Toyota fixes arent working.

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Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
I too dislike the idea of drive by wire, but not because of these problems necessarily... it just feels unnecessary in general.

I would be interested to know what the real advantages are.


Drive By Wire allows much more efficiency and less parts on the car. With DBW you don’t need an Idel Air Control valve or even a Throttle position sensor (even though some do have a type like that).
Also Cruise control becomes more a software item and less hardware. Now you have one servo that can let more air in for idle control, cruise control, adjust air/fuel ratio better, etc…

The Corvette C5 (LAST Gen) came with DBW and with all its power has not had any issues like this. That and I am sure there were other cars before that.

GM and Honda do not have a kill switch (Brake and Gas same time) yet they don’t have issues like Toyota. So this is not a DBW issue but a single car company issue, Toyota.
 

Gunbuster

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,852
23
81
They may have forgotten to inflate the owners brain to sidewall while they were at the dealership.
 

Analog

Lifer
Jan 7, 2002
12,755
3
0
Why Toyota Must Replace Flawed CTS Gas Pedal With Superior Denso Pedal


By Paul Niedermeyer on February 1, 2010
Update: a portal to all of TTAC’s articles on the subject of Toyota gas pedals is here:
Toyota uses two different electronic gas pedal designs in its cars. The version built by CTS (lower) is the subject of a massive recall, and the 2.3 million units in affected Toyota cars are to be “fixed” by the insertion of a steel shim. This CTS design is also being modified for new Toyota production, currently suspended. To our knowledge, Toyotas built with the other design (by Denso, upper) are not subject to any recalls or NHTSA investigations,. We have spent the last two days tearing down both units, and familiarized ourselves with their designs, reviewed Toyota’s “shim fix”, and replicated the fix ourselves. Toyota’s planned fix will undoubtedly reduce the likelihood of sticky pedals in the short term, but after examining both units, we are convinced that the CTS unit is intrinsically a flawed design, and poses safety risks in the long term, even with the fix. The only right action for Toyota is to acknowledge the long history of problems with the CTS-type unit, and replace them all with the superior Denso or another pedal unit that lacks the intrinsic flaws of the CTS design.
Before we briefly review the key design differences, we must acknowledge that Toyota is ultimately responsible for both designs. CTS has stated that its product was built to Toyota specifications. What we don’t know (or understand) is why Toyota has two such fundamentally different units in production. Is one unit cheaper to build? Or was CTS tooled up to produce its unit because of other similar units it builds for other manufacturers? What we do know is that the CTS unit has been used in Toyota products since 2005, whereas the Denso unit has been in use since well before that time. Toyotas sold in Europe are also subject to a similar recall, and based on the description of the issues and the unit, it appears that it is the same or similar design as the CTS unit, but we do not know if it was built by CTS or another supplier.
The key component in question is the friction arm of the CTS. It is both essential and desirable to have a certain defined degree of friction in these electronic gas pedal assemblies. The amount of friction is designed to be some degree less than the return spring, so that when the pedal is released, it returns to the closed position. But the friction (hysteresis) makes it easier to maintain a steady throttle setting, and relieves strain from pushing against the spring continuously. It simulates the intrinsic friction that is present in the traditional throttle cable as it passes through the cable housing.
The two units generate the desired degree of friction in very different ways. In the Denso unit (above), the return spring (steel coil) is squeezed on both sides of its housing. It rubs against the plastic housing as it compresses, which generates the desired amount of friction. Both sides of the full length of the Denso coil are in continuous contact with the rubbed are, spreading out the contact area size. And the metal to plastic interface seems to be relatively unproblematic.
The CTS unit is a fundamentally different design. The friction is generated by two “teeth” (A) that extend from the friction arm, and ride in two grooved channels of the housing (B). The friction arm is an extension of the pedal itself, and moves as the pedal is moved. Both the friction arm, its teeth and the surface it rubs against are plastic. Notice the small area of contact (dulled gray spot on tooth). This is the fundamental source of the problem with this unit, and one that Toyota has not come clean about. The friction unit assembled, showing the teeth engaged in the two grooves, is shown below.
In Toyota V.P. Jim Lentz’ appearance on the Today show, he claimed that issues with the friction arm go back to only October of 2009. Not so. According to a letter from Toyota to the NHTSA , in 2007 Toyota changed the plastic material used in the friction arm (from PA46 to PPS) in response to problems similar to those occurring now.

Toyota has been modifying the friction-arm (CTS) type assembly since 2007. Yet to our knowledge, the Denso design has never been implicated in any sticking-pedal issue, and has presumably been in production for some ten years. Why didn’t Toyota change over years ago?
Toyota claims it now has the solution to the pedal problem. Later this week, Toyota will be sending shims that will be inserted under the friction arm of the CTS-built pedal to reduce its tendency to stick. We understand how this fix will work, and have replicated it. It does reduce the degree of friction; the exact amount will depend on the height of the spacer. Our one-eighth inch spacer made a fairly dramatic difference in subjective friction, but we could not test it installed in a car to see how different it would feel on the road.
Regardless of the thickness Toyota chooses for the shim, real and perceived friction will by necessity decrease to the detriment of pedal feel. The original designed degree of friction was obviously chosen to maximize the balance between the two forces at play; any change can only deviate from that, and away from that original ideal balance. We believe the odds are high that drivers will feel the difference, and that some or many may not like it.
Furthermore, the CTS-built unit is prone to continual wear and change in friction level over the long haul. I do not claim to be an expert, but having two small plastic surfaces rubbing against plastic does not strike me as an elegant, reliable or durable design, and one that is presumably subject to long term deterioration from natural and unnatural causes. There are a lot of twenty and thirty year-old Toyotas on the road. But it’s difficult to imagining this assembly still functioning as intended that far down the road, nevertheless even five or ten years from now. Toyota’s well-documented de-contenting is graphically on display here. Yet Toyota is apparently staying with this design, with some further modification, for ongoing new car production.
Whereas the Denso unit (above) is not exactly inspiring in solidity of its all-plastic design and build, it seems to lack the most serious flaw of the CTS unit. The smooth metal coils rubbing against the plastic housing seems less prone to deterioration and change in friction level. There are no known issues or problems associated with it.
We are calling on Toyota to replace all CTS-friction arm type gas pedal assemblies with either the Denso unit, or another proven design that lives up to Toyota’s legendary quality and the longevity expectations of its loyal owners. “Propping up” an intrinsically inferior and historically-proven inferior design with a piece of metal stamping is not going to restore Toyota’s tarnished reputation. The two units are interchangeable; Toyota should do the right thing and switch production over, and insist on replacing all the CTS-type units even after they have had their temporary fix. A Band-Aid will stop the hemorrhaging for the moment, but nothing less than a transplant will do for the long haul.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
Nebraska Senator Mike Johanns (R) says the US should look into banning Japanese car imports until all the safety issues have been worked out.

Johanns, who as USA Today notes used to be the Agriculture Secretary during the beef import ban, likened such a move to restricting tainted meat from foreign countries.

http://www.businessinsider.com/senat...imports-2010-3
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,963
16,213
126
Nebraska Senator Mike Johanns (R) says the US should look into banning Japanese car imports until all the safety issues have been worked out.

Johanns, who as USA Today notes used to be the Agriculture Secretary during the beef import ban, likened such a move to restricting tainted meat from foreign countries.

http://www.businessinsider.com/senat...imports-2010-3

so, the ones built in the USA can go ahead ? :hmm:
 

PottedMeat

Lifer
Apr 17, 2002
12,363
475
126
seems like a bad idea to depend on constant friction between plastic parts for long term use. i wonder how much more a viscous damper or something would have cost them.


so basically toyota asked denso & CTS to supply pedals meeting some specs, it's strange they didn't stipulate they work the same way.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
Oh and here is what CTS has pointed out...
http://www.ctscorp.com/publications/press_releases/nr100129.htm

"CTS stated that since the problem of sudden unintended acceleration has been reported to have existed in some Lexus vehicles and Toyota vehicles going back to 1999 when CTS did not even make this product for any customer, CTS believes that the rare slow return pedal phenomenon, which may occur in extreme environmental conditions, should absolutely not be linked with any sudden unintended acceleration incidents. CTS is also not aware of any accidents and injuries caused by the rare slow return pedal condition, to the best of its knowledge. CTS wishes to clarify that it does not, and has never made, any accelerator pedals for Lexus vehicles and that CTS also has no accelerator pedals in Toyota vehicles prior to model year 2005. "
 

rh71

No Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
52,844
1,049
126
yes you can. but you gotta hold it for like 3 seconds. wich in a emergency i don't see many doing.

wasn't the case for our X5 (and assumably all recent BMWs)... it's been tested by other owners (albeit at low speeds)... push and release, the engine cuts out... that's it.

My old truck was not drive by wire and it does feel better for accelerating (no lag, direct feel)... but I'm hearing it's not very conducive to stability systems that depend on "the wire" for readings. Of course that truck didn't have any of the goodies of today like DSC/DTC that cuts and distributes power.
 
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FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
29,618
2,263
126
drive by wire sucks, if you're in tune with the car you know there is a slight delay.


Exactly. These ninny-nannies want a CPU to drive them around town, taking all the fun out of driving.

I can drive my own car, thank you very much. Keep your meddling hands out of my tacticle response and decision making.

IM THE DECIDER! :twisted:
 
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Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
can't fix user error


Yea its all user error. No matter the facts that Toyota has a MUCH higher claim of this, admitted they have problems, and many different people and different cars seem to have this problem.

Yep toyota fanbois at its best.
 

AMDZen

Lifer
Apr 15, 2004
12,589
0
76
I'm sure Formula1 drivers complain all the time about drive by wire

Sweeping generalizations FTL

Yes because we should compare a car built only for speed with the highest engineering and weight reduction possible to a 4 door sedan used to haul people and get decent gas mileage.

Ignorant comparisson's FTL
 

geno

Lifer
Dec 26, 1999
25,074
4
0
Exactly. These ninny-nannies want a CPU to drive them around town, taking all the fun out of driving.

I can drive my own car, thank you very much. Keep your meddling hands out of my tacticle response and decision making.

IM THE DECIDER! :twisted:

Sigh..DBW servos are quick enough you probably wouldn't even notice the difference between the two. How much tactile response do you get from your cable throttle? :hmm:
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
Why? CTS makes pedals for other makers and they have not have any issues.
That and has it not been shown that even cars with the Denso has issues?

Well, the idea would be to swap the pedals and see if the problem goes away...

If you think your Toyota is having this problem with the CTS pedal assy, then you could presumably buy the Denso assy and conduct your own test and learn something...
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
IIRC, the DBW throttle in my Jeep "learned" the way I drive, and felt much better to me after a week or so.
 
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