Trolling is Serious Buisness

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Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
The fact that you can equate that with a transsexual person using a bathroom is beyond absurd.

The fact that you think that feelings are a suitable standard for years of incarceration is beyond absurd. Of course I didn't expect you to understand the illustration.

And I'm pretty sure, like really fucking sure that if some shit poster right out in the open told me they'd make me choke on their cock or they'd rape me if I were better looking you'd laugh at me if I said I were actually afraid of them. And think it were completely beyond outrageous to suggest they get three years time for it. Admit it.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,518
223
106
The fact that you think that feelings are a suitable standard for years of incarceration is beyond absurd. Of course I didn't expect you to understand the illustration.

And I'm pretty sure, like really fucking sure that if some shit poster right out in the open told me they'd make me choke on their cock or they'd rape me if I were better looking you'd laugh at me if I said I were actually afraid of them. And think it were completely beyond outrageous to suggest they get three years time for it. Admit it.

You completely missed my entire point - but you've already decided that it's perfectly okay to be a repulsive human being with absolutely no legal repercussions. I've also never stated that "feelings are a suitable standard for years of incarceration." If you're going to talk to me, don't make shit up.

Anyway, the court in Australia says you're wrong, and that's all that matters for this particular case. Better luck next time, I guess.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
You completely missed my entire point - but you've already decided that it's perfectly okay to be a repulsive human being with absolutely no legal repercussions. I've also never stated that "feelings are a suitable standard for years of incarceration." If you're going to talk to me, don't make shit up.

People are repulsive human beings with no legal repercussions in all manner of fashion. We can talk about legal repercussions for cheating on your spouse or refusing to help your parents when they're old or breaking your promises to friends or telling your kids they're going to hell for having sex or saying that all white men should be killed. Is that what we're talking about? Legal repercussions for being repulsive? Because I'd rather have standards based on things like actually causing someone physical harm or material damage or things like that, not enraging them with shit posts on the internet.

Years of incarceration is what's on the table here. I oppose that. God knows what you actually think the punishment is supposed to be, I don't believe you've said anything. You sure haven't seen you said that years isn't okay, just "fuck him."

Anyway, the court in Australia says you're wrong, and that's all that matters for this particular case. Better luck next time, I guess.

Yeah, and so what? Maybe what he did was against Austraiian law - hard to tell since it wasn't really tested in court, but I really don't care. Just means that they have a shitty law.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,518
223
106
People are repulsive human beings with no legal repercussions in all manner of fashion. We can talk about legal repercussions for cheating on your spouse or refusing to help your parents when they're old or breaking your promises to friends or telling your kids they're going to hell for having sex or saying that all white men should be killed. Is that what we're talking about? Legal repercussions for being repulsive? Because I'd rather have standards based on things like actually causing someone physical harm or material damage or things like that, not enraging them with shit posts on the internet.

Years of incarceration is what's on the table here. I oppose that. God knows what you actually think the punishment is supposed to be, I don't believe you've said anything. You sure haven't seen you said that years isn't okay, just "fuck him."

Yeah, and so what? Maybe what he did was against Austraiian law - hard to tell since it wasn't really tested in court, but I really don't care. Just means that they have a shitty law.

You have no sympathy for the victim (and based on your attitude, probably none towards victimized women in general). I have no sympathy for the harasser. Seems we're even, at worst.

Your arguments:
Exophase said:
I don't believe at all that he gave the woman good cause to feel threatened (if she even did, which I doubt) nor did he even make a nuisance of himself. Framing this as "sexual violence" is a total joke.
Exophase said:
It's not harassment if it's not directed to you.
It's been proven that it was directed at her. Let's explore the law, courtesy of lylawyers.com.au:
In order to be convicted of this offence, the police must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that:
You used a carriage service and
You did so in a way (whether by the method of use or the content of a communication, or both) that a reasonable person would regard as being, in all the circumstances, menacing, harassing or offensive.

Of relevance to this offence is that:
“Harass” typically means to trouble or annoy by a repeated course of conduct. However, a single telephone call may be harassment depending on the contents of the words uttered, or the time and circumstances in which the call was made even if words were not uttered.
“Menace” means to cause a normally courageous person to feel apprehensive for their safety because of the call or calls. It isn’t necessary for a call to threaten actual harm for it to be menacing. Nor is it necessary for the communication to be made directly to the person menaced. As long as the caller intends the communication to be communicated to the ultimate recipient, it is enough.

Since the entire foundation of your initial argument was disproven, now you are effectively claiming that harassment laws should not exist at all:
Exophase said:
Because I'd rather have standards based on things like actually causing someone physical harm or material damage or things like that
However, as Mr. Alchin discovered, harassment laws do exist. I'm glad I don't live in a world where you have to "actually cause someone physical harm" for it to be a crime.

It appears that your last remaining defense is "they have a shitty law." You're entitled to your opinion, of course.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,983
3,169
136
These social trends are like pendulum. Right now we're swinging toward taking a more draconian rather than intelligent approach to the issue. But that's only because the issue was ignored for so long. So the first attempts to deal with it are naturally going to be overzealous, broad and imprecise. Eventually things will swing to a more even handed and circumspect approach.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,518
223
106
These social trends are like pendulum. Right now we're swinging toward taking a more draconian rather than intelligent approach to the issue. But that's only because the issue was ignored for so long. So the first attempts to deal with it are naturally going to be overzealous, broad and imprecise. Eventually things will swing to a more even handed and circumspect approach.

IMO the ideal solution would be for behavior like this to be publicly condemned to such an extent that it dwindles away. Unfortunately we aren't there yet.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
You have no sympathy for the victim (and based on your attitude, probably none towards victimized women in general). I have no sympathy for the harasser. Seems we're even, at worst.

Ah yes, since I don't think should be held criminally liable for being an asshole in an internet fight I clearly have no sympathy for their recipients. And amazingly, I also probably have no sympathy towards any female victims of anything. Bravo, this line of thinking is amazing.

I have sympathy for all people who have to deal with trolls online. Words are powerful, and even when you know someone is just trying to upset you it's hard to not always become upset anyway, and it's hard to not turn away when you should. I've seen stuff like what she's received and worse and it sucks, regardless of the gender of the recipient. I never shied away from calling it disgusting.

But retaliating with criminal charges and in particular incarceration is both unnecessary and counterproductive, not to mention ridiculously disproportionate. Putting someone in jail over this probably won't convince them that they did anything wrong, it'll just ruin their life for a while and subject them to much greater harm.


It's been proven that comments were made on Melville's Facebook, which is really moot given that it's Newton that pressed charges over comments made to her. But as far as initiating communication goes, by all appearances Newton was the one who first started talking to Alchin after he asked why another poster wasn't responding to him. Newton answered with "Because your disgusting and don't deserve our time and effort", and of course proceeded to give him her time and effort.

It's not completely clear what the total sequence of events is because the original posts are gone and we only have screenshots which pick what one side wanted to show.

Since the entire foundation of your initial argument was disproven, now you are effectively claiming that harassment laws should not exist at all:

There should be laws against persistent unwanted communication, eg stalking (including internet stalking). Saying offensive things in a heated argument is not something that I think should be considered harassment, and while there may be jurisdictions that would consider it that is far from universal. The scope of what we have to start opening the courts to would be off the charts - not that I think it'll ever be taken seriously unless such "harassment" covers a very narrow type of language and recipient.

However, as Mr. Alchin discovered, harassment laws do exist. I'm glad I don't live in a world where you have to "actually cause someone physical harm" for it to be a crime.

And I'm glad I live in a country where someone at some point decided that when disgusting people voice their reprehensible ideas we respond by showing how their ideas are stupid and wrong, rather than turning them into slaves.

Let me know when something like this happens in America.

Certainly, if someone makes comments that make it seem likely that they will impose harm on another person there's reason to arrest them. But this has to pass some kind of reasonable external standard, not just that someone is concerned. And by an even standard there would be absolutely zero reason to convict this guy but not convict the several people on Facebook saying that they want to assault him or even put a bullet in his head. Anyone who comes down hard on the one and refuses to talk about the other is not applying an impartial standard, plain and simple. Of course, most thinking people would realize that neither side is making credible threats and need to be detained. And I don't really believe that the people calling for this guy's conviction think he's threatening, they just think he should be jailed for saying things that are hateful and degrading to women.

It appears that your last remaining defense is "they have a shitty law." You're entitled to your opinion, of course.

You seem to think I was making a legal argument when I never was.

IMO the ideal solution would be for behavior like this to be publicly condemned to such an extent that it dwindles away. Unfortunately we aren't there yet.

The public is condemning the shit out of this. Even the guy who posted the Tinder profile, Chris Hall, lost his job over this. If you mean that such condemnation isn't making it go away entirely.. you can't seriously actually believe that would happen.
 
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motsm

Golden Member
Jan 20, 2010
1,822
2
76
He posted with the intent to offend, not to "get a laugh."
It goes hand in hand. He doesn't mean those things, he is saying them to provoke, and that obviously exaggerated provocation entertains him and others. Obviously I can't be in his head, but it doesn't take an expert to see that, unless he is unlike every troll that has ever existed. Have you never seen a stand up comedian say something just to provoke the audience? Half may boo, the other half laughs, because they can see exactly what is happening.

The most severe punishment he should face is being banned from Facebook, as I would assume it's against their policies.
 

DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,892
490
126
So when does thought policing kick in? Oh god, that person is looking at me, he must think I'm fat/slutty and mocking me in his head. I'm horribly offended and my feelings are badly hurt. Arrest his ass!
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
You don't throw internet trolls in jail, you ban them. What a waste of tax payer money and a waste of time and resources for all the people involved.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
In sports, one player can't sue another player for playing the game, even if it's rough or involves physical contact, right?

In a game such as poker, one player can't sue another player for lying or bluffing, right?

Apparently, in the game of Facebook, where the goal is to collect likes, entertain your friends, and argue, the losers CAN sue you.

What a world we live in.

Maybe if someone made a new social media platform, and specified in the click through TOS that the whole thing is a game, then people could argue and troll at will without worrying about such stupid laws.
 

master_shake_

Diamond Member
May 22, 2012
6,425
291
121
In sports, one player can't sue another player for playing the game, even if it's rough or involves physical contact, right?

In a game such as poker, one player can't sue another player for lying or bluffing, right?

Apparently, in the game of Facebook, where the goal is to collect likes, entertain your friends, and argue, the losers CAN sue you.

What a world we live in.

Maybe if someone made a new social media platform, and specified in the click through TOS that the whole thing is a game, then people could argue and troll at will without worrying about such stupid laws.

technically yes if they can prove malice.

i refer you to moore v bertuzzi
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81

That case was another travesty of justice, seeing as how the man was pronounced not guilty but still had all access to the internet revoked for years as a condition of bail. And of course lost his job and suffered immense legal bills.

Naturally when the verdict dropped the media was abuzz with how this was a blow to women's rights and safety everywhere.

Maybe if someone made a new social media platform, and specified in the click through TOS that the whole thing is a game, then people could argue and troll at will without worrying about such stupid laws.

I'd be amazed if a TOS stopped the application of a law like this.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
I'd be amazed if a TOS stopped the application of a law like this.

Well I mean, if a football player tried to sue another football player for assault "yeah he ran right into me and knocked me to the ground!" obviously it would be thrown out of court, right?

Same thing, except replace football with social media and replace physical assault with "harassment". Quotes around harassment, because it wouldn't involve seeking out the person to harass, you would only be harassing someone who is willingly participating. Kinda exactly like the situation in the linked article.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
I remember early on in WoW there were contingents of players on PvP servers who thought they could sue other players for harassment or denial of service because they were being killed and camped. Pretty sure nothing ever came from that, even if the pkilling did fit the legal definition of harassment.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,001
8,034
136
I remember early on in WoW there were contingents of players on PvP servers who thought they could sue other players for harassment or denial of service because they were being killed and camped. Pretty sure nothing ever came from that, even if the pkilling did fit the legal definition of harassment.

That'd be like saying you're suffering harassment in any PVP game... like Battlefield, cause this guy in an aircraft keeps blowing you to bits.
 

master_shake_

Diamond Member
May 22, 2012
6,425
291
121
That case was another travesty of justice, seeing as how the man was pronounced not guilty but still had all access to the internet revoked for years as a condition of bail. And of course lost his job and suffered immense legal bills.

Naturally when the verdict dropped the media was abuzz with how this was a blow to women's rights and safety everywhere.



I'd be amazed if a TOS stopped the application of a law like this.

isn't it time to #believewomen?

what a fucking joke.
 

Schmide

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2002
5,595
730
126
Man the Hyperbole in this thread is more than laughable.

An online game is not real life, although many may believe it to be, you fully maintain your privacy in game and there is no expectation of character safety.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
Man the Hyperbole in this thread is more than laughable.

An online game is not real life, although many may believe it to be, you fully maintain your privacy in game and there is no expectation of character safety.

Facebook. Is. Not. Real. Life.

The guy didn't stalk anyone. He didn't call someone on their home phone, or threaten them in public. He made some jokes on an online service, one which requires you to opt-in in order to communicate on it. At any time, the woman could have clicked on the image to "hide post", "report post", or to unfollow the person who created the post. OR, she could hide the posts that were actually bothering her, and left the original post in place since she seemed to find it okay.

Instead she choose to participate in the argument, by attempting to harass the harasser, proving that is indeed just a game she wanted to play, not real life.

WTF are you even talking about expectation of safety? There was no danger in the harassment case. Words can't jump out of a post and hurt you. The harassment was always 100% safe.
 
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DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,892
490
126
Man the Hyperbole in this thread is more than laughable.

An online game is not real life, although many may believe it to be, you fully maintain your privacy in game and there is no expectation of character safety.

People must be losing touch with reality if they feel that Facebook is more comparable to real life than a video game. FB is as much a video game as much as World of Warcraft is. The day they make it so people can't disconnect from Facebook or can receive a punch through fiber optic cables, then we can treat it like real life harassment and assault.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,593
11,274
136
Out of curiosity guys, do you think that something said about you on the Internet cannot possibly affect you in real life, whether or not you spend any time on the Internet whatsoever?
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
Out of curiosity guys, do you think that something said about you on the Internet cannot possibly affect you in real life, whether or not you spend any time on the Internet whatsoever?

Sure, lies can ruin your reputation, could get you fired or make it hard to get a job, or revealing a criminal act could lead to investigation and/or criminal charges.

But that isn't what happened here. The insults and jokes, while offensive, were obviously lies, wouldn't mislead anyway, and they were only posted because of the reactions they were getting. If the lady in question didn't respond, the troll would have just been talking to himself or would have quit out of boredom.
 
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