Gender is not sex.
And brace yourself, there are genetically people who fall into neither of your binary categories, because as it turns out gender AND sex are not binary. Let the shock wash over you and then apply this to your larger worldview.
Gender is not sex.Well if you go to the restroom and pull down your panties and take a look you either have a Penis or a Vagina. That is a pretty simple way to perform an evaluation. Any other supposed genders are learned behaviour based on some kind of mental conditioning. Sure you may not be comfortable with your birth assigned state of sexuality, but a lot of that is just societal norms we learn or grow into. It is all in your head.
Sorry you feel that way. We would both benefit if instead of "meh." you explained where you see me as right and where you see limitations.In extreme cases of gender dysphoria, the presence of the "wrong" genitals causes a lot of mental discomfort. I feel like you're attempting to speak from authority on a subject with which you're not all that familiar.
Again: The "mind" is nothing magical, it is a function of a brain in a vat encountering the physical and social world. There is nothing in the physical world that demands gendered mutilation, it is only an encounter with the social world that creates a feeling of 'wrongness'.Gender is not sex.
And brace yourself, there are genetically people who fall into neither of your binary categories, because as it turns out gender AND sex are not binary. Let the shock wash over you and then apply this to your larger worldview.
You remove the genetic minutiae still beyond our comprehension from your evaluation. Not to mention countless other parts of the pituitary system that can affect one's sense of self.Sorry you feel that way. We would both benefit if instead of "meh." you explained where you see me as right and where you see limitations.
Again: The "mind" is nothing magical, it is a function of a brain in a vat encountering the physical and social world. There is nothing in the physical world that demands gendered mutilation, it is only an encounter with the social world that creates a feeling of 'wrongness'.
In fact, supporting this mutilation to be 'right' denies the multiplicity of positions one can be in as it relates to the biology that underlies our social-definition of gender as binary.
Well if you go to the restroom and pull down your panties and take a look you either have a Penis or a Vagina. That is a pretty simple way to perform an evaluation. Any other supposed genders are learned behaviour based on some kind of mental conditioning. Sure you may not be comfortable with your birth assigned state of sexuality, but a lot of that is just societal norms we learn or grow into. It is all in your head.
I had seen a study some time back that involved some interesting tests on mice that seemed to strongly suggest that some knowledge can be passed onto offspring strictly via the reproductive process (aka "genetic memory"). If such an internal system were at work to create the feeling of wrongness would that change your view point at all? In general I agree that destroying healthy reproductive parts in kids should be labeled as mutilation and certainly not carried out what. Is there though some criteria that could be met in your mind where healthy mind considerations trump the wish not to mutilate someone?Again: The "mind" is nothing magical, it is a function of a brain in a vat encountering the physical and social world. There is nothing in the physical world that demands gendered mutilation, it is only an encounter with the social world that creates a feeling of 'wrongness'.
And brace yourself, there are genetically people who fall into neither of your binary categories, because as it turns out gender AND sex are not binary. Let the shock wash over you and then apply this to your larger worldview.
All the information is available to you, I don't see any particular benefit for myself in breaking it down for you.Sorry you feel that way. We would both benefit if instead of "meh." you explained where you see me as right and where you see limitations.
Right now we make these decisions based on "social or emotional harm" which is bullshit: it keeps us from accepting the diversity and complexity of the human condition by physiologically forcing people into a mold so that we can feel more comfortable with them (and its our lack of comfort that makes them so much less comfortable).
"I am sure you would agree that we can not realistically expect that kind of societal change to happen in a time frame that would be useful to help people suffering now."
A single generation is all you need; how long will it take? Depends on how many people come up with patch-work solutions for the existing way of thinking.
So we agree its a social sickness, but you're on board for a society that mutilates people instead of recognizes that it's mutating people in order to obtain conformity.While a single generation might be all you need, to start the change, that would be true for all other large social changes and when I look at how long large scale perception shifts in society seem at actually take to change I think getting rid of something as entrenched in religion, government, and corporations as a gender binary is not going to happen in single generation. I would point to things like racial equality and gay rights as a bit more of an accurate measure stick as to how long it would take society perception to change.
While I cant say that body mutilation is a solution that I find very palatable (at least in the cases where it destroys functioning reproductive systems) I do actually find gender reassignment surgery something akin to the much higher number of amputations we used to perform before we discovered penicillin. Mental well being while not being nearly as well understood as physical well being seems to me to be actually of more importance that physical well being when it comes to having a fulfilling life.
I don't think we know enough about it yet to make that firm of a statement. Gender dysphoria may extend to mismatch of the genitals. It may not be as simple as social ostracism of mismatched genitals to behavior and there may be a more "hardwired" aspect going on. Your theory should definitely be considered and explored more though.So we agree its a social sickness, but you're on board for a society that mutilates people instead of recognizes that it's mutating people in order to obtain conformity.
If I'm reading that right, then I can see where you are coming from; though I don't respect it because I know too well how poorly informed psychologists are.
That is, I know what the limitations off their best empirical methods are, and how often even the best methods are not followed, and thus the idea that we would hang bodily mutilation on the epistemic certainty provided by their nit-witted gibberish is something between scary and sickening.
That's a fair take. I'll post again in this thread with whatever evidence I collect.I don't think we know enough about it yet to make that firm of a statement. Gender dysphoria may extend to mismatch of the genitals. It may not be as simple as social ostracism of mismatched genitals to behavior and there may be a more "hardwired" aspect going on. Your theory should definitely be considered and explored more though.
That's factually incorrect. The trait theory of personality is only held by some very old, or very confused, social psychologists. Everyone else recognizes that all of what were once called personality traits are a complex interaction between biology and environment. fMRI studies have been constantly confirming different kinds of neuroplasticity in adults since the early 2000s.But in either way your personality is physically hardwired in you and is not subject to change by any means, you are born with it.
What they mean by neuroplasticity is adapting to new conditions/living environment and learning new things, changing some behavior and so on, neuroplasticity is heavily involved in habits - repetition creates them, when you stop doing something it stops being your habit, none of this however, is subject to sex orientation. How do you want to change sex orientation by neuroplasticity? Dude it's permanent, you can't change what they feel and perceive. I don't want to bother to search for scientific evidence, it has been subject to many studies by now that changing sex orientation of any kind to any other is not possible and does not happen.That's factually incorrect. The trait theory of personality is only held by some very old, or very confused, social psychologists. Everyone else recognizes that all of what were once called personality traits are a complex interaction between biology and environment. fMRI studies have been constantly confirming different kinds of neuroplasticity in adults since the early 2000s.
That's the thing: I wouldn't want to. I would, on the other hand, want to change bigotry: which is i not a personality trait. I want to change the bigotry that makes it so we mutilate people to fit our norms of gender instead of accepting people in the gendered roles they wan to carry out in society. Further, in developmental psychology there is a large literature on people who feel authentically one way, then later authentically another. Permanently mutilating a child for what cannot be reasonably distinguished from a temporary error in self-understanding, is monstrous.What they mean by neuroplasticity is adapting to new conditions/living environment and learning new things, changing some behavior and so on, neuroplasticity is heavily involved in habits - repetition creates them, when you stop doing something it stops being your habit, none of this however, is subject to sex orientation. How do you want to change sex orientation by neuroplasticity? Dude it's permanent, you can't change what they feel and perceive. I don't want to bother to search for scientific evidence, it has been subject to many studies by now that changing sex orientation of any kind to any other is not possible and does not happen.
I can't really make a statement about what should be done in case of transgender children, I mean should they not be allowed to be the other gender? That probably would be harmful for them if they feel like the other gender, identify with it, or should be allowed that and supported without being fully certain it may be temporary because they are not yet able to decide for, is that harmful to them too? I don't know, endless legal, ethical and philosophical questions around this subject have arose and no one has any answers really.That's the thing: I wouldn't want to. I would, on the other hand, want to change bigotry: which is i not a personality trait. I want to change the bigotry that makes it so we mutilate people to fit our norms of gender instead of accepting people in the gendered roles they wan to carry out in society. Further, in developmental psychology there is a large literature on people who feel authentically one way, then later authentically another. Permanently mutilating a child for what cannot be reasonably distinguished from a temporary error in self-understanding, is monstrous.
Watch the video in the opening. It's about an adult woman who didn't fully recognize, or weigh, the consequences of transitioning, and now regrets having tried. I'm not begrudging an adult their right to plastic surgery, I'm saying kids shouldn't be mutilated because of our sick social norms.
https://youtu.be/QkaQ6_Q6owk
Nah. Old people will continue to have a problem with it, and other than those raised in the old strict conservative ways, young people will not have a problem with it.most of the world population is straight and finds them and their behavior repulsive which is caused by biology, this is not a social construct that someone invented in the year X, and can be changed just because some activist in the TV demands so.
Interracials, age-disparity and probably more of these may be extremes at some point but they do not deviate biology, this is not same a thing.Nah. Old people will continue to have a problem with it, and other than those raised in the old strict conservative ways, young people will not have a problem with it.
Just like we see with interracial couples, by and large it's still mostly stodgy old people that disapprove, and young people can't even see how that's a thing that you'd get upset over.
I have no idea what this sentence is supposed to mean.Interracials, age-disparity and probably more of these may be extremes at some point but they do not deviate biology, this is not same a thing.
I'll rephrase, interracial relationship you mentioned is not same thing as LGBT one.I have no idea what this sentence is supposed to mean.
Can you support in any way there being an actual underlying biological reaction that causes repulsion among straight people upon seeing "gay stuff"? With, you know, actual scientific data?
Or am I misunderstanding your statement? I admit there's a good chance of that.
I'll rephrase, interracial relationship you mentioned is not same thing as LGBT one.
Other than that, what proof you want? Holding hands or kissing in public are some examples that are repulsive to straight people no matter how tolerant or understanding they may be. Not sure what evidence you looking for, this thing is so obvious that if you asked me to scientifically prove to you that grass is green instead, it would make more sense.
As I said I don't have anything against them, if that is what they want I'm ok with it, but I don't really like (or get) their public display, as I said before, most of the world population is straight and so some of them should keep proportionality in mind and keep it to themselves, that's all.
Some 24 million sites on topic, just for you
You can't claim it's biologically driven unless you've got evidence.I'll rephrase, interracial relationship you mentioned is not same thing as LGBT one.
Other than that, what proof you want? Holding hands or kissing in public are some examples that are repulsive to straight people no matter how tolerant or understanding they may be. Not sure what evidence you looking for, this thing is so obvious that if you asked me to scientifically prove to you that grass is green instead, it would make more sense.
As I said I don't have anything against them, if that is what they want I'm ok with it, but I don't really like (or get) their public display, as I said before, most of the world population is straight and so some of them should keep proportionality in mind and keep it to themselves, that's all.
Some 24 million sites on topic, just for you