Torn between platforms

[SChow]

So, I'm using an XP2200+ system and I've decided it's time for an upgrade. I'm not going to be able to salvage anything and am aiming for a Quad Core system (I can actually justify Quad v Dual). However, I'm on a rather tight budget after the RAM, HDD, PSU, Video Card I'm with left ~$400CAD or ~315USD.

Up until now I was fairly decided that a Q6600 ($233) w/ semi-decent motherboard was the best deal, but with the recent AMD price cuts I can pick up a Phenom II X4 940 for ~$267CAD -- but would only be able to go with a low-end (<= $90 CAD) AM2 motherboard -- if they even support the Phenom II's that is -- not that I particularly need SLI are most of the other features that come with higher-end motherboards.

Thoughts?

 

[Duvie]

So if you need SLI you are predominating looking at the nforce chips for the iNtel mobos?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813188033
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16819115017

319 or 299 after rebate

I am not sure if newegg ships to canucks though....

Looks like the AMD/sli combo will be above 30-40 more.....


I imagine you plan on ocing a bit?

 

[snakeye]

Are you planning on overclocking? If so a low end AMD board might not be the best solution and you'd be better off with the Q6600. Actually you'd probably be better off with that choice anyways, as there's no big difference between the 2 CPUs, and if there is a difference it's definitely not in the 940's favor. Plus the Phenom is more expensive...

I'd still go AMD though, just cause I'm more of an AMD fanboy, and HAAAAATE installing the Intel heatsinks.

 

[SChow]

Sorry, no SLI. There's http://newegg.ca for us Canucks, same thing except with CAD prices, shipping, etc.

I was planning on OCing. Brother has spare HSFs for AM2 & LGA775 so no need to factor it into the cost. From what I've read the maximum realistic goal, on air at least, seems to be around 3.6 for the Q6600, but there are no guarantees on being able to reach it, betting on 3.2-3.4 seems safer (could be wrong). I've seen too much variation for the Phenom II X4 940 but 3.6 seems a given. Of course I might not be able to do anything with it on a low-end board.

All in all the Q6600 seems like the safest choice -- and it is decent, but the II X4 940 isn't all that bad either and it does beat the Q6600 in a few things (though not significantly so), I just don't want to pull an Icarus.

 

[soonerproud]

Originally posted by: SChow
Sorry, no SLI. There's http://newegg.ca for us Canucks, same thing except with CAD prices, shipping, etc.

I was planning on OCing. Brother has spare HSFs for AM2 & LGA775 so no need to factor it into the cost. From what I've read the maximum realistic goal, on air at least, seems to be around 3.6 for the Q6600, but there are no guarantees on being able to reach it, betting on 3.2-3.4 seems safer (could be wrong). I've seen too much variation for the Phenom II X4 940 but 3.6 seems a given. Of course I might not be able to do anything with it on a low-end board.

All in all the Q6600 seems like the safest choice -- and it is decent, but the II X4 940 isn't all that bad either and it does beat the Q6600 in a few things (though not significantly so), I just don't want to pull an Icarus.

The Q6600 is about 10% slower than the Phenom II 920. I would suggest you go with the PhII 920 if the price of the entire platform is cheaper because in the end you will get better overall performance for less money. Ph II is also a great overclocker, depending on the quality of the motherboard and cooler.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

The Q6600 is one of the slowest, if not the slowest, quad core Intel has

You can still get a pretty decent board with a Phenom II 920 (http://www.newegg.ca/Product/P...?Item=N82E16813186150) and still come under budget.

 

[heyheybooboo]

The combo deals at NewEgg range from $300Cn for a Phenom 920/Biostar 790gx (need mosfet cooling) to $410Cn for a Phenom 940/Asus 790gx.

There is a combo for the Q9400/Biostar P45 for $421Cn or a Q6600/Biostar P45 for $360Cn.

If I had to choose: Phenom II 920 / Asus 790gx: $362 & free shipping

 

[SChow]

The Q6600 is one of the slowest, if not the slowest, quad core Intel has

T

Stock, yes. AFAIK though the OCing potential redeems it quite a bit, when taking that into account it seems it beats the Q8XXX series, with the low Q9XXXs being not that much better. Which seems like a pretty awesome price/performance ratio.

 

[SChow]

The 920 recommendation seems solid. Any Intel people willing to recommend it? Not that I'm accusing the AMD ones of being fanboys, but if your "opponent" sides with you it's all the more convincing.

Is there something we're missing?

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: SChow
The 920 recommendation seems solid. Any Intel people willing to recommend it? Not that I'm accusing the AMD ones of being fanboys, but if your "opponent" sides with you it's all the more convincing.

Is there something we're missing?

It's a tough call on the price/performance between an OC'ed intel quad and an OC'ed PhII.

Grabbing an OEM Q6600, a reasonable P35 mobo like the DS3L, and some cheap DDR2-800 kit plus a reasonable HSF like the Tuniq or equivalent and you got a solid 3.3-3.4GHz Oc'ed rig for a pretty penny.

Grabbing a retail PhII 940 (all PhII OCing I've seen reported are based in the multi-unlocked BE), a decent 780 mobo and some cheap DDR2-800 kit and using the stock HSF and you get a solid 3.5-3.6GHz OC'ed rig for slightly more coin but also will have slightly higher performance.

You are really better off at this point trying to determine if the PhII or Kentsfield chip performs markedly better (at roughly the same clockspeed, giving the PhII the win in any coin-toss because it will likely OC better) than the other in the particular class of applications you are most interested in running and then determine which offers you the better performance/price.

I use Intel quads, and for the apps I specifically run the PhII chip has not benchmarked to show itself superior to Kentsfield yet. But my app is not typical so my decision should not sway you either direction.

 

[Dravic]

Often overlooked, the PHII route does leave you an upgrade path to AM3 PHII's down the line in the AM2+ motherboard.

 

[ther00kie16]

Phenom II no question about it. I see combos with good motherboards (good overclocking potential) for ~$350 or less on newegg.ca
There's also a 780a mb combo for $400 if you want SLI.
q6600 is slower than Phenom II and if you are going to overclock a q6600 to make up for the performance, you'd need a hefty heatsink (about $50) to do so.
Phenom II on the other hand, will overclock higher and output less heat so you can take the 920 (or 940) to >3.5ghz with just stock heatsink. I see 3.8 and 3.9 on XtremeSystems forums with stock hsf.

 

[perdomot]

I would go with a PHII/790GX combo myself. Check out this article comparing quads:
http://ixbtlabs.com/articles3/...henom-2-x4-940-p1.html
Very encouraging!

 

[theAnimal]

tigerdirect.ca has an OEM Q6700 for $250.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: Dravic
Often overlooked, the PHII route does leave you an upgrade path to AM3 PHII's down the line in the AM2+ motherboard.

My understanding is that this is the expectation for the 925 and 945 AM3 PhII's...but has AMD actually said anything official about future AM3 PhII models being socket/electrical compatible in AM2+ mobo's?

AMD has history of switching sockets midstream for a product line. Socket 940 on desktop anyone? How about Socket 1207 FX. Those customers were assured they'd get to upgrade their uber expensive FX-72 quadfathers to K10 phenom chips...guess what never happened.

If we are going to repeat the "AM3 PhII's == AM2+ compatible" mantra as fact, it would be nice to establish at some point that it is indeed fact and not just pure speculation/expectation. People's money depends on it.

 

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: Dravic
Often overlooked, the PHII route does leave you an upgrade path to AM3 PHII's down the line in the AM2+ motherboard.

My understanding is that this is the expectation for the 925 and 945 AM3 PhII's...but has AMD actually said anything official about future AM3 PhII models being socket/electrical compatible in AM2+ mobo's?

AMD has history of switching sockets midstream for a product line. Socket 940 on desktop anyone? How about Socket 1207 FX. Those customers were assured they'd get to upgrade their uber expensive FX-72 quadfathers to K10 phenom chips...guess what never happened.

If we are going to repeat the "AM3 PhII's == AM2+ compatible" mantra as fact, it would be nice to establish at some point that it is indeed fact and not just pure speculation/expectation. People's money depends on it.

Socket 940 was always a Workstation socket. They Just sold a few FX's on it as a Gaming CPU but they could have always stuck in similar priced Opterons (some times cheaper) always till the 1207/AM2 change. As for the 1207 FX's those boards have been and will be pin compatible with again Similarly priced 1207 pin Opterons. I think your basing the upgrade ability on name and not actual options.

 

[Duvie]

I think you are holding yourself short on the G0 stepping Q6600's.......Look at MarkFW900's Q6600's (plus the one he sold me).....They all did a minimum of 3.4ghz on less then 10% vcore boost with air cooling alone.....I bet you get more....Heck my C stepping Qx6700 does 3.466ghz on air right now with 10% vcore boost....


My only compaint is why are we only looking at the Kentsfields? the lower L2 cache Yorkies actually do better clock to clock to PhII as oppposed to the Kentsfields.....As 45nm parts may be able to get a bit better OC out of them (perhaps 3.5-3.6ghz)...still with air....Almost makes them a wash when you figure in the coin saved....


Neither one has much of an upgrade path....be it PhIII or i7 core....so we can stop mentioning that...

 

[LoneNinja]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: Dravic
Often overlooked, the PHII route does leave you an upgrade path to AM3 PHII's down the line in the AM2+ motherboard.

My understanding is that this is the expectation for the 925 and 945 AM3 PhII's...but has AMD actually said anything official about future AM3 PhII models being socket/electrical compatible in AM2+ mobo's?

AMD has history of switching sockets midstream for a product line. Socket 940 on desktop anyone? How about Socket 1207 FX. Those customers were assured they'd get to upgrade their uber expensive FX-72 quadfathers to K10 phenom chips...guess what never happened.

If we are going to repeat the "AM3 PhII's == AM2+ compatible" mantra as fact, it would be nice to establish at some point that it is indeed fact and not just pure speculation/expectation. People's money depends on it.

I consider the numerous articles I've seen online claiming AM3 is backward compatible, along with AMD's roadmap, and numerous motherboard manufacturers listing AM3 support in their AM2+ boards good enough for me. Sure it might change, AMD might screw us over, but even if AMD officially stated AM3 is backward compatible doesn't mean they can't go back on their word. I don't get all the hype over AM3 compatibility anyways, it just means we have access to newer K10 chips, nothing that will be a big change from the Phenom II 940. At least that's what the current desktop road maps lead us to believe, I don't for see any major release that will make current Phenom II look weak for a long time to come.

 

[ther00kie16]

Originally posted by: Duvie
I think you are holding yourself short on the G0 stepping Q6600's.......Look at MarkFW900's Q6600's (plus the one he sold me).....They all did a minimum of 3.4ghz on less then 10% vcore boost with air cooling alone.....I bet you get more....Heck my C stepping Qx6700 does 3.466ghz on air right now with 10% vcore boost....


My only compaint is why are we only looking at the Kentsfields? the lower L2 cache Yorkies actually do better clock to clock to PhII as oppposed to the Kentsfields.....As 45nm parts may be able to get a bit better OC out of them (perhaps 3.5-3.6ghz)...still with air....Almost makes them a wash when you figure in the coin saved....


Neither one has much of an upgrade path....be it PhIII or i7 core....so we can stop mentioning that...

Actually, Yorkfield and Phenom II are about the same clock for clock. And if you are talking about coin saved... a 4ghz Yorkfield would be the q9550, maybe q9400, both of which are more epensive than the Phenom IIs. Also, Phenom II outputs very little heat so huge overclocks on stock heatsink is very possible and people achieve 3.5ghz on stock voltage. Try doing those with stock hsf and voltage with a Yorkfield. Lastly, quality AMD boards are cheaper than quality Intel chipsets on average. So it's definitely cheaper to go with Phenom II.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Yeah. The OCs at stock volts on the Phenom IIs have looked pretty good but it seems they also hit the ol' AMD Volt Wall where that last .2v gets you may be 5MHz.

Whatever he chooses I vote SSE4 - we are finally starting to see some optimizations ...

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: ther00kie16

Originally posted by: Duvie
I think you are holding yourself short on the G0 stepping Q6600's.......Look at MarkFW900's Q6600's (plus the one he sold me).....They all did a minimum of 3.4ghz on less then 10% vcore boost with air cooling alone.....I bet you get more....Heck my C stepping Qx6700 does 3.466ghz on air right now with 10% vcore boost....


My only compaint is why are we only looking at the Kentsfields? the lower L2 cache Yorkies actually do better clock to clock to PhII as oppposed to the Kentsfields.....As 45nm parts may be able to get a bit better OC out of them (perhaps 3.5-3.6ghz)...still with air....Almost makes them a wash when you figure in the coin saved....


Neither one has much of an upgrade path....be it PhIII or i7 core....so we can stop mentioning that...

Actually, Yorkfield and Phenom II are about the same clock for clock. And if you are talking about coin saved... a 4ghz Yorkfield would be the q9550, maybe q9400, both of which are more epensive than the Phenom IIs. Also, Phenom II outputs very little heat so huge overclocks on stock heatsink is very possible and people achieve 3.5ghz on stock voltage. Try doing those with stock hsf and voltage with a Yorkfield. Lastly, quality AMD boards are cheaper than quality Intel chipsets on average. So it's definitely cheaper to go with Phenom II.

Good point....If he didn't get a high enough model of the Quad core the yorkie with its 333fsb and low multi is going to force him to get a much higher end board....

What are PhII getting on average? Becuz I am not hearing 4ghz....

 

[clairvoyant129]

Originally posted by: ther00kie16

Originally posted by: Duvie
I think you are holding yourself short on the G0 stepping Q6600's.......Look at MarkFW900's Q6600's (plus the one he sold me).....They all did a minimum of 3.4ghz on less then 10% vcore boost with air cooling alone.....I bet you get more....Heck my C stepping Qx6700 does 3.466ghz on air right now with 10% vcore boost....


My only compaint is why are we only looking at the Kentsfields? the lower L2 cache Yorkies actually do better clock to clock to PhII as oppposed to the Kentsfields.....As 45nm parts may be able to get a bit better OC out of them (perhaps 3.5-3.6ghz)...still with air....Almost makes them a wash when you figure in the coin saved....


Neither one has much of an upgrade path....be it PhIII or i7 core....so we can stop mentioning that...

Actually, Yorkfield and Phenom II are about the same clock for clock. And if you are talking about coin saved... a 4ghz Yorkfield would be the q9550, maybe q9400, both of which are more epensive than the Phenom IIs. Also, Phenom II outputs very little heat so huge overclocks on stock heatsink is very possible and people achieve 3.5ghz on stock voltage. Try doing those with stock hsf and voltage with a Yorkfield. Lastly, quality AMD boards are cheaper than quality Intel chipsets on average. So it's definitely cheaper to go with Phenom II.

What?

"Clock for Clock, Still Slower than Core 2 & Core i7"

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuch...howdoc.aspx?i=3492&p=4

According to Anand, Yorkfield is about 14% faster clock for clock, that's not about the "same." I guess you've been checking reviews at AMDzone.com

 

[Accord99]

Originally posted by: ther00kie16
Actually, Yorkfield and Phenom II are about the same clock for clock.

Actually, Phenom II and Kentsfield are about the same clock for clock, with a slight advantage to higher than 1066MHz FSB Kentsfields.

Also, Phenom II outputs very little heat so huge overclocks on stock heatsink is very possible and people achieve 3.5ghz on stock voltage.

The few reviews that measured the power usage of overclocked systems sugest that Phenom II has a Prescott-like behavior and power consumption skyrockets as you overclock to 3.5GHz and beyond, to higher than a similar clock Kentsfield or even i7.

http://www.hwbox.gr/showthread.php?t=3253&garpg=32

 

[yh125d]

I'd personally go for the Phenom, but mostly because the whole C2D or bust business is getting old. I want change!

 

[Duvie]

So guys what are PhII ocing to? If they exhibit prescott behavior past 3.5ghz then I dont see them getting much past 3.6ghz without tremendous heat gains...4ghz seems unlikely on air then....