Tropes vs. Women Author Driven From Home

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Blue_Max

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2011
4,227
153
106
I've responded and attempted to discuss anything that I've seen that falls into this category. IIRC, when I've responded on those points, those posts are ignored yet people keep making the same claims. It renders discussion pointless.

Everyone keeps making the same claim because it's accurate and you, DosBox'sOtherAccount, keep arguing the feminist viewpoint that it doesn't matter how many times she lies to make her point, men and games are still evil misogyny machines of the patriarchyyyyyy!!!

I could go into the sheer number of claims about her made on this thread ("male bashing", "gamer bashing", "feminist rants" to name but a few), but what's the point. I ask people to back up their claims on these points, but they don't.

Yeah, they (and I) did. You just dismissed it all. "An opposing view? Bah! Unaccepted because it's not my opinion. Now prove your point some OTHER way..." [rinse and repeat]
 

jruchko

Member
May 5, 2010
184
0
76
Sorry I couldn't respond sooner, but here is the link for when she talks about Angel in Borderlands 2.

She uses Angels death as an example of damsel in distress and mercy killing. If you played Borderlands 2 you would know that those tropes really don't apply to Angel. You could only come to that conclusion if you didn't play the game, and only watched some clips.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
You seem to spend a lot of time watching videos on someone you can't stand. Personally it's a coin toss for me one which is more boring her videos or the ones debunking her.

She makes it her business to attack my hobby, she becomes my business.


A Gamer Debates a Social Justice Warrior: Jordan Owen and Evan Tognotti
jordanowen42
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_n2ctR-JN8




Unpacking Post-Modernism: Jordan Owen's Debate with Evan Tognotti
Davis M.J. Aurini
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA15SJhjRZk
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
I watched that video already (the one you just URL'd), in an attempt to find what I was originally looking for. I don't know about you, but before criticising what someone has apparently said, I prefer to find out what they actually said first rather than take it from a potentially biased third party (wrt "listen and believe" and sexual abuse).

Translation: the video didn't agree with my own inherent biases.

mikeymikec said:
Anita Sarkeesian has posted many videos that reference many games. Let's say hypothetically she made one mistake (possibly through personal bias). Is this enough for you to dismiss all of her opinions and research? Have you ever made a mistake in your work? Should that be enough for others to dismiss all of your work due to that single mistake? Are you demanding that AS be utterly flawless before you'll seriously consider what she has to say?

Why not? You demand people who go against your bias to be 100.0% accurate in every detail otherwise you dismiss them altogether.

mikeymikec said:
yet when it comes to me asking them to actually provide evidence (aside from the fact that they don't supply it in the first place), they go quiet.
Because some of us have more important things to do in life than to take care of your needs.

I don't keep up with this thread because quite frankly I don't place any value or weight on her. I have watched two of her videos in full. It's quite obvious she is cherry picking her evidence to create a victim-filled narrative that just doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
In her Kickstarter vid, she didn't make that claim. What she did say was that her videos *have* been used in schools etc. So please provide evidence of what you claim she's said.


Please provide examples of this. I've watched a few of hers and I don't think she does what you claim (though I have occasionally noticed where her logic "reaches" a bit IMO).

Please note your use of the word "can". Also, reviewing say 10,000 games would also require access to all the platforms ever designed for all of the games. While most of the platforms will still be in existence somewhere, I don't think it's safe to assume that they all are, let alone in working order. There have been some pretty obscure/unsuccessful platforms in the history of gaming. Furthermore, each game would need to be played from beginning to completion.

One other thing, her kickstarter asked for $6k, not $160k. While it is fair in some respects to point out the $160k figure, the scope of her project was obviously with $6k in mind, and she should do what she was paid the agreed figure to do. She may expand her research after completing the project that she received the kickstarter funds for and fund her expanded research/projects with that money, we don't know.

I wouldn't be surprised that if a research organisation took on the job of reviewing every video game ever made with Sarkeesian's idea in mind, they would want a budget of at least 10 times what Sarkeesian ended up getting. IMO that would be a conservative figure; they would need a team of suitably qualified people and pay them to play video games through to completion (completion being important to study the progression/conclusion of the story line). While some of the work could be short-cutted, as there are cut scene vids of many games available online, I don't think anywhere the full number of games ever designed are available in this manner.

I'm assuming we're talking about dangerousanalysis's video here. I disagree, he made claims to the contrary of what she was claiming (he claimed that the rest of the games she didn't review are not problematic in the context of sexism), and furthermore he claimed that she lacked the research for her claims, then does exactly the same thing himself.

If he didn't make the claim that the rest of the games she didn't review are OK, then I wouldn't ask him to do the research that he claims she should have done. I'd disagree with his opinion though for the reasons I have stated in this post.

I'll probably take a look at the 'investigativejournalism' vids you posted.


In her kick starter video she claimed that she was going to do extensive research, as far as we've seen this amounted to her flipping through wikipedia and stealing some lets play footage from others. She is always evasive, she isn't going to say its academic level, but she implies it by saying her materials are fit for education.


Anita Sarkeesian Part 1: The College Graduate
Instig8iveJournalism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI
Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpFk5F-S_hI

But yes look at the instig8iveJournalism videos, it looks into her previous work and its just terrible. Even long before this kickstarter she was doing this stuff, its a look at her college thesis, and its a joke, and the same broken reasoning seen there is seem in her feminist frequency videos.

As for claiming that her critics haven't watched her videos, you do realize that many of the videos like jordanowen42's are actually longer than than what he's critiquing since he includes her video within his own, and since it takes 20 minutes to explain just how convoluted some of her arguments are. This has been going for almost 2 years now so many people who have followed it from the start have gone through many hours of material, since the time between her releases is months you have a lot to catch up on. So you can't just watch a single video without watching the rebuttals to see what's wrong or deceptive, people have picked apart her work for a long time now, and its not only the quality of evidence against her but the preponderance of evidence against her. Its clear this isn't just one mistake here or there, this woman relies on dishonesty.

Its not up to Dangerous Analysis to prove the other games are not problematic, he just proved she didn't actually legitimate evidence to make the claims she did. She didn't do the work to tally up which games from the total have damsels in them. She didn't even do a minor analysis based on just a subset, perhaps just consoles from X years. All Dangerous Analysis has to do is prove she hasn't done enough to make the claims she is making.
And lets not hold her to such low standards. She's a grown woman who claims to have a degree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Atari_2600_games
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nintendo_Entertainment_System_games
etc
Sure there are quite a few, but that's what she was paid to do, a few hours or even days and she would have worked through that pile. Even if it wasn't all inclusive of every video game everywhere it would be a good enough sample to actually base her claim on something.


Anyways seems like someone made the opposite case 2 years before her kickstarter.

Misandry - Men are Disposable
Man Woman Myth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10atNgm_Cy8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_ycphyls-w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4adcVCT1maw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOIhFgTO-Cw
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,061
10,242
136
Translation: the video didn't agree with my own inherent biases.

Why not? You demand people who go against your bias to be 100.0% accurate in every detail otherwise you dismiss them altogether.

Because some of us have more important things to do in life than to take care of your needs.
The only people whose viewpoints I've "dismissed altogether" are ones who dropped by purely to call me things like a "feminazi", otherwise I've responded to pretty much all of the other responses directed at me in an attempt to stimulate an interesting discussion on the topic. TBH, you're not doing much better as you've decided to only attack me and claim you have better things to be doing than back up the claims you've made.

If someone makes a claim (especially an easily verifiable one like "she bashes men/gamers"), I expect them to back it up. Otherwise the thread is virtually filled with drive-by Anita bashing. If that's your idea of an interesting discussion, good for you, but I'm really not interested in that.

The same goes for Blue_Max, I spent a lot of time yesterday responding to the video he posted which he said summed up his opinion on the matter, then he apparently ignored everything I said in response to it and reverted back to saying "I'm ignoring evidence". Even at the bottom of the last post of mine that he responded to, there's this bit:

In case Blue_Max misses it, I responded to his video here:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=36738837&postcount=446

Yet somehow he still managed to miss it!
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,061
10,242
136
In her kick starter video she claimed that she was going to do extensive research, as far as we've seen this amounted to her flipping through wikipedia and stealing some lets play footage from others. She is always evasive, she isn't going to say its academic level, but she implies it by saying her materials are fit for education.

Well, she actually says that her work is used in schools rather than what it's fit for, but if you think she's making an implication, that's your opinion unless you have something else to back it up with.

Please also note that you've climbed down from "she did actually make that claim" to "she implied it".

As for claiming that her critics haven't watched her videos,
Actually, I've claimed that people on this thread typically haven't watched her videos. The authors of the critical videos I've seen obviously have watched her videos (at least some of them anyway), because they actually provide evidence regarding the points they're making, unlike most of the people in this thread.

Its not up to Dangerous Analysis to prove the other games are not problematic, he just proved she didn't actually legitimate evidence to make the claims she did.
I was wrong about a previous point I made, he didn't make a counter claim that the rest of the games were fine.

I presented (IMO) some pretty decent arguments in response to this claim previously, but you don't seem to have responded to those points.

I think there is some validity to what you're saying regarding the scope of her research, following on after the next quote...

She didn't even do a minor analysis based on just a subset, perhaps just consoles from X years.
This is touching on an interesting point IMO which I've expanded upon here:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2397551&page=18
(search that for "3D" then "16.7" to find the two paragraphs where I made my point)

I might get around to watching the 'college graduate' videos you posted, but my enthusiasm for contributing to this thread has been pretty much used up, amid the insults and baseless claims, then when I respond to a lengthy critic video (I spent about 4 hours on the one Blue_Max posted and responded at great length on it), and I've responded to three such videos, my responses to them are mostly ignored. Kudos for you for apparently not doing that btw. In hindsight I wonder whether I should responded only to your posts because of all the people here critical of AS, you've by far provided the most material to look at.
 
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Blue_Max

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2011
4,227
153
106
The only people whose viewpoints I've "dismissed altogether" are ones who dropped by purely to call me things like a "feminazi", otherwise I've responded to pretty much all of the other responses directed at me in an attempt to stimulate an interesting discussion on the topic. TBH, you're not doing much better as you've decided to only attack me and claim you have better things to be doing than back up the claims you've made.

If someone makes a claim (especially an easily verifiable one like "she bashes men/gamers"), I expect them to back it up. Otherwise the thread is virtually filled with drive-by Anita bashing. If that's your idea of an interesting discussion, good for you, but I'm really not interested in that.

The same goes for Blue_Max, I spent a lot of time yesterday responding to the video he posted which he said summed up his opinion on the matter, then he apparently ignored everything I said in response to it and reverted back to saying "I'm ignoring evidence". Even at the bottom of the last post of mine that he responded to, there's this bit:



Yet somehow he still managed to miss it!

Boy are you ever the nasty one! Seems disagreeing with you sure hits a soft spot like all good feminists! Way to keep up the stereotype! :thumbsup:

You spent HOURS on that rant doing nothing more than make a commentary of the video. You made no point except, eventually, just disagree with him because you've still chosen to blindly follow Sark, lies and all. Again, that's what feminism is all about - follow the ideology regardless of the facts. Lies are OK if it gets the job done.

I'm personally surprised that Blue_Max quoted this video because it backs up absolutely none of his opinions of AS. Furthermore, his view appears to be that she has absolutely nothing valid or of value to say, the author of this video does not appear to share that opinion.

He debunks her garbage with more facts than she used, which is none. He didn't lie to make his point. He was honest when she actually had a partially valid point instead of being dishonest throughout.

Frankly, you didn't deserve a response since you don't really have a point other than staunchly defending heroines of feminism using the feminist methodology of denying truth and choosing preferable misinformation.

Anita's been a liar since the very beginning so it's VERY hard to take this most recent claim seriously. So she's received some hate mail like every other political youtuber on the planet. Boo-freakin-hoo. None of the others have made a big media splash about how they're soooOOoooo afraid, they have to "flee their home"... and then promptly tell the world where she's gone, and how this should be used to further her agenda, "prove" her hypothesis, and how she should receive MORE support money.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91



Sargon of Akkad The Feminist Ideological Conquest of DiGRA (Part 1) #GamerGate #NotYourShield (480p)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28D6_8KuIpc

Sargon of Akkad DiGRA livesteam and Baitfest with Jenni Goodchild #GamerGate #NotYourShield (480p)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNAwHrTowO0


Lazy Thursday Stream
Internet Aristocrat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS8bjnMlR5A

GamerGate Part 1_ The Path We've Taken
InternetAristocrat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dbi-8rPShE


Yes the anti left left is at work in this. They've dug into academic organizations and voted out anyone disagreeing with them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair
Social science has long been corrupted.

Its a damned shame these people haven't had their feet held to the fire like Suey Park did, because they would look and behave no different. They can't actually defend their behavior but since they have so much control, they don't have to.

Anyways I guess those two sites get whitelisted on ad block.
 
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Jodell88

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2007
9,491
42
91
Man both sides of this are completely bonkers lol.
Yup, both sides aren't better than the other.

One side accuses the other of lacking journalistic integrity and they respond by a coordinated effort of declaring gamers dead. Which, in my mind, makes the accusation true.

The harassment of Zoe Quinn and Anita whateverhernameis is just a product of what happens when people don't like you on the internet. Every person with some fame unfortunately has to accept that fact. I do wish that it was different.
 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
81
The harassment of Zoe Quinn and Anita whateverhernameis is just a product of what happens when people don't like you on the internet. Every person with some fame unfortunately has to accept that fact. I do wish that it was different.

What doesn't help however is the fact that behind the scenes there's evidence that Quinn is working to take down anything critical of her, and that it looks like some of the accusations of attacks may just be fictional and looking for attention...that also just justifies a certain amount of paranoia...

...it's sad to watch gaming become so political though.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Intel drops advertising for Gamasutra due to complaints from gamers over feminist agenda:

http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/2/6...-feminist-campaign-by-pulling-ads-from-gaming

complaints from self-identified gamers upset that the site was championing fair gender representation in video games



That's not what people are against.

The more I read of that article, the worse it gets. It's just more shit journalism, littered with the authors own biases.
 
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Jodell88

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2007
9,491
42
91
What doesn't help however is the fact that behind the scenes there's evidence that Quinn is working to take down anything critical of her, and that it looks like some of the accusations of attacks may just be fictional and looking for attention...that also just justifies a certain amount of paranoia...

...it's sad to watch gaming become so political though.
This isn't representative of the entire industry though. So in the end gaming will be just fine.

However, unless something extremely major happens, this entire fiasco will a war of attrition that in the end will have no winners or losers.


On the other hand, it has brought up the bias some members of the gaming press have against a certain section of gamers.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76


That's not what people are against.

The more I read of that article, the worse it gets. It's just more shit journalism, littered with the authors own biases.

Yeah after I read the whole article it smacks of being written by SJW-sympathizers. But interesting story nonetheless.
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
9,108
1,260
126
Intel drops advertising for Gamasutra due to complaints from gamers over feminist agenda:

http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/2/6...-feminist-campaign-by-pulling-ads-from-gaming

This is so awesome. Should be a wake-up call to the lunatics who think there is some sort of oppression in video games. Should also bring home to them the asinine belief that their whining immature rants will actually force games to change to fit their agenda is never going to happen.

The market sees the majority stake where the profit is to be made and what looks better for them PR wise, and it's not supporting some shrill ranting windbags crying about a virtual female characters who have nice backsides.
 

Blue_Max

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2011
4,227
153
106
Intel drops advertising for Gamasutra due to complaints from gamers over feminist agenda:

http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/2/6...-feminist-campaign-by-pulling-ads-from-gaming

From the very beginning,
"Intel has pulled an advertising campaign from video gaming website Gamasutra after it reportedly received a number of complaints from self-identified gamers upset that the site was championing fair gender representation in video games."

Fair, my arse.

To feminism, "fair" means complete superiority. Men are bad, women are good, etc. Attractive, but not TOO attractive. Men cannot be better in any way.... and on and on and on...

Hence the objection. Pity the ranting feminists on that, or any other, board will never see it that way.
 
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