Just look at the example below your post - clearly you can have three genders.
To me, this means there is no "real" thing we can call gender, the only thing that's real are gender roles.
However, gender itself is experienced as real.
Just look at the example below your post - clearly you can have three genders.well are we talking about gender roles or gender?
I understand - it's like arguing about the existence of any other magical thing - like beauty or God.urgh. nope. im staying out of this one. i said my piece.
This is not a very scientific approach, you're essentially saying since we don't yet have a full understanding of gender (as used in this context), it isn't real.Just look at the example below your post - clearly you can have three genders.
To me, this means there is no "real" thing we can call gender, the only thing that's real are gender roles.
However, gender itself is experienced as real.
No. Beauty is subjective, and deities are not something that can be studied scientifically.I understand - it's like arguing about the existence of any other magical thing - like beauty or God.
There will never be a science that can find physical evidence of Gender - the argument in favor of gender always boils down to soul/spirit/mind that is "of" a gender.No. Beauty is subjective, and deities are not something that can be studied scientifically.
I'm ready to change my views, I prefer to find that I am wrong. But why not speak to my faulty premise?I disagree with your assessment, and it would appear you and I have nothing to discuss. You already know everything there is to be known on on the subject (or so you've decided) whereas I do not.
Society has performed bodily modifications for longer than history has been recorded, as far as I'm aware. It does not mean there is anything inherently wrong with society, it simply speaks to the current mores of that society.I'm ready to change my views, I prefer to find that I am wrong. But why not speak to my faulty premise?
Try removing personal feelings from your assessment. Imagine why you might say "hmm... something is wrong with society" when you read these:
http://www.cracked.com/article_23006_ball-ironing-7-terrifying-unnecessary-plastic-surgeries.html
well, not quite what I meant, but sort of. I mean that this issue is contentious, and my opinion is pretty cut & dry. There's no need for me to engage in semantics to try to encourage anyone to believe what I believe, because my opinion as stated basically precludes me from doing that.I understand - it's like arguing about the existence of any other magical thing - like beauty or God.
What we seem to miss is that our authentic experience of self is interminable linked to our society.
And where does mind come from if not biology as it encounters the physical and social world?They don't have the surgery to meet society's expectations, they have the surgery to feel that their body matches their mind.
If parenting involves irreparable physical harm, don't you think most people would want to have the state "parent" instead?Seems like a lot of people want to parent other people's children.
Interesting.
You already labeled it as harm.If parenting involves irreparable physical harm, don't you think most people would want to have the state "parent" instead?
And for you good reason is >? No one is doing this thinking "ah, it'll be like an ear piercing"If you are the ~ 1 in 20,000 who have a SRY-gene translocation or AIS or similar genetic condition then I will do the same as I would do for any other patient:
Explain the genetics
Present the options to the parents
Let them decide what to do
Where I personally draw the line is a parent trying to force their genotypically and phenotypically normal child to change genders for no good reason. That's child abuse.
Indeed, I never denied that the embodied facts of sex differences. I did argue the sociological situation of gendered norms. Even if testosterone is higher here, and estrogen lower there, how society deals with those differences, the expectations and bounds of behavior it accepts and legitimates, is a function of gendered norms. The "mind" is nothing magical, it is a function of a brain in a vat encountering the physical and social world. There is nothing in the physical world that demands gendered mutilation, it is only the encounter with the social world that creates a feeling of 'wrongness'.It's unfortunate that gender issues is a political issue. There is a tremendous wealth of knowledge that the common folk is not aware of that may give them a false premise of sex and gender that they should not be influencing policy on this front. It's easy to think gender is entirely a sociological concept and sex is a simple as the equipment between the legs, but reality is nowhere near that simple. There is a tremendous amount of biological influences between sexes that influences cognition and behavior. The obvious ones being the hormonal ones. Even still in utero, a male baby is exposed to a significantly higher amounts of testosterone in the mother's womb. This results in many measureable effects, not just on sex organs, but in structures in the brain. One such structure is the aptly named sexually dimorphic nucleus of the hypothalamus which is twice as large in straight men as it is in women and gay men. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexually_dimorphic_nucleus
The effects of testosterone on behavior is well studied. Even chimpanzees show gender preferences similar to ours in toys. Female chimps prefer dolls while male chimps trucks and cars. It's obvious that chimps would not have the same sociological constructs of gender as we do, yet they show similar gender behaviors. Further solidifying a causal link between the biology of gender and behavior is female monkeys with congenital adrenal hyperplasia that elevates their testosterone to levels of males show similar gender preferences as male chimps. They prefer the same toys and engage in the same rough and tumble play. Testosterone is known for masculinizing behavior - aggression, competitiveness, development of strength.
The effects of raising someone under the wrong gender than the masculinization processes during development can be devastating. One such case is the boy named Bruce who had a botched circumcision and the doctor decided to give him gender reassignment to a female and have him raised as a girl. This made a lot of sense given the dominant belief at the time is that gender is entirely sociological. Bruce never felt right as a female and often showed male interests and activities and never considered himself as a boy. He was not accepted as a girl by his peers. At the age of 14, he found out about his history and reverted back to being a male. However, the damage has been done. At the age of 38, he committed suicide. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1332396/Bruce-Reimer-Tragic-twin-boy-brought-girl.html
Indeed, I never denied that the embodied facts of sex differences. I did argue the sociological situation of gendered norms. Even if testosterone is higher here, and estrogen lower there, how society deals with those differences, the expectations and bounds of behavior it accepts and legitimates, is a function of gendered norms. The "mind" is nothing magical, it is a function of a brain in a vat encountering the physical and social world. There is nothing in the physical world that demands gendered mutilation, it is only the encounter with the social world that creates a feeling of 'wrongness'.
A desire to change that that vat based on encounters in the social world doesn't negate the authenticity of that desire; but if we do not properly situate the question of causation we will not get to an honest account of the bounds and causes.
Yes.Should everyone be exposed to talks/classes on gender studies so they become more open on a range of behaviors for a gender?
In extreme cases of gender dysphoria, the presence of the "wrong" genitals causes a lot of mental discomfort. I feel like you're attempting to speak from authority on a subject with which you're not all that familiar.Indeed, I never denied that the embodied facts of sex differences. I did argue the sociological situation of gendered norms. Even if testosterone is higher here, and estrogen lower there, how society deals with those differences, the expectations and bounds of behavior it accepts and legitimates, is a function of gendered norms. The "mind" is nothing magical, it is a function of a brain in a vat encountering the physical and social world. There is nothing in the physical world that demands gendered mutilation, it is only the encounter with the social world that creates a feeling of 'wrongness'.