Trinity prices leaked

[Hubb1e]

The point I was trying to make by bringing in the example of my brother, is that it is quite difficult for average consumers to make good decisions about what they need in their computer. My brother thought he was getting a good gaming computer, only to get a CPU monster and an extremely weak GPU that caused problems when he tried to play his game. Most families buy a general computer and then throw Apps at it without thinking about the hardware in the computer. They just know if feels fast or slow. The kids may one day want to play Diablo III but their poorly specced computer can't handle it even if the computer is relatively new. Trinity is a better balanced machine for a family because the CPU is fast enough, and the GPU is fast enough. Sure, an Intel i3 with a 6670 would be a better buy for this average family, but as my example shows off the shelf computers are never specced that way. More often than not I see a fast CPU paired with a barely adequate GPU not much better than the IGP in the box. In the case of my brother's box, the GPU was actually almost slower than the IGP.

People keep telling me that Haswell will change this. That Intel is finally ready to put a real GPU in their CPU. Well, I'm not so sure. The new Ivy i3s are out and they feature HD2500 graphics. Barely better than the HD2000 that came before. They are intentionally gimped. If Intel was serious about GPUs then the HD4000 would be in most of their chips except those that are binned for non-functioning IGPs.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

As far as I know I am still the only one who has ever written a review that points out the very very serious critical problems with IGP multitasking performance... even basic multitasking such as a facebook game plus a youtube clip.

lol.

I'm typing this on my secondary monitor while running L4D2 on a 1080p monitor with an A8-3870K.

 

[frozentundra123456]

The point I was trying to make by bringing in the example of my brother, is that it is quite difficult for average consumers to make good decisions about what they need in their computer. My brother thought he was getting a good gaming computer, only to get a CPU monster and an extremely weak GPU that caused problems when he tried to play his game. Most families buy a general computer and then throw Apps at it without thinking about the hardware in the computer. They just know if feels fast or slow. The kids may one day want to play Diablo III but their poorly specced computer can't handle it even if the computer is relatively new. Trinity is a better balanced machine for a family because the CPU is fast enough, and the GPU is fast enough. Sure, an Intel i3 with a 6670 would be a better buy for this average family, but as my example shows off the shelf computers are never specced that way. More often than not I see a fast CPU paired with a barely adequate GPU not much better than the IGP in the box. In the case of my brother's box, the GPU was actually almost slower than the IGP.

People keep telling me that Haswell will change this. That Intel is finally ready to put a real GPU in their CPU. Well, I'm not so sure. The new Ivy i3s are out and they feature HD2500 graphics. Barely better than the HD2000 that came before. They are intentionally gimped. If Intel was serious about GPUs then the HD4000 would be in most of their chips except those that are binned for non-functioning IGPs.

Each to his own I guess. But to me igps, even Trinity are like the "do a little bit of everything, but nothing well" saying. You mentioned Diablo III. I played that on a 9800GT which I would think is still faster than any igp on the market. Sure the reviews said it didnt take a strong graphics card, but on higher difficulties with huge mobs, I saw a lot of slowdowns and had to turn off some graphical enhancements. I cant imagine an igp handling it well at all. And lest anyone think I am anti-AMD, I think their graphics cards, especially on the low to mid range are great. I just cant see why anyone would want to game on a desktop without a discrete card. Laptops and all in ones may be more suited for an igp, where power savings are more important and they are not easily upgradable.

 

[Stoneburner]

I hope this site does a review and comparison of intel v. AMD for HTPC purposes. HTPC used to be simple: As long as you can playback 1080p content, you were golden. Now, with new formats, 4k looming, 3d, as well as video quality differences, I have no idea what's the best route for a lower power HTPC.

I am considering an IVB i3 plus a Passive 7750. However, if an A10 can cover all my needs it will be perfect. The GPU and CPU combined into an 100w envelope would be preferable to a discrete GPU solution.

Then again, maybe the hd4000 is good enough for HTPC use? My memory tells me that AMD and NVIDIA video quality is superior to intel's though.

 

[pelov]

Then again, maybe the hd4000 is good enough for HTPC use? My memory tells me that AMD and NVIDIA video quality is superior to intel's though.

Intel has made some strides here but they're still not at the same level as the discrete GPU makers yet.

As far as the HTPC goes, that really depends on what you'll be doing with it. If it's just streaming video then a lowly APU or Sandy i3 would suffice. If you're looking to do some light gaming (even at 1080p) then go with Trinity. Quicksync is nice, but bear in mind it will only work if the program is compliant. Some formats it just won't work for, just like some programs won't jive with it. Then there's the issue of image quality, drivers and openCL and GPU acceleration to throw into that mess as well and it becomes a nightmare...

First and foremost you've got to see what your needs are and what you'll be using in the near future. Thankfully, I don't think you can go wrong either way.

- unless it's Linux Quicksync isn't supported on Linux whereas openCL seems to be doing quite well.

 

[Stoneburner]

Intel has made some strides here but they're still not at the same level as the discrete GPU makers yet.

As far as the HTPC goes, that really depends on what you'll be doing with it. If it's just streaming video then a lowly APU or Sandy i3 would suffice. If you're looking to do some light gaming (even at 1080p) then go with Trinity. Quicksync is nice, but bear in mind it will only work if the program is compliant. Some formats it just won't work for, just like some programs won't jive with it. Then there's the issue of image quality, drivers and openCL and GPU acceleration to throw into that mess as well and it becomes a nightmare...

First and foremost you've got to see what your needs are and what you'll be using in the near future. Thankfully, I don't think you can go wrong either way.

It's all those "other" considerations that are bothering me. Rethenx on AVS forums used to issue updates all the time, but he has not. It is difficult finding a single source that focuses on HTPC usage.

My current HTPC is basically 2-core a64 with a radeon 5670. It's served me well. But sometimes when it's using a high resolution source (such as 4k) it slows down even when outputting to 1080p. Granted the a64 is outdated these days, but I do not want to run into any further problems. I want maximum compatibility, low system TDP, and best possible image quality.

 

[pelov]

But sometimes when it's using a high resolution source (such as 4k) it slows down even when outputting to 1080p

4K res as a standard is still a long ways away. We're likely to see OLED overtake LED well before we see 4K brought in. Regardless, you're going to need a lot of both CPU and GPU power to provide the same frame rates you're used to now at 1080p.

You're looking for a future-proof system in a climate that moves quickly. Getting ahead of the curve is an impossibility. At best you can hope to make something that will remain relevant for a while If that's what you're looking for then make an Ivy system with a drop-in GPU, that way you have the flexibility of upgrading a component at a time if need be. I'd also make it an AMD GPU, as nVidia's CUDA looks to be dead in the water as far as future software support goes. HSA/openCL has picked up a lot of steam as of late.

 

[Blitzvogel]

Each to his own I guess. But to me igps, even Trinity are like the "do a little bit of everything, but nothing well" saying. You mentioned Diablo III. I played that on a 9800GT which I would think is still faster than any igp on the market. Sure the reviews said it didnt take a strong graphics card, but on higher difficulties with huge mobs, I saw a lot of slowdowns and had to turn off some graphical enhancements. I cant imagine an igp handling it well at all. And lest anyone think I am anti-AMD, I think their graphics cards, especially on the low to mid range are great. I just cant see why anyone would want to game on a desktop without a discrete card. Laptops and all in ones may be more suited for an igp, where power savings are more important and they are not easily upgradable.

I agree with this. I think people put way too much faith into these newer IGPs, Trinity, Llano, or otherwise when it comes to gaming. If you have a desktop and you expect to game, you might as well go for a discrete GPU. They are way too hampered by memory bandwidth. Those with low profile systems don't have too many options, but many of those options are head over heels better performing than Trinity or Llano. There are low profile 7750s from HIS and Sapphire now that will should beat AMDs best IGPs by twice if not more. While that doesn't sound like much, it's important to consider that as bandwidth needs go up with higher settings, resolution, AF, and AA, the performance is going to start suffering much quicker with the IGPs. You have to also consider the TDW of these processors and how they might start throttling if their graphics and cores start to heat up.

 

[Blitzvogel]

Sorry for the double post, but I'd figure it would be useful info:

GFLOPS for the various Trinity APUs
(MHz x number of stream processors x 2) / 1,000,000,000 = raw GFLOPS
I know this calc works for the other VLIW4 GPUs

A10-5800K: 614.4 - 384 shaders @ 800 MHz
A10-5700: 583.6 - 384 shaders @ 760 MHz
A8-5600K: 389.1 - 256 shaders @ 760 MHz
A8-5500: 389.1 256 shaders @ 760 MHz

I couldn't find GPU clocks for the A6 and A4 but I hear they have 192 shaders and 128 shaders respectively so we have an idea of what the GFLOPS could be.

While VLIW4 should be quite efficient, especially versus VLIW5, it won't match GCN in terms of efficiency. The Radeon 7750's 512 shaders @ 800 MHz is 819.2 GFLOPS. That is only about 33% higher raw GFLOPS, but they will be more efficient GFLOPS in rendering, not to mention it's probably safe to assume the top end 7660D probably has 24 to 16 TMUs (I assume 4 TMUs per 64 ALU cluster?) and 8 ROPs. The 7750 has 32 TMUs and 16 ROPs which will continue to put it at a big advantage, especially as the AF, AA, and resolution is dialed up and the bandwidth starved. So it looks like Trinity could match Turks on a lucky day.

 

[MLSCrow]

I know that AMD recently announced price drops for Llano and FX CPU's, but since then prices have dropped even more. We can now find both an A8-3870K for $109.99 at the Egg as well as the FX8150 for $189.99.

Obviously they want to sell of their stock before launching the replacement units, but perhaps we can speculate as to what the FX8350 Vishera will cost based on the leaked prices of these Trinity chips. Considering that the A10-5800 is going to be the replacement for the A8-3870K and that it's going to be launched at $130, maybe it will be true that we will see the FX8350 at ~$200 price point.

I don't want to get my own hopes up or that of others, but if the 8350 will truly launch at that price point, well, I suppose I will forget my idea about building an IB system and simply drop in the 8350 into my AM3+ board while I wait for Steamroller to come out (which I keep reading rumors will also be released on the AM3+ platform, which is extra good news, at least for AMD fans like myself [well, a fan of competition in the market really]).

 

[Centauri]

I'm surprised the Llano stuff hasn't dropped more; the 3870K has been $110-120 for several months.

 

[KompuKare]

I know that AMD recently announced price drops for Llano and FX CPU's, but since then prices have dropped even more. We can now find both an A8-3870K for $109.99 at the Egg as well as the FX8150 for $189.99.

Obviously they want to sell of their stock before launching the replacement units, but perhaps we can speculate as to what the FX8350 Vishera will cost based on the leaked prices of these Trinity chips...[snip]

I seem to remember seeing rumours that it's not AMD who have excess stock of Llano but rather that some mobo makers, OEM and the retail channels have far too many FM1 boards and AMD are continuing to sell Llano for longer than planned so that the OEMs can clear their stock.

Don't know why they didn't design Llano and Trinity to use the same sockets: FM1>FM2 is as bad as LGA1156>GLA1155.

 

[T_Yamamoto]

I seem to remember seeing rumours that it's not AMD who have excess stock of Llano but rather that some mobo makers, OEM and the retail channels have far too many FM1 boards and AMD are continuing to sell Llano for longer than planned so that the OEMs can clear their stock.

Don't know why they didn't design Llano and Trinity to use the same sockets: FM1>FM2 is as bad as LGA1156>GLA1155.

Make moar moneyz

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

I don't think people quite understand the point of Fusion; it's lower component cost through integration and decreased total power consumption. Harping on about pairing an Intel CPU and a graphics card doesn't negate either of those goals seeing realization.

I don't know about that...

Both the Celeron G530 and HD 6670 sip power. Not sure what the argument here is.

 

[pelov]

Both the Celeron G530 and HD 6670 sip power. Not sure what the argument here is.

I think his argument was that your suggestion would require more power and take up more room... which they would... also overall platform cost...

You can shave off parts of the PCB entirely and make a slim and small design with just a single chip. SoCs are taking off because of the convenience factor and price considerations, not because they're awesome number-crunchers.

 

[Roland00Address]

Now, with new formats, 4k looming, 3d, as well as video quality differences

Nobody that is rational is worry about 4k right now. Once we have 4k tvs that are under 3 grand will people care about htpc that can play it.

Also most htpc users honestly don't care about 3d. There is a significant minority but I would say that is less than 10% who build a htpc.

Image quality differences, how it hands 23.97, light gaming, noise, heat, power draw, and user interface are factors that are more likely to be concerns of htpc users than 4k and 3d.

In a few years you may have a point, but in a few years there is a very good chance you will be using a different computer for htpc use than you do now. It was only Feb 2005 that youtube was launched (7.5 years ago) and google acquired it Oct 2006 (almost 6 years ago)

 

[meloz]

BLT has released AMDs Trinity price list.

Trinity specs,

K models (5400, 5600 and 5800) are multiplier unlocked.

Strong pricing.

These prices -if true- will keep some pressure on Intel to give value to the under $130 segment, as well. AMD cannot pressure Intel for outright performance, but any motivation to improve the lower segment CPUs is most welcome. :thumbsup:

If AMD open-sourced their graphic drivers, these processors would instantly become the choice for all linux desktop users. Sadly AMD continue to treat linux users as second tier while sucking up to Microsoft.

 

[Vesku]

Strong pricing.

These prices -if true- will keep some pressure on Intel to give value to the under $130 segment, as well. AMD cannot pressure Intel for outright performance, but any motivation to improve the lower segment CPUs is most welcome. :thumbsup:

If AMD open-sourced their graphic drivers, these processors would instantly become the choice for all linux desktop users. Sadly AMD continue to treat linux users as second tier while sucking up to Microsoft.

http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/Open-GPU-Documentation-by-AMD

AMD has been pretty open with GPU documentation for ~4 years. The progression timeline of the opensource drivers just shows that writing graphics drivers is quite hard.

 

[NostaSeronx]

Make moar moneyz

Actually, FM1 and FM2 have two different power delivery systems.

AMD Llano idles around 5-12 watts. (Majority of parts didn't have turbo core either)
AMD Trinity idles around 0.9-3 watts.

FM1's power design is closer to the AM(x) design. While FM2's power design is closer to the LGA 115(x) design. AMD FM2 boards will look almost exactly the same or very similar to Intel LGA 115(x) boards. While, FM1 boards pretty much look like OEM 770/870/970 boards, who would ever buy those.

 

[daveybrat]

We actually sell a lot of AMD systems at the small computer store where i work. During the fall and winter season gaming pc sales pick up.

These A10 chips are going to sell very well for budget gaming machines.

I'll wait to see if Microcenter has any hot bundle deals on these at launch. Would love the A10-5700 chip to upgrade my media center pc.

 

[meloz]

http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/Open-GPU-Documentation-by-AMD

AMD has been pretty open with GPU documentation for ~4 years. The progression timeline of the opensource drivers just shows that writing graphics drivers is quite hard.

Sorry, documentation is not substitute for working drivers. AMD approach is pathetic: they make profit by sale of hardware, they should be the one providing the drivers. Not 'freesourcing' the task to individuals in the OSS comuunity.

 

[pelov]

Sorry, documentation is not substitute for working drivers. AMD approach is pathetic: they make profit by sale of hardware, they should be the one providing the drivers. Not 'freesourcing' the task to individuals in the OSS comuunity.

It's the OSS community and Linux. In fact, that's how your favorite distro was developed.

AMD is actually a lot more open than a lot of hardware vendors with regards to their approach. They're quite Linux friendly

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

I think his argument was that your suggestion would require more power and take up more room... which they would... also overall platform cost...

You can shave off parts of the PCB entirely and make a slim and small design with just a single chip. SoCs are taking off because of the convenience factor and price considerations, not because they're awesome number-crunchers.

Do you have any proof of this?

The parts I mentioned can fit in any conventional mid-tower case, even a micro-atx case.

Also:
Celeron G530: $45
Radeon HD 6670 DDR5: $85
1x4GB DDR3-1333: $19
H61 motherboard: $60
Total: $209

AMD A10-5800K: $130
2x2GB DDR3-1600: $25
A55 motherboard: $60
Total: $214

Where is this supposedly higher platform cost? If you look online, prices say otherwise. If you want cheap gaming a Celeron G530 and an HD 6670 DDR5 will horribly smash an A10-5800K.

They both use next to no power, too.

 

[pelov]

The TDP of the two parts you're considering is higher than a Trinity counterpart. Power consumption, too, would be greater as Trinity is actually more efficient than both Sandy and Ivy in idle and low clocked P-states. In full load you'll get more power consumption and heat with a discrete 6670 and a G530.

Where is this supposedly higher platform cost? If you look online, prices say otherwise. If you want cheap gaming a Celeron G530 and an HD 6670 DDR5 will horribly smash an A10-5800K.

Platform cost also implies the other components, not just the discrete GPU and CPU. You're also going to need cooling for both chips as opposed to just one, a longer bigger and wider PCB to support a PCIE card and a beefier PSU. All of these cost money.

A single chip solution allows OEMs more flexibility with what they produce. A lot of new designs are touch-based all-in-ones and having a single chip makes much more sense than a discrete + CPU option. It saves them money on the platform, allows the product to be cheaper, makes for a thinner and sexier look and all the while offering similar performance figures.

You're looking at it from an enthusiast perspective: swappable components + better performance. OEMs don't look at it that way and neither do a majority of consumers. If consumers and OEMs were like us then we wouldn't have Ultrabooks and tablets and nor would laptops outsell PCs at a > 3-to-1 ratio like they are now.

 

[Rvenger]

If you want cheap gaming a Celeron G530 and an HD 6670 DDR5 will horribly smash an A10-5800K.

I doubt that it will "Horribly Smash" it. I owned a 6670 and its not that great of a card. lol


I rather have a quad core than a dual core anyways.. I played BF3 on a G530 and its not that pleasant. At least I know if I were to add a discrete card to the Trinity setup that I would get even more solid gaming performance rather than a CPU bottleneck due to lack of cores for some games.