Toyota, Honda overstating Horsepower ratings.

[JulesMaximus]

Yeah, I'm going to buy an American car because the Camry only has 190 hp vs 210...:roll: Riiiight...:roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

Originally posted by: Xanis
lol, no one buys a camry for performance.... who cares if it gets 190hp?

and... GM gets flamed for only putting 220 hp in the Malibu MAXX...

The Malibu MAXX is ugly as hell. I don't care if it puts out 280hp. It looks like ass.

 

[HybridSquirrel]

camry's dont have power but they're light same with hondas thing power to weight ratio instead of flat out horsepower. i think the malibu maxx though more than the camry also weighs more if im not mistaken

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

Originally posted by: Xanis
lol, no one buys a camry for performance.... who cares if it gets 190hp?

and... GM gets flamed for only putting 220 hp in the Malibu MAXX...

I wouldn't criticize them for that, that's plenty. I don't really care how much horsepower the manufacturer says a car has, I'll feel how powerful it is when I drive it.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

Originally posted by: Xanis
lol, no one buys a camry for performance.... who cares if it gets 190hp?

and... GM gets flamed for only putting 220 hp in the Malibu MAXX...

I wouldn't criticize them for that, that's plenty. I don't really care how much horsepower the manufacturer says a car has, I'll feel how powerful it is when I drive it.

Agreed, I worked in the car rental industry back in the early 90s and we had the Ford Taurus, Buick Century and Toyota Camry in our fullsize fleet and people always wanted the 4 banger Camry over the V6 engine American cars. In all honestly, the Camry was a bit underpowered but it was a much nicer car. And much more reliable.

 

[MikeMike]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

Originally posted by: Xanis
lol, no one buys a camry for performance.... who cares if it gets 190hp?

and... GM gets flamed for only putting 220 hp in the Malibu MAXX...

The Malibu MAXX is ugly as hell. I don't care if it puts out 280hp. It looks like ass.

i dont argue looks.

 

[rufruf44]

Last time it happened to Hyundai, they've to dole out some nice cash for the lawsuit. Maybe I can get another $100 visa card

 

[GrammatonJP]

Old news, all 2006 acura use sae net numbers.. which is why it looks like a 2006 has less hp than a 2005 models.. and these number has been publish since last october..

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: Xanis
lol, no one buys a camry for performance.... who cares if it gets 190hp?

The point is the dishonesty, not the horsepower.

QFT. If American automakers had done this you guys would be jumping all over them. Unfortunately, ATOT is filled with American hating foreign car fan-bois.

 

[MasterAndCommander]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: Xanis
lol, no one buys a camry for performance.... who cares if it gets 190hp?

The point is the dishonesty, not the horsepower.

QFT. If American automakers had done this you guys would be jumping all over them. Unfortunately, ATOT is filled with American hating foreign car fan-bois.

++ :thumbsup: Ford learned the hard way with the NA Cobra and had to retrofit them to get the advertised HP ratings. Seems now-a-days most domestics have under-rated HP ratings.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: Xanis
lol, no one buys a camry for performance.... who cares if it gets 190hp?

The point is the dishonesty, not the horsepower.

QFT. If American automakers had done this you guys would be jumping all over them. Unfortunately, ATOT is filled with American hating foreign car fan-bois.

I guess you forgot to take into account that the American automakers haven't' even tested all of their engines under the new SAE Standards. Automakers are only supposed to use the new standards when a new engine is released, but Honda and Toyota volunteered to have their whole lineup retested in advance.

I suspect people won't notice American caqrs loosing power because the new SAE numbers for their engines will be released gradually - causing less of a stink.

 

[MikeMike]

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: Xanis
lol, no one buys a camry for performance.... who cares if it gets 190hp?

The point is the dishonesty, not the horsepower.

QFT. If American automakers had done this you guys would be jumping all over them. Unfortunately, ATOT is filled with American hating foreign car fan-bois.

I guess you forgot to take into account that the American automakers haven't' even tested all of their engines under the new SAE Standards. Automakers are only supposed to use the new standards when a new engine is released, but Honda and Toyota volunteered to have their whole lineup retested in advance.

I suspect people won't notice American caqrs loosing power because the new SAE numbers for their engines will be released gradually - causing less of a stink.

they already have to be listed...iirc

 

[GeneValgene]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: Xanis
lol, no one buys a camry for performance.... who cares if it gets 190hp?

The point is the dishonesty, not the horsepower.

QFT. If American automakers had done this you guys would be jumping all over them. Unfortunately, ATOT is filled with American hating foreign car fan-bois.

dude...camry is a car designed for the american market, and built by americans, in domestic plants

people are just stating the fact that the reduction in HP ratings will do little to dent the popularity of this vehicle, with HP being a minimal factor in most people purchasing it

heck, i bought a honda accord in 2004 (built in mexico) and i have no idea what my HP is...i'm just happy with my 34-38 MPG freeway

 

[psteng19]

The Camry only has 190 hp out of a 3.3L V6?
The old VQ30 in the Maxima made 227hp out of a 3.0.

Wonder how much hp it will have under the new rating system.
Nissan wasn't mentioned as inflating their figures but they could possibly be doing so.
The 350Z with 287hp gets spanked by the Mazdaspeed6 and Legacy GT, each with slightly less hp, more weight, and AWD drivetrain.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: Xanis
lol, no one buys a camry for performance.... who cares if it gets 190hp?

The point is the dishonesty, not the horsepower.

It's not dishonesty though. The previous numbers complied perfectly with the specified testing requirements. They were certified by the SAE, an independant body. Just because the SAE changed the procedure doesn't mean that the auto makers were lying before.

Remember in the early 1970's when the horsepower rating system changed from SAE gross to SAE net? Was Chevy lying when it rated the tri-power 427 at 435 hp when it's SAE net rating is "only" about 375? No, and Honda and Toyota weren't lying last year.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: Xanis
lol, no one buys a camry for performance.... who cares if it gets 190hp?

The point is the dishonesty, not the horsepower.

QFT. If American automakers had done this you guys would be jumping all over them. Unfortunately, ATOT is filled with American hating foreign car fan-bois.

American companies did do it. Remember the huge HP drop-off when everything switched from SAE gross to SAE net in the early 1970's?

ZV

 

[theeedude]

Actually the 95 Maxima had 190hp, and that engine was still a lot better than Honda and Toyota competition even up to 2002. The VQ just has a ton of low end torque that just keeps on giving through the rev band.

 

[J Heartless Slick]

They are using a different method for calculating horse power values so the numbers change.

What is the big deal?

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: J Heartless Slick
They are using a different method for calculating horse power values so the numbers change.

What is the big deal?

I'm not saying it is a big deal, each person has their own point of view on that, but I don't think you are correct that they have changed the method of calculation, just made the details more specific.

The article isn't very precise, but i get the impression that they essentially discovered that some manufacturers were not testing in real world conditions, for example perhaps testing with the alternator not connected, or the alternator connected but with no load on it, or using special lubricants to reduce friction,

If the spirit of the original specifications were followed, rather than the letter, I would guess the discrepancy wouldn't exist.

 

[spike spiegal]

Are you telling me my 1987 honda civic with performance exhaust might not be able to win a race with a mustang?

No, but it has more resale value than a two year old Mustang

Not sure if this means much, but I've owned a lot of Japanese imports, and at least in terms of the sportier models they seem to trend towards different gear ratios than typical domestic cars. The Japanese tend to set much more narrow gear ratios and have higher RPM limits, which gives them a different torque band than the small/mid size domestic sports cars I've driven. Depends on how you drive to take advantage of it.

As for "lying", consider the American Auto industry has been trying to convince everybody that; "you need to drive a big fat sedan or SUV to Be American and the Japanese don't really build more reliable cars". I'll take the fudging of near meaningless horse power stastics anyday. Last time I checked gas was over $2.50 a gallon and most freeways are clogged at rush hour, so who cares how fast I can pass a car in the desert while towing a boat.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: spike spiegal

Are you telling me my 1987 honda civic with performance exhaust might not be able to win a race with a mustang?

No, but it has more resale value than a two year old Mustang

Not sure if this means much, but I've owned a lot of Japanese imports, and at least in terms of the sportier models they seem to trend towards different gear ratios than typical domestic cars. The Japanese tend to set much more narrow gear ratios and have higher RPM limits, which gives them a different torque band than the small/mid size domestic sports cars I've driven. Depends on how you drive to take advantage of it.

As for "lying", consider the American Auto industry has been trying to convince everybody that; "you need to drive a big fat sedan or SUV to Be American and the Japanese don't really build more reliable cars". I'll take the fudging of near meaningless horse power stastics anyday. Last time I checked gas was over $2.50 a gallon and most freeways are clogged at rush hour, so who cares how fast I can pass a car in the desert while towing a boat.

The last "American Auto Industry" commercial I remember seeing was yesterday for the Chevy Cobalt, promoting that it gets 34 mpg.

The last commercial for a Japanese make I remember seeing was for the Toyota Tundra, emphazing how big and huge it is.

I think I saw both of these during yesterday's NASCAR race, which btw took place in the "redneck" country of Las Vegas, and was one by a "redneck" Californian who happens to be very articulate.

 

[thomsbrain]

Originally posted by: NFS4
Troll bait? You posted this same exact sh!t 6 months ago Same source too.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...hreadid=1665874&enterthread=y&arctab=y

my thoughts exactly! i remember that post, too.

and this doesn't have anything to do with dishonesty. it has to do with a new industry standard for HP measurement, replacing the old standard and the standards that came before it, and that will result in different figures. were automakers lying when they posted the old EPA figures? no. they were just posting the results of a specific test, and everyone else was using the same test, and whether or not it reflected the real world was beside the point. just the same as today. just the same as the HP issue. so give it a rest already. and it's not like the japanese tried to cover it up. Honda (for example) has not been any more shy about advertising their new HP figures than the figures from the old tests. And the performance figures are the same. And as Zemmervolt mentioned, Detroit did the exact same thing.

 

[thirdeye]

Originally posted by: J Heartless Slick
They are using a different method for calculating horse power values so the numbers change.

What is the big deal?

I know the Acura TL was restated at 258 compared to 270 due to new SAE measurements. I'd put money on the fact that IF GM isn't up to the new (apparently more conservative) SAE standards, they will do the same thing. It's not like these cars are being over-rated like Mazda seems to like to do.

 

[ballmode]

this came from Detroit... hmm...

at least they admit to their mistakes the Toyota/Honda whatever.

No matter 10hp give or take I'm still gonna buy one over the Ford/GM/Dodge just for overall fit and finish, resale, reliability, etc.

Not that I shun the american stuff in general, just they haven't caught up to my high standards I look for in a car. Once they do, I'll be in the market

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain

Originally posted by: NFS4
Troll bait? You posted this same exact sh!t 6 months ago Same source too.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...hreadid=1665874&enterthread=y&arctab=y

my thoughts exactly! i remember that post, too.

and this doesn't have anything to do with dishonesty. it has to do with a new industry standard for HP measurement, replacing the old standard and the standards that came before it, and that will result in different figures. were automakers lying when they posted the old EPA figures? no. they were just posting the results of a specific test, and everyone else was using the same test, and whether or not it reflected the real world was beside the point. just the same as today. just the same as the HP issue. so give it a rest already. and it's not like the japanese tried to cover it up. Honda (for example) has not been any more shy about advertising their new HP figures than the figures from the old tests. And the performance figures are the same. And as Zemmervolt mentioned, Detroit did the exact same thing.

The reference Zemmervolt made to the switch from gross to net ratings is not the same thing. That was an actual change in what was being measured.

As far as I can tell, this recent change is not a change in what is being measured, it is closing some loopholes, that apparently were only used by some manufacturers, which is why some brands have not had to revise their hp numbers.

btw, I introduced the word dishonesty into the thread, I think, but not to say that there necessarily is dishonesty in this, but to point out to someone that that is the reason why it's a story, not because the hp difference makes a functional difference.

However, there is a marketing advantage to having 200 hp or greater, versus having just under 200 hp, whch leads me to think that Toyota might have stretched the old rules to get over 200.