case I capitulate. Did TG state the numbers were with or without PT losses?
2 - Yes. They. Bloody. Do. And the CTS-v didn't exist at that time, so it was the only comparable 4 door uber sedan not from Germany. Deal with it.

1. You're wrong. Absolutely, 100%, competely wrong. Don't worry, everyone, including myself, is frequently wrong about one thing or another. The way to tell in this particular case? Dozens upon dozens of stock GT500s have been run on dynos, and they all make ~445-455 RWHP, as in power to the ground. Now if they were really running that at the crank, they'd be putting down barely 400 or perhaps a shade less even at the wheels. Do you really want me to post page after page of stock GT500 dyno runs?

2. Only complete idiots would make that comparison. Who on earth would cross-shop or even consider the SRT8 and M5 to be remotely the same market. The SRT8 is a budget attempt to make a fairly powerful generic sedan, with budget being the emphasis. The M5 is a masterpiece that competes directly against AMG in the ultra-lux/sport sedan territory. For the same reason that you don't cross shop or compare a $25k V6 300C with a $40k 528i or consider them competitors, a STR8 vs. M5 is nonsensical. Cadillac is already a 'luxury' brand, so that makes perfect sense. I do admit that this point is entirely subjective however, it's just that it's so ludicrous as to be laughable. Fwiw I thing the 300 is an abomination anyway.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Final note :

Manufacturers as a rule specify crank hp in advertising and specifications. When cars have the hp number in the model name, it is invariably the crank hp used for that purpose. To call Ford liars by having a 500 crank hp / 450whp vehicle named 'GT500', are we to call Lamborghini liars for cars like the LP560/LP640/LP670, which indeed do produce that power at the crank but considerably less at the wheels?

Should the LP560 be bashed by simpletons and renamed the LP496?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQoeg0PVLY0&feature=related

^^ This clip is particularly hilarious in the context of our conversation, as it opens with clarkson waxing poetic about the 560 "horsepowers" of this vehicle. I wonder if he would have made a big deal along with Hammond had they dynoed it
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
So nobody knows if the TG Dyno result was adjusted for PT losses then?

If it were run by a competent outfit, then it was pure wheel hp. The problem with trying to calculate crank or BHP from a dyno result is that different drivetrains can have dramatically different losses. Some cars will run 11-12% losses, while others will run over 15% easily, which leads pretty quickly to gross under/overestimation depending on the math used. I've seen some dyno sheets with calculated/adjusted hp that is astronomically off. It usually happens towards the higher end of the spectrum.

Google stock GT500 dyno runs, you'll see dozens out there on various forums and auto sites, and they all float in the same mid 400 range, which lines up perfectly with 500 crank hp.
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
If it were run by a competent outfit, then it was pure wheel hp. The problem with trying to calculate crank or BHP from a dyno result is that different drivetrains can have dramatically different losses. Some cars will run 11-12% losses, while others will run over 15% easily, which leads pretty quickly to gross under/overestimation depending on the math used. I've seen some dyno sheets with calculated/adjusted hp that is astronomically off. It usually happens towards the higher end of the spectrum.

Google stock GT500 dyno runs, you'll see dozens out there on various forums and auto sites, and they all float in the same mid 400 range, which lines up perfectly with 500 crank hp.

Dynos calculate the powertrain losses on the overrun, normally.

Something else that's pretty important, different model dynos will produce vastly different results as well. You can literally take a car across town on the same day, same conditions/fuel/temp/etc, and get a result 10% off of the other run.

True, so the TG test could have been reading 10% over. :hmm:
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
I think you may be confusing dynos reading 'corrected' power ratings with actual estimates of crank/flywheel hp (the rating that the manufacturers use in advertising and specifications). Those are *very* different things. Corrected whp rating =! crank hp. As a matter of fact I've never seen a dyno sheet list estimated crank hp as the only result, usually it's just an asterick one-liner if it's there at all.

Bottom line : TG either had a broken GT500 (running on bad gas? severe heat soak? failing coils?), deliberately mislead their viewers, or just had no idea what they were doing with that dyno run.

GT500 has been tested by the largest independent group and certified 500hp. Countless people have had their factory stock GT500's dynoed and got the expected range given the differences between dynos, and these results line up with the manufacturer specifications.

I think the GT500 is an overweight, underperforming (track time/accel/handling, not by power), overpriced vehicle. But it's 500hp, end of story. TG lied, or had a broken car.

I ask you, given the dyno result of the LP560, should the LP560 be called 'the LP almost 560'? Or the 'LP496'?
 
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EightySix Four

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2004
5,122
52
91
My problem with TG:USA is that the hosts haven't developed a real dynamic between them yet, everything they say and do is forced and you can tell. The real TG is great now because over the years they have developed a relationship with one another and the show takes advantage of that.

If TG:USA lasts a few years, we'll see a similar dynamic. I don't know if it'll last though.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
32,116
10,932
136
Dynos calculate the powertrain losses on the overrun, normally.



True, so the TG test could have been reading 10% over. :hmm:

now you're just being retarded. dynos will *always* read less than crank HP. the GT500 was rated at 500, TG tested 450, which is about 10% drivetrain loss (give or take).

do you *really* think ford lied about the HP of its top car?
 
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