Toxic Gas HOT: Respiratory Mask $80 at Fry's B&M (chemical, nuclear, biological certified)

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DestruyaUR

Senior member
Jan 23, 2002
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During this particular exercise, students go inside an actual chamber contaminated with VX.

I'd imagine the typical occurrence after that exercise like that is a trip to a bar where massive quantities of alcohol are consumed. I'd imagine in this day and age something like diethylphthlate mixed with a small amount of photoreactive dye.

Interestingly enough, just this morning on NBC 4 in Washington DC, someone mimiced my directions almost to the TEE. Except THEY suggested people go out and buy lucite and duct tape and "completely seal off at least one room of their house." Christ. If you're here, news guy, you probably just bugged out 1/4 of your audience. Read up on NBC warfare. An attack in the middle of DC wouldn't endanger people 10-15 miles away.
 

huesmann

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 1999
8,618
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What I don't understand is how they tell you to seal off the room so shiznit can't get in...how you gonna breathe? Gonna keep SCUBA gear in your sealed room? Gonna let in a little air with contaminants to breathe?

Regarding enlisted types, come on, they know they ain't getting paid diddly when they sign up. Those that aren't looking for a career are looking for some "free" training they can use in a better-paying civilian job when they get out. As far as families of grunts being on food stamps, some people just shouldn't have kids if they don't have any brains (financial sense). This doesn't only apply to military grunts, of course...it applies to plenty of civilians, too.
 

SoylentGreen

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2002
4,698
1
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You guys are the phunny.

Try being placed in a room full of CS gas with a mask, and hang out for a few minutes. Have a drill sergeant rip it off your face and make you stand there until you breathe.

Breathe in now without protection. Cough your lungs out.
 

Richardito

Golden Member
Feb 24, 2001
1,411
0
0
Originally posted by: Kiyup
You guys are the phunny.

Try being placed in a room full of CS gas with a mask, and hang out for a few minutes. Have a drill sergeant rip it off your face and make you stand there until you breathe.

Breathe in now without protection. Cough your lungs out.

For about a year I actually breathed CS gas and did various exercises which included shouting and doing calistenics (all with no mask on) a couple of times per week while in the Marines. Soon I realized that I actually enjoyed breathing it in (got used to it).
 

huesmann

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 1999
8,618
0
76
Originally posted by: Richardito
For about a year I actually breathed CS gas and did various exercises which included shouting and doing calistenics (all with no mask on) a couple of times per week while in the Marines. Soon I realized that I actually enjoyed breathing it in (got used to it).
Man, Marines are dumb!
 

John P

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,426
2
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What I don't understand is how they tell you to seal off the room so shiznit can't get in...how you gonna breathe? Gonna keep SCUBA gear in your sealed room? Gonna let in a little air with contaminants to breathe?

I was wondering the same thing. Obviously you can't make the room airtight, so how much good will sealing off a room do??

DestruyaUR what is your take on this?


 

LeaDxPainT

Senior member
Jun 6, 2001
977
0
76
Don't forget to buy duct tape to seal up your house and i heard dog food taste good..you should stock up on those too.
 

DestruyaUR

Senior member
Jan 23, 2002
869
0
0
Sealing off a room is an idiotic step and I've lost even more faith in the media for suggesting it.

The only people this would benefit in the least are people close to the epicenter of a chemical attack. A biological attack isn't obvious at first, so chances are, by the time people became symptomatic, you would have already been exposed to the weapon. With a chemical attack, if you're in the area (meaning one-to-two miles from the attack's origin), yeah, sealing MIGHT help, but so might running like hell away from where you are UPWIND.

As I said before, it would take a MASSIVE quantity of chemical agent to produce a lethal dosage for all those exposed in an open-air environment. Even the military has had trouble getting open air attacks to work properly. When you hear about things like "a single microliter of VX on your skin will kill you," it's bullsh*t. If you have 5-10 liters of VX or GB (AKA Sarin) and your target area is one city block, yeah, that might work. If you have 10 liters and your target is an entire city? Get real. Imagine if you would the weight and volume of the air encompassing a 20x20 mile (typical Metro area size) area to an altitude of 1000 feet (seeing as very few buildings in the US are higher than this, it's a good benchmark). That's 105,600ft (L) x 105,600ft (W). That is approximately 11,151,360,000 square feet, or x/5280^2 = 400 square miles. And somehow a terrorist, with a (most likely a crude tank + C4 setup) chemical device, filled with a binary mixture of a chemical agent most likely not exceeding twenty gallons/liters (due to prohibitive weight), who would most likely detonate it from a medium altitude during a morning commute or rush hour...is going to contaminate an entire metro area? Again, get real.

For a biological attack, all you have to do is limit your direct contact with others. Even a simple paper surgical mask would help. Biological agents, with the exception perhaps being anthrax or genetically-altered agents, do not do well in open-air environments and/or direct sunlight. Sufficed to say, going outside after a, let's say, a smallpox attack ISN'T going to kill you. Going to someplace where large quantities of people are gathered? Probably not smart, unless it's Anthrax, in which case people can't even transmit it to you if they cough in your face.

And about "genetically-altered" biological weapons. I honestly think the prospect of a country like Iraq or North Korea selling GA strains of smallpox or any other biological agent to terrorists is nil. Quite simply because the use of smallpox (especially a genetically-altered strain resistant to vaccination) is like dropping napalm into a forest of dry trees. It spreads like wildfire. So any nation that provides such a weapon could easily see the contagion coming back across their borders en masse in a week or two. The only thing that's kept smallpox contained the past 100 years, ending in the late 70s when it was "eradicated," is that it usually cropped up in isolated impoverished areas where the population had almost no way of infecting an outside population. One person gets on a plane headed for another country/coast/continent, and the fire spreads. Virologists and epidemiologists refer to the worldwide airline network as "the net;" once something as contagious as smallpox hits it...well, you get the idea.

Biological weapons exist for two reasons. One is to create a consequence so dire that attacking someone willing to use them will produce a Pyrrhic victory. The second (was) that in the event of a war with the Soviet Union, they would have probably used biological agents on "soft" targets (i.e. personnel) to not only demobilize but demoralize. Could you fight, wondering if you were going to die anyway from something you couldn't even see? Biological weapons were never meant as weapons to be used on populations of civilians (though powers have figured out ways and means to make them a viable weapon).

Since smallpox seems to be the virus everyone is scared sh*tless of, let's talk a little about that. Smallpox is a highly infectious virus which has a mortality rate of around 30%. So in an unvaccinated relatively unhealthy population smallpox would be expected to kill one in three infected. Your chances of survival increase exponentially with how good of shape you're in, and the condition of your immune system - those of you infected with autoimmune diseases or HIV/AIDS should take great care in the event of a biological attack to shield yourself from contracting the agent.

If you were vaccinated as a child (for you baby boomers in the crowd), your old vaccination should have a greatly reduced effiency, but that doesn't mean it's worthless. The more smallpox vaccinations you recieved prior to 1972, the better off you are...speaking statistically - no one knows how protected you are simply because there's no way to do a study on it. Me being born in 1981 doesn't help, since I've never received the vaccination. But I'd hardly call my attitude "panicked," would you?

In the event of an outbreak of smallpox in a heightened alert status, something called a "ring vaccination and quarantine" would take place. The affected area(s) would be completely sealed off and medical personnel would be sent in to care for those exposed and affected. This is the equivalent of slapping a tourniquet on a bleeding limb. As I said before, if you deny a pathogen hosts, you deny its survival.

Myth: Someone infected with smallpox is contagious before the scabs appear.
Fact: Someone infected with smallpox COULD be very minorly infectious a day or two before the scabs appear on or around Day 11 following initial exposure and infection.

Smallpox has an incubation period (which is the time it takes for the virus to build itself up and overcome the immune system) of 10-12 (though the range is anywhere from 7-17 days depending on varying circumstances) days. After that, telltale signs such as the infamous pusy rash will appear, followed by 2-3 days of very high fever, headache, and prostration (wanting to be nowhere but flat on your back). It's only on or around day 10+ that a person becomes infectious, the least amount on day 10 up until maximum infectiousness near the endstage of the infection. So to put it quite frankly - even those infected aren't contagious until they begin to show the physical signs of infection, and by then they're not going to want to be "up and at 'em" anyway.

Myth: You can catch smallpox from an infectious person, say, across the room.
Fact: It takes rather close proximity to an infectious person (about six feet) to be able to catch the virus.

Think about it...we've lived with tuberculosis for centuries. You can catch TB just about as easily as you can catch smallpox. Have you ever caught TB?

So, after that long tirade, duct-taping your house or "one room?" It's BS. Just be smart, don't panic, and exercise good use of common sense.
 

John P

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,426
2
0
DestruyaUR,

Dude, thanks for all the information. I think you have really put a lot of us more at ease with all this media hype going on. How in the world do you know all this stuff? (you may have said previously but I don't have time to scroll up right now).
 

DestruyaUR

Senior member
Jan 23, 2002
869
0
0
I get all my knowledge from books and men smarter than I. Whodathought all that "useless information" I've read and studied on conventional and unconventional weapons, delivery systems, and military tactics for about 15 years now would ever prove valuable, huh?

If you want to know more, just hit up your libraries. You'll get more truth there than you ever will from a news broadcast.
 

John P

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,426
2
0
If you want to know more, just hit up your libraries. You'll get more truth there than you ever will from a news broadcast

That's the problem with most people, all they see is what the media sensationalizes. How many times have they mentioned the number of countries "with" us instead of the number of countries "against" us as far as the UN or NATO goes for example. Oh well, thanks again for the info.

Personally I rely on the first 5 minutes of SNL each week for my political news. Did anyone else see the UN piece they did last Saturday, hilarious! Or the one's with Dick Cheney in the caves of Afghanistan Great stuff....
 

marvdmartian

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2002
5,553
19
81
Having worked in the nuclear power field (during my navy enlisted days), I can tell you that the "gas masks" (respirators) we wore, to protect us against radioactive particles entering our respiratory system, had nothing more than a high grade HEPA filter. Nowadays, you can buy vacuum cleaners and room air filtering machines with basically the same type of filter (though I'd have to wonder if they're nearly as effective).

As far as "radioactive air", that's a fallacy. It's the microscopic particles of fallout (in other words, radioactive dust) that's carried by the wind that'll get into your lungs and mess up your whole day. These particles don't have to be gamma emitters, since alpha and beta emitters are just as deadly once ingested or inhaled. The advice I saw here, about shielding and distance, and about getting upwind, are great advice, but let's not forget TIME. The less time you spend breathing dirty air, the better off you are, right??

For most types of airborne chemical, biological or nuclear contaminants, a good quality "moon suit", such as the EPA recommends for cleaning up toxic waste sites, will protect your skin for a long enough period of time to "get the hell out of Dodge", so long as they're used with a good quality respirator. Granted, some agents (like VX gas) are corrosive, and can literally melt a "moon suit", but that's in concentrated form. If you're that close to the weapon, you're probably better just to bend over and kiss it goodbye!!

I agree, too, with the idea that sealing a room in your house is an incredible waste of time. Unless you have some way to either hermetically seal the room (no, duct tape doesn't count!!), and make it so that any access point to the room is equipped with an airlock and good quality gasketed doors (try finding someone that can get you the type of metal hatch the navy uses on their ships, for damage control), all you're doing is delaying the inevitable. How can that be so, you might ask?? Have you ever wondered why you don't die from carbon monoxide poisoning every time you light off a natural gas oven, water heater, or furnace in your home?? It's because every house made has some air leakage. Windows, doors, and in older homes, even your wall socket and light switch boxes will allow some air to leak into your house. Without that leakage, carbon monoxide would quickly build up and kill the occupants.

Oh, and along with currancy, a supply of gold or gems (hey, how worthless would paper money be, in the case of armageddon??), and a good old fashioned constitutionally guaranteed firearm wouldn't be a bad idea, along with a decent quantity of ammunition. Let's face it, there's nothing quite like the sound of a slide being racked into position to scare off the majority of scumbag looters you might have to deal with, right?? LOL

Of course, this close to Valentine's day, there's always the "grab a pretty gal and make like it's the end of the world" approach!!

Marv
 

Cybordolphin

Platinum Member
Oct 25, 1999
2,813
0
0
DestruyaUR...

You were a white conservative upper-middle class up until year 2000? What are you now? And you are only 22 years old? You have been studying this topic since your were 7? You've tasted Parmalat overseas? I'm confused.

I found not a single flaw in your posts. Most 22 yr olds don't know about the things you have noted. May I ask where else you aquired your information (other than books)? Where did you grow up? What schooling have you had? What line of work are you in?

Oh.... and are you interested in a job?
 

DestruyaUR

Senior member
Jan 23, 2002
869
0
0
Originally posted by: Cybordolphin
DestruyaUR...

You were a white conservative upper-middle class up until year 2000? What are you now? And you are only 22 years old? You have been studying this topic since your were 7? You've tasted Parmalat overseas? I'm confused.

I found not a single flaw in your posts. Most 22 yr olds don't know about the things you have noted. May I ask where else you aquired your information (other than books)? Where did you grow up? What schooling have you had? What line of work are you in?

Oh.... and are you interested in a job?

Answers to the questions:

1) Yup. Considering I have a stock portfolio that I control which nets me a decent amount of yearly income (and regretfully a decent amount of taxes), up until I learned "tax cuts" were crap, I was primarily on the Republican side of the fence.

2) I prefer to call myself a Demopublican, or a Republicrat...each mean the same to me. I don't split my decisions along party lines anymore...whoever has the best idea and sells it the best gets my vote.

3) I'm 21 now, 22 in May.

4) Yeah, I got made fun of in Kindergarten and first and second grades because while other kids were reading Dr. Seuss and "Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing," I was reading books like "Modern Military Aircraft" and "Janes Military Aviation Recognition Guide." I was an odd child. Reading books like "Red Storm Rising" and "Flight of the Intruder" kinda kicked my sheerly whimsical interests into higher gear, though. Instead of memorizing statistics, and specifications, I started reading into military history in general in addition to studying both tactics and weapons platforms.

5 (and a little carried over from 4) ) Other than books, I've obtained most of my knowledge from my father and most of his friends.

My knowledge of unconventional warfare comes primarily from my father and grandfather. My grandfather was a First Lieutenant on Guadalcanal at a chemical weapons storage depot (something I STILL haven't seen overly talked about in my readings - the stockpiling of chemical warfare in the Asian theatre during WW2). Sufficed to say, I wasn't able to ask him the type of questions about chemical (and one would assume also biological) weapons before he died simply because I didn't know even 5% of what I do now when he died. The rest I've filled in on my own.

Nuclear weapons come from my father, who flunked out of nuclear weapons school...when it was under the head of Frank Kelso, who was CNO during most of his command detail in Sigonella, which is where I became aware of Parmalat. Even though he flunked out, he's shared more with me about the construct and details of nuclear weapons than the typical citizen should know.

My father's friends who DIDN'T flunk out of "nuke school" occasionally stop by for dinners, where I try to get as much information out of them as possible to fill in the gaps of what my books and the internet DON'T tell me.

But really the basis for it all were hot summers in Sig, when it was 110 degrees in the shade in the Summers and only idiots stayed outside. I must have read the entire military reference section of that library ten times in the two years we were there.

As with any overseas billet, sometimes things can go scarce in the base commissary - so a couple of times cartoned milk didn't get sent down from Germany, and we were all forced to drink Parmalat. The stuff tastes like crap when you first start drinking it, but afterwards, as I said before, you get used to it. I remember the "islanders" as we used to call them (people who were scared to leave the safety of the base) going apesh*t when the commissary ran out of olive oil. We were on the East Coast of Sicily, and the entire base was surrounded by olive and orange trees/farms...but they refused to go out on the economy. We were a little more adventurous.

6) As for work, I'm a student right now. A history major with a double minor in MIS and Political/Social Science. I should graduate in Spring of 2004. I haven't decided yet whether to apply to law school before or after trying to get a Masters in history just to get a postgraduate degree. Pretty much up in the air right now, I suppose.

You'd think I'd take to the military like a duck to water, and you'd be right, except for one thing. Right now I'm wearing glasses to correct a 20:350 distance vision deficiency. And since I'm not really in the mood to fly helos or cargo planes, but rather now bombers - the Air Force wouldn't let me NEAR the controls on a B-1B.

7) Dare I ask what field this job is in?
 

DestruyaUR

Senior member
Jan 23, 2002
869
0
0
Thine words pierceth like an envenomed dagger, bleu. Too bad I'm immune to the venom from the species Crapperius Threadicus.

He asked questions, I answered them (albeit longwindedly - but look at my posts in this thread and see if I'm any stranger to THAT). Go crap in someone else's thread.

Also: you've analyzed my threads, dolphin? Damn, didn't know I was under that much scrutiny here - though I suppose the subject matter does warrant a "could this guy be yanking our chain?" reaction. I get that a lot. But I assure you, I wouldn't post anything I didn't know to be 100% true. Unlike the media I believe in telling the whole story instead of conjecture and half truths.

I don't expect the next terrorism attacks to be grandiose 9/11-dwarfing deeds of death and destruction - I expect them to be as simple as what we had to live with in the DC area here a few months ago. Look at how the DC sniper paralyzed the entire DC Metro area. I should know - since I lived through it. The sheer unadulterated terror of people to even stand still outside was palpable. THAT'S terrorism. At least with a bomb it's immediate - but with a spectre-like fear hanging over you, it's a hundred times worse. Since I accepted fate a long time ago, I was able to gas up my car and walk through parking garages in peace while others ran into the malls or attached convenience stores for an extra semblance of security. As I said earlier, I've accepted that some things are inevitable and refuse to live in fear of anyone or anything, be it the machinations of some crackpot fundamentalist Saudi terrorist or some meaningless color-coded terror chart. Once everyone else learns to, maybe we can go on with our lives again.
 

Devistater

Diamond Member
Sep 9, 2001
3,180
0
0
Some interesting and intelligent posts. Thanks for the info. I don't think I'm gonna worry much about it beyond perhaps getting a 5 gal water thing or two.
 

vacat

Senior member
Apr 26, 2001
341
0
0
You seem wise well beyond your years DestruyaUR... Thanks for sharing it with us.
By living in the DC area and experiencing Mr. Sniper firsthand ... I totally agree with your philosphy of living.

I've learned to live each day and dance like nobody's looking!
 

azoomee

Golden Member
Jan 5, 2002
1,054
0
0
UR,
As an officer in the military (previous life), I was in charge of Chem/Bio protection for a base. You hit it right on. I'm highly impressed with your knowledge. Nice Job!!!!
 

Cybordolphin

Platinum Member
Oct 25, 1999
2,813
0
0
DistruyaUR....

Had I pegged you as an inveterate liar, I would not have offered you a job.

Rather I had interest in your education/background, even of more interest in whether you were going to waste that mind of yours.
I'll send you a PM.
 

gtd2000

Platinum Member
Oct 22, 1999
2,731
0
76
What I always found funny was that in the British Army we had to "Mask in 9" (9 seconds to get your respirator on in the event of a NBC attack) but the American troops had 16 seconds...I always wondered about that...lol
 

gtd2000

Platinum Member
Oct 22, 1999
2,731
0
76
Originally posted by: DestruyaUR
I've accepted that some things are inevitable and refuse to live in fear of anyone or anything, be it the machinations of some crackpot fundamentalist Saudi terrorist or some meaningless color-coded terror chart. Once everyone else learns to, maybe we can go on with our lives again.

The sniper case was one comprised of an ex-US military member. What were his reasons for doing this sensless crime?

As you rightly mentioned, the absolute fear and terror that this incident caused was immense - now imagine if these "foreign" terrorists actually decided to do something prolonged....not a pleasant thought.

The fact that 99.99% (recurring) of the population were not actually affected by this incident (or any terrorist incident in the USA to date) allows you to take a view that you are not at risk by using statistical logic.

If a terrorist organisation decided to undertake a real campaign of terror in the USA then I'm sure that you would revise your decision somewhat, however, ultimately you would revert to your current feelings as you became acclimatised to the perceived threat.

You just need to look at nations such as Israel or perhaps Northern Ireland to see that people cope with terrorism on a daily basis - although nobody should ever need to endure such misery.



 

Oaf357

Senior member
Sep 2, 2001
956
0
0
Originally posted by: Richardito
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
i really dont see how a mask would protect u from nuclear air, maybe it features a lead filter to protect your nose as the rest of your body glows with radiation

The only side-effect from nuclear fall out (besides direct radiation exposure) is the radioactive iodine in the air. This radioactive iodine goes directly to your thyroid, killing it. The mask will protect you from that. But besides that, any chemical or biological attacks are very effective and the mask will probably only lengthen your suffering... Of course, this depends on the agent used in the attack. Did you guys know that in a version of the military's NBC Manual it states to check for residual biological or chemical agents by taking a private a couple of hunderd meters from the camp to remove his mask? If he stays alive then everything is clear. Isn't that messed up? :disgust:

We have multiple ways of detecting all kinds of agents. Everyone with a good NBC office has a detection kit which can figure types of agents. Everyone should also have two different types of "papers" that can be placed on people's suits and objects to see if there is contamination. We also have decon kits.

The whole private suicide thing is old hat and is a last resort scenario. People mean too much to the military these days.
 
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