Tropes vs. Women Author Driven From Home

[Cerb]

I don't agree with your premise. You're saying they just threw money at her that she could spend as she pleases (like those $1000 shoes on her blog?)

The funding campaigns have clear minimum needs, and sometimes breakpoints beyond that. After each person added to the fund, any future potential donor/investor would see the new total beforehand. Given how far above the requested amount it went, I can't see any reasonable belief that the extra money would be going to the project.

I, and many others, feel that money was meant for the purpose of creating her hate-spewing videos, not "lifestyle support".

But, those first few thousand dollars requested would have been plenty to pay for the time and effort needed to make said hate-spewing videos. Even after milking it with added support levels, she ended up with 6 times the maximum. Around $20k for the number of videos, given their intended content, and research needs, is pretty reasonable, honestly (a bit high given what got produced, IMO, but that's a 20/20 hindsight judgment).

I'm saying I can't see how anyone would think she would have needed more and more and more money for the videos. I can easily see people that believe in her message wanting to show their support by giving her money, when given the chance to directly do so, however.

Now, semantics aside... still think she's being "abuuused" over getting the same backlash EVERYONE ELSE GETS for being political on the interwebs?

The Amazing Athiest gets the same kind of hate mail every day... should he run fleeing from his home, crying to the media about the bad, bad people coming to get him?

For a woman whose career is based on "battling sexism", she sure enjoys it when it benefits her. :hmm:

Clearly, this Amazing Atheist character could learn a thing or two from A.S., and is wasting opportunities left and right.

 

[jruchko]

He has a penis so he can't play the my-soggy-knee card like she can.

 

[Blue_Max]

Clearly, this Amazing Atheist character could learn a thing or two from A.S., and is wasting opportunities left and right.

This is the guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25o0EZiogw0

 

[thedosbox]

Hey thedosbox, clearly that image showing TWENTY SEVEN sexist pigs means there's a horrible cultural problem affecting MILLIONS of people.

You do understand the concept of a sample right? If you want to see all the others, feel free to check her timeline yourself.

And contrary to the claim of "hate-spewing videos" she's only talking about aspects of how women are portrayed in games - not that all games are misogynist.

She even notes at the beginning of her videos

As always, please keep in mind that it’s entirely possible to be critical of some aspects of a piece of media while still finding other parts valuable or enjoyable.

Or to provide a gaming example, plenty of people hated the ending to Mass Effect 3, but enjoyed the rest of the game.

Yet people send death threats and child porn because of this? Really?

 

[master_shake_]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI

from all the way back in 2012 includes her "thesis" from university in 2010

 

[GoodRevrnd]

You do understand the concept of a sample right? If you want to see all the others, feel free to check her timeline yourself.

I don't think you understand that most people are annoyed because they are getting lumped in with the noisy trolls getting the attention for being a bunch of shit-bags. 99% of gamers aren't lobbing death threats and doxxing these people, yet the SJWs, white-knights, and media act as if it is representative of a very broad and massive sub-culture as a whole.

 

[MongGrel]

Hey thedosbox, clearly that image showing TWENTY SEVEN sexist pigs means there's a horrible cultural problem affecting MILLIONS of people.

I've put together an image of my own to illustrate the magnitude of the problem. I've colored this picture red to indicate the number of abusive, sexist jerks that are attacking women.

Kudos, I found that pretty creative myself.

 

[thedosbox]

I don't think you understand that most people are annoyed because they are getting lumped in with the noisy trolls getting the attention for being a bunch of shit-bags. 99% of gamers aren't lobbing death threats and doxxing these people, yet the SJWs, white-knights, and media act as if it is representative of a very broad and massive sub-culture as a whole.

Why would "gamers" be upset if they don't participate in the same behaviour as the toxic minority? I don't consider myself lumped in with the "shit bags" (good description BTW). Only a fool would. Instead, I recognize that "gamers" consist of many different groups, not all of whom are going to like the same things.

Certainly mainstream media might draw on the old stereotype to refer to these idiots, but anyone who thinks they have much credibility doesn't really care about the truth anyway.

[edit] I put "gamers" in quotes because of this: http://www.bit-tech.net/blog/gaming/2014/09/05/who-does-being-a-gamer-benefit/

The publishers, the marketers, the manufacturers. These are the real gatekeepers, guarding all the doors and holding all the keys. This isn't some grand conspiracy either, I should clarify. It's just the way things are. They build the hardware and make the software, and they can allow and deny access to it at will. Journalists can and will reveal when a publisher acts unscrupulously or unethically, and gamers can rant and rave as much as they like, but neither group can force the hands of the businessmen.

It's also these people who truly benefit from the idea of the gamer. A few of them, anyway, those with the largest marketing budgets and the narrowest view of what a gamer is. Those who market their products with slogans like "by gamers, for gamers" as if they're Gamebraham Lincoln

TLDR; the people who want "gamer" to have a narrow meaning are those who want sell you stuff. They are only interested in gaming "culture" as a marketing plan.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

Why would a skater be upset if people think he's a punk-ass vandal, why would a black kid dressing street be upset he is stopped and frisked everywhere, why would a southerner with a thick accent be upset if people assume he's an ignorant redneck? They don't actually participate in the same behavior as the toxic minorities of their respective groups, so why would they be mad?

Also, while I think there probably are a few less creative marketers/publishers/etc. which are more comfortable keeping their target demographic is stable and easily recognizable, the reality is they all have far more to gain by broadening the scope of what a "gamer" is, or potentially eliminating the concept of a "gamer" completely--particularly in that certain stigmas may be a barrier to attracting new customers to the medium. It's just kind of absurd that in the last decade there has really been a lot of organic, steady momentum bringing gaming mainstream and shedding the "fat virgin in mom's basement" image and suddenly there is this bizarre coordinated click-bait effort to pile that image back on.

 

[thedosbox]

Why would a skater be upset if people think he's a punk-ass vandal, why would a black kid dressing street be upset he is stopped and frisked everywhere, why would a southerner with a thick accent be upset if people assume he's an ignorant redneck? They don't actually participate in the same behavior as the toxic minorities of their respective groups, so why would they be mad?

Yes, stereotypes are bad. And your point is? That people who accept other peoples sterotyping of them are foolish? I can agree with that. But issuing death threats and sending child porn is not the way to respond.

Also, while I think there probably are a few less creative marketers/publishers/etc. which are more comfortable keeping their target demographic is stable and easily recognizable, the reality is they all have far more to gain by broadening the scope of what a "gamer" is, or potentially eliminating the concept of a "gamer" completely--particularly in that certain stigmas may be a barrier to attracting new customers to the medium.

The more varied a demographic, the more difficult it is to market to. Hence, most marketers prefer to rely on the same old sterotypes - e.g. "mother = smart, father = dumb".

suddenly there is this bizarre coordinated click-bait effort to pile that image back on.

That's not the impression I've had. Instead, they have made a point of saying that the old stereotype is played out, and recognize that there is a bigger audience out there. And dumping the term "gamer" with its negative connotations is one way to recognize that.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

*Christ, 99% of gamers do not believe sending death threats and cp is an acceptable response to anything. I'm not sure how clearly people in this thread can spell it out for you. People are annoyed that they are being addressed as a single, whole group responsible for promulgating this behavior.

*Knowing your customer is critically important, but a large, GROWING customer base is far more valuable, particularly in a world of publicly traded, large publishers. How long do you really think the current demographic will keep putting up with Assassin's Creed 37 before the whole industry implodes again?

*That's only half true. They are recognizing there is a bigger audience out there, but they are doing it by decrying the entirety of the current demographic as abhorrent children.

 

[QuantumPion]

And contrary to the claim of "hate-spewing videos" she's only talking about aspects of how women are portrayed in games - not that all games are misogynist.

I'm not sure what video you watched but in the one I watched, Sarkeesian explicitly states that misogynist games MAKE you misogynist, that gamers become misogynist by playing them. She was not criticizing some select few games for being misogynist. She was showing how all gamers are misogynist because of the games they play.

 

[thedosbox]

I'm not sure what video you watched but in the one I watched, Sarkeesian explicitly states that misogynist games MAKE you misogynist, that gamers become misogynist by playing them. She was not criticizing some select few games for being misogynist. She was showing how all gamers are misogynist because of the games they play.

I linked the specific video and quoted a piece from the transcript. I'll do it again:

As always, please keep in mind that it’s entirely possible to be critical of some aspects of a piece of media while still finding other parts valuable or enjoyable.

I may not agree with all her points or conclusions (as I'm not familiar with the studies she cites), but she's certainly not "spewing hate".

*Christ, 99% of gamers do not believe sending death threats and cp is an acceptable response to anything. I'm not sure how clearly people in this thread can spell it out for you. People are annoyed that they are being addressed as a single, whole group responsible for promulgating this behavior.

It's ridiculous to assume that when someone refers to "gamers" they're referring to everyone who plays games. I certainly don't lump myself in with the idiot minority.

*Knowing your customer is critically important, but a large, GROWING customer base is far more valuable, particularly in a world of publicly traded, large publishers. How long do you really think the current demographic will keep putting up with Assassin's Creed 37 before the whole industry implodes again?

Not sure what you mean by "current demographic" as sales have been falling. Yet despite this, nothing has changed from the publishers perspective. Unity is following the same playbook as the other games in the series, with retailer specific pre-order bonuses etc...

*That's only half true. They are recognizing there is a bigger audience out there, but they are doing it by decrying the entirety of the current demographic as abhorrent children.

As I said, that's a question of interpretation.

 

[QuantumPion]

Maybe hate-spewing is the wrong descriptor. She is not spewing obscenities after all. Can we agree on "disdain-filled contemptuous irrational bigotry"?

 

[Midwayman]

I don't know how anyone gives two shits about this girl. She's an obvious troll that like over blowing everything for media attention. The right thing to do is just ignore her.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

It's ridiculous to assume that when someone refers to "gamers" they're referring to everyone who plays games. I certainly don't lump myself in with the idiot minority.

I think it's generally understood that "gamer" broadly refers to the enthusiast segment, which is still massive--NOT just a bunch of trolls who play games.

Not sure what you mean by "current demographic" as sales have been falling. Yet despite this, nothing has changed from the publishers perspective. Unity is following the same playbook as the other games in the series, with retailer specific pre-order bonuses etc...

You're the one that used that previous article to define "gamer" from the view of of "those with the largest marketing budgets and narrowest view." And now you turn around and prove my point that "playing gatekeeper" to keep gamer identity fixed isn't a tenable strategy. I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Maybe hate-spewing is the wrong descriptor. She is not spewing obscenities after all. Can we agree on "disdain-filled contemptuous irrational bigotry"?

Don't forget inconsistent and poorly researched.

Ultimately it seems like the core of her central argument is that female characters in gaming lack agency. This is ultimately flawed because in half of her examples it simply isn't true and she just fails to understand the medium she is critiquing and is looking at an individual event surrounding a character and inferring their entire essence from that single event. In the other half of her examples, yes it is true they do lack agency--but not every character can have a wholly fleshed out story. It would be distracting to gameplay and storytelling as well as obscenely resource intensive. It isn't a malady only female characters suffer either, and is fairly consistent across all mediums (film, books, tv, etc.). It also just isn't realistic to have every disposable character fight back either.

 

[smackababy]

Here is an interesting question: if I am attempting to offend someone, and use what is most offensive to them (sexist threat, racial slur, whatever), does that make me racist, sexist, whatever or just an asshole who understands the best tool to use to do the job?

Could it be a lot of these guys aren't really misogynist assholes, and just people who understand calling a women a word that rhymes with 'punt' and wishing rape upon her is the best way evoke a response?

 

[Nebor]

 

[jruchko]

Here is an interesting question: if I am attempting to offend someone, and use what is most offensive to them (sexist threat, racial slur, whatever), does that make me racist, sexist, whatever or just an asshole who understands the best tool to use to do the job?

Could it be a lot of these guys aren't really misogynist assholes, and just people who understand calling a women a word that rhymes with 'punt' and wishing rape upon her is the best way evoke a response?

That is a lot of words to just say "troll".

 

[smackababy]

That is a lot of words to just say "troll".

It has nothing to do with trolling. Let's look at the Kramer incident. Is he a racist because some guy was heckling him and, in order to lash out as easily as possible, he called the guy the n word? Was he trolling or taking the path of least resistance to piss off a guy who had been trolling him?

 

[GoodRevrnd]

Yeah, you are probably right about some segment of those people, but consistently and systematically taking that path of least resistance to offense is integral to the art of trolling.

Also, I would suspect a large portion of the "death threats" are just generic "go kill yourself" and "I hope you die" type stuff.

 

[QuantumPion]

What is funny, and pointed out in one of the many youtube criticism videos, was that the response she is getting is almost identical to the response Jack Thompson received when he claimed video games made people violent killers and wanted them banned. Yet wishing Jack Thompson would fall off a cliff is considered hip and funny while wishing the same on Sarkeesian makes one a misogynist racist evil person. Really the only difference between them is that Jack Thompson is considered a right-winger conservative nut while Sarkeesian is utterly immune from criticism or name calling of any kind simply because she is of the leftist persuasion. I never heard the term social justice warrior before gamergate but the term and its definition fit these people perfectly.

 

[thedosbox]

Maybe hate-spewing is the wrong descriptor. She is not spewing obscenities after all. Can we agree on "disdain-filled contemptuous irrational bigotry"?

No different from many of the comments in this thread then? I may not agree with her, but she's certainly got the right to express her opinion without being harassed out of her home.

TotalBiscuit makes the same point - i.e. having people critique games is a good thing, and harassment is bad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e78JRIHRjC0&list=UUy1Ms_5qBTawC-k7PVjHXKQ

He also makes the point that the critique should be fact based

I think it's generally understood that "gamer" broadly refers to the enthusiast segment, which is still massive--NOT just a bunch of trolls who play games.

Sure, I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of people who play games aren't even aware of the harassment, let alone who she is.

What we don't necessarily agree on is whether the term "gamer" is meaningful any more. To my mind, it's been sullied by the culture wars and misuse in marketing, as well as changing demographics.

In the other half of her examples, yes it is true they do lack agency--but not every character can have a wholly fleshed out story. It would be distracting to gameplay and storytelling as well as obscenely resource intensive. It isn't a malady only female characters suffer either, and is fairly consistent across all mediums (film, books, tv, etc.).

Instead of putting in a canned stripping animation and related dialog, developers could have spent the development effort on something else. I won't defend all of her points (especially as I don't agree with many), but it should be noted that she mentions traditional media falling into the same tropes.

What is funny, and pointed out in one of the many youtube criticism videos, was that the response she is getting is almost identical to the response Jack Thompson received when he claimed video games made people violent killers and wanted them banned. Yet wishing Jack Thompson would fall off a cliff is considered hip and funny while wishing the same on Sarkeesian makes one a misogynist racist evil person.

There's a big difference between a threat that someone is going to kill you, and seeing your home address included with that threat. I already provided a sample of the sexist harassment she received.

 

[Cerb]

What is funny, and pointed out in one of the many youtube criticism videos, was that the response she is getting is almost identical to the response Jack Thompson received when he claimed video games made people violent killers and wanted them banned. Yet wishing Jack Thompson would fall off a cliff is considered hip and funny while wishing the same on Sarkeesian makes one a misogynist racist evil person. Really the only difference between them is that Jack Thompson is considered a right-winger conservative nut while Sarkeesian is utterly immune from criticism or name calling of any kind simply because she is of the leftist persuasion. I never heard the term social justice warrior before gamergate but the term and its definition fit these people perfectly.

Saying, "this is sexist, and can cause impressionable people to become sexist, or re-affirm existing sexism beliefs, even though there is no positive evidence for this," and the way she goes about it, is a lot of things, but is not equivalent to the same statement appended with, "and so should be illegal to create an sell."

 

[jruchko]

It has nothing to do with trolling. Let's look at the Kramer incident. Is he a racist because some guy was heckling him and, in order to lash out as easily as possible, he called the guy the n word? Was he trolling or taking the path of least resistance to piss off a guy who had been trolling him?

That is why I call it trolling. There is nothing that says you cannot troll another troll, that is pretty much most of the internet at this point. Trolling is simply trying to get a rise out of someone.

I am personally not familiar with the Kramer incident, just heard random things about it years ago so I cannot say if it was racist or trolling. Keep in mind though, there is no reason it can't be both.