Trouble in Taiwan

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
You're going to have to forgive the author of this essay. In order to dramatize his paper, he misleads the uninitiated (in the first two paragraphs) by claiming that President Bush contradicted himself. In fact, the American principals that the President spoke off and the One China Policy that has dealt with Taiwan for over 30 years contradict each other. Like every other President before him, Bush simply states that the United States will defend Taiwan should she be attacked by China. Also like every other President, he then states that Taiwan should adhere to the One China Policy, which would bring about the eventual peaceful re-unification of Taiwan and China. Despite their contradictions, the success of the One China Policy and American fundamental Principals working together are in the vagueness and lack of deadlines engineered in the former. Enjoy.

link

Summary: George W. Bush was right to rebuke Taiwan's president over his plans for a referendum on relations with China. Administration critics assume that democracy and independence are inseparable, that the "one China" principle is no longer useful, and that China would never go to war over Taiwan. But they are wrong on all three counts and fail to appreciate the dangers that may lie ahead.

STRAIT TALK

On December 9, 2003, in the presence of visiting Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao, President George W. Bush broke significant new ground in U.S. relations with China and Taiwan. Having pledged in April 2001 to do "whatever it takes" to help Taiwan defend itself, Bush changed tack, reaffirming U.S. support for maintaining the status quo in the Taiwan Strait. Of even greater significance, he rebuked Taiwan's president, Chen Shui-bian, stating that "the comments and actions made by the leader of Taiwan indicate that he may be willing to make decisions unilaterally to change the status quo, which we oppose."

Bush's volte-face was prompted by moves by Chen in the run-up to Taiwan's March 2004 presidential election. Chen is pushing for an unprecedented public referendum that would condemn China's growing missile threat and its refusal to renounce the use of force against Taiwan. He has also proposed a new constitution to replace the version used by the island since the 1940s. The Chinese government believes that Chen's proposals would move Taiwan much closer to permanent separation from the mainland, and so Beijing has threatened coercive measures to prevent such an outcome. This scenario would almost certainly lead to a confrontation with the United States, possibly involving armed conflict.

Although Wen and other senior Chinese officials have expressed appreciation for Bush's words and have moderated their reaction to Chen's proposals, the situation is by no means under control. Chen continues to downplay Bush's efforts to restrain him, claiming that he is advancing the democratic cause and strengthening Taiwan's ability to resist Chinese intimidation. These arguments have received a sympathetic hearing from some conservatives and liberals in the U.S. Congress, who were enraged by Bush's rebuke and argue that Washington has a moral obligation to endorse Chen's call for national plebiscites and a new constitution. Some critics even advocate ignoring China's concerns over Taiwan altogether, abandoning support for the "one China" policy (the view that Taiwan is a part of China), and endorsing Taiwan's right to self-determination, thus compelling Beijing to accept the reality of Taiwanese independence.

But these critics make three faulty assumptions: that Beijing would ultimately permit Taiwanese independence rather than confront the United States; that an expression of democratic self-determination is sufficient to establish territorial sovereignty and that democracy is incompatible with any political arrangement short of formal independence; and that it is immoral, as well as fundamentally contrary to U.S. interests, to oppose any manifestation of democracy in Taiwan. Once these assumptions are debunked, the prudence of maintaining the status quo becomes apparent.

A HIGH-STAKES GAME

China very much wants to avoid conflict over Taiwan. But this does not mean that it would be unprepared to go to war over the island. For China's leaders, the Taiwan issue is inextricably related to national self-respect and regime survival. The island -- ruled as a prefecture by the Manchu Qing Dynasty for more than two hundred years before becoming a Chinese province in 1887 -- was forcibly seized by imperial Japan in 1895 and came under de facto U.S. protection shortly after Japan's defeat in World War II. Beijing regards the eventual reunification of China and Taiwan as essential to China's recovery from a century of national weakness, vulnerability, and humiliation, and to its emergence as a respected great power.

Today, however, China's main objective is not to assert direct territorial rule over Taiwan but to avoid the island's permanent loss. Losing Taiwan against Beijing's will would deal a severe blow to Chinese prestige and self-confidence: Chinese leaders believe that their government would likely collapse in such a scenario. Taiwanese independence would also establish a dangerous precedent for other potentially secession-minded areas of the country, such as Tibet, Xinjiang, and Inner Mongolia. This is the primary reason why the Chinese leadership will not jettison the one-China principle, the recognition of which remains a precondition to any serious political negotiations with Taipei. To discard such a principle would cast serious doubt on the Chinese government's claim that the island and the mainland are parts of a single sovereign authority. China has offered Taiwan a form of political reunification that would grant the island operational autonomy in domestic affairs, but, in return, Taipei would have to acknowledge a single shared sovereignty. China also refuses to renounce its use of force over the island, claiming that the ability to employ force over one's territory is an essential attribute of sovereignty. Removing that threat would also lift what China regards as an essential deterrent to the island's moving even more determinedly toward independence.

China's leaders are under few illusions about the detrimental effects a coercive strategy would have on Beijing's ties with the United States. But China would almost certainly sacrifice good relations with the West (and the economic benefits that accrue from those relations) in order to avoid losing Taiwan. The damage to China's political and social stability in being seen to lose territory, in other words, would be even greater than the diplomatic and economic damage resulting from a conflict with the United States.

The Chinese leadership would thus almost certainly fight to avoid the loss of Taiwan if it concluded that no other alternative existed, even if its chances of prevailing in such a conflict were low. Exactly how much blood and treasure China would be willing to expend over the issue is unclear, but it might be considerably more than the United States would be prepared to shoulder. Indeed, many Chinese believe that, in the final analysis, Taiwan matters far more to China than it does to the United States. It is highly unlikely, therefore, that the Chinese government can be persuaded or coerced to alter its calculus regarding Taiwan, especially not by a U.S. government that appears to be supporting Taiwan's independence. This notion directly contradicts a key assumption held by critics of the status quo.

Moreover, the maintenance of cooperative, if not necessarily amicable, relations with the Chinese government is critical to U.S. regional and global objectives. These objectives include preserving a stable, peaceful, and prosperous Asia; resolving the North Korean nuclear weapons crisis; maintaining peace between India and Pakistan; advancing the United States' ever-burgeoning economic interests in China; strengthening enforcement of international nonproliferation regimes; and prosecuting the war on terrorism.

A war with China over Taiwan would, of course, be far more dangerous than any of the United States' post-Cold War operations. Although not a match for the United States, China is nonetheless a continental power with very large conventional ground, naval, and air forces, as well as a nuclear weapons arsenal capable of reaching any target in the United States and beyond. Taiwan's proximity to China, the difficulty involved in interdicting Chinese attacks without directly striking the Chinese mainland, and the historical inclination of both sides to display resolve in a crisis through decisive -- and sometimes rapid -- military action suggest that escalation might prove extremely difficult to control.

None of this is intended to imply that Taiwan is not worth supporting or defending. In fact, the island is of considerable importance to the United States for at least three reasons. First, Washington's policies toward Taipei directly affect the credibility of U.S. commitments to other potentially destabilizing regional or global issues. Second, U.S. support for Taiwan is closely tied to U.S. interests in nurturing newly established democracies, especially those that are threatened by authoritarian governments. And third, it is always important to demonstrate loyalty to long-time friends.

It is a mistake, however, to think that safeguarding these interests and warding off a confrontation with China are mutually incompatible goals. That would be true only if Beijing were clearly and irrevocably committed to employing force against Taiwan, which is not the case. Rather, China's deployment of military forces along the Taiwan Strait is intended to deter Taiwan and the United States from closing off the option of eventual reunification. The chances of a confrontation between Beijing and Washington, in other words, could be reduced further if China's leaders believed that the option of ultimate reunification remained on the table for the foreseeable future. Any such judgment is directly related to U.S. policy toward Taiwan. Not only can the United States decisively affect Taiwan's behavior, but determined U.S. support for an independent Taiwan could eventually elicit the backing of the majority of the international community. Thus U.S. policymakers must not ignore or downplay Chinese views. In particular, Washington must reassure the Chinese that their worst fear -- independence for Taiwan -- will not be realized without their consent.

CARROTS AND STICKS

At the same time, however, the United States must avoid giving Taiwan the impression that it will permit China to coerce the island into submission. This would undermine the United States' credibility and its support for democracy. Even worse, it might convince Taiwan to seek alternatives to U.S. military support, perhaps even raising the specter of nuclear deterrence. The United States should also attempt to convince China's leaders that they must soften their stance toward Taiwan and make China more attractive to Taiwanese citizens. The best way to do this would be to encourage democratization in China via greater social and economic contact and sustained efforts to promote the rule of law. Any unilateral attempt to compel China to drop essential elements of its long-standing policy -- such as the one-China principle or the use of force -- would simply alarm Beijing and could result in unnecessary conflict.

Military and diplomatic deterrence, balanced by an adequate level of reassurance, is also essential to the maintenance of stability. Under existing conditions, words alone will not convince Beijing that force is irrelevant or too dangerous to employ in an effort to avoid losing the island. The Chinese leadership continues to fear that the United States might eventually support the permanent separation of Taiwan from China. Washington must therefore minimize the risk of China's miscalculating its interests, by keeping the stakes of a first military move by Beijing extremely high. This requires a consistent and energetic reiteration by the United States that it will not tolerate any attempt by Beijing to coerce Taiwan into submission. It also requires the creation and maintenance of a credible military deterrent by both the United States and Taiwan.

Taipei, in particular, must develop a genuine ability to defend itself against possible Chinese attacks, including a rapid decapitation strike timed to occur before any U.S. assistance can arrive on the scene. There is considerable evidence that China is seeking to acquire the ability to launch just such a strike. Unfortunately, Taiwan is unable to credibly deter or deflect a Chinese attack (especially a rapid strike) at present, despite greatly increased levels of U.S. assistance. Indeed, it appears that many Taiwanese political and military leaders incorrectly believe that the island does not need to acquire such capabilities and can rely on the United States entirely.

Ultimately, the extent to which the United States and Taiwan must rely on deterrence is inversely related to the success of Washington's efforts to reassure China that it is committed to the status quo. As President Bush has recognized, such efforts are likely to be more successful if greater levels of trust can be created through the establishment of a stronger, more cooperative, Sino-American relationship. They are likely to be less successful if the relationship is allowed to deteriorate through insufficient attention to each other's interests. Chinese officials will be less bellicose and more patient if they believe Washington is not colluding with Taipei to favor independence. Insufficient reassurance -- even if it is combined with a strong deterrence posture -- could eventually provoke China into a desperate use of force, in the belief that Washington might use its superior military capabilities to protect Taiwan from a Chinese attack as the island moved toward independence. Efforts to strengthen deterrence, in other words, must be carefully coordinated with a larger strategy of reassurance if stability is to be maintained.

DEMOCRATIC MYTHS

Taiwan has been free to prosper and develop a vibrant democracy largely thanks to an understanding reached during the normalization of U.S.-China diplomacy in the 1970s. At that time, China pledged that it would seek a peaceful solution to the Taiwan issue in exchange for a U.S. commitment not to challenge (and, by implication, not to undermine) the one-China position. The Taiwanese government concurred that it understood the island to be part of China. But Taiwan's recent emergence as a democracy has cast doubt on -- if not eliminated altogether -- that commitment. The political influence of the Chinese nationalist minority on the island has waned, in favor of a growing separatist-leaning Taiwanese leadership.

It is imperative that the United States not follow Taiwan's lead in pressing for a unilateral change in the status quo. Given the high risks involved, the original understanding achieved between the United States and China should be adjusted only as a result of negotiations between the two powers, rather than through unilateral actions undertaken by either side or by Taiwan. In other words, Taiwan's democratization and the consequent "Taiwanization" of the island's political system do not automatically justify the unilateral abandonment of the United States' original pledge.

Furthermore, the U.S. government must not assume that Taiwan's citizens are uniformly committed to achieving full and permanent independence from China. Public opinion polls over the past decade have consistently shown that most Taiwanese people oppose any abrupt movement toward either independence or reunification. Moreover, a highly reputable recent study indicates that older Taiwanese citizens (who experienced the sometimes brutal rule of the Chinese nationalists) are more likely to view themselves as purely Taiwanese than their younger counterparts. Many of the latter identify themselves with both Taiwan and China, thus suggesting that Taiwan's population might become less inclined toward formal independence in the future. Overall, a clear majority recognizes the value of remaining pragmatic and open-minded about the future, acknowledging China's stance toward Taiwan, Beijing's growing military capabilities, and the enormous benefits that accrue to Taiwan as a result of deepening economic and social contact with the Chinese mainland. That said, most of Taiwan's citizens do not want to be ruled by the current Chinese regime and would prefer a greater level of international recognition as a nation.

The Taiwanese people's national aspirations -- and their willingness to undertake risks in achieving those aspirations -- are heavily influenced by the cues they receive from their political leaders, as well as the actions, or inaction, of the United States and China. In short, Taiwan's leaders significantly shape, and do not merely reflect, the island's sense of self-identity and its population's moves toward self-determination. For this reason, the United States must carefully evaluate the behavior of Taiwan's leaders and not shirk from shaping it in ways that support U.S. interests.

As part of this process, the United States must dispel the assumption -- held by conservatives in the United States and pro-independence politicians in Taiwan -- that a people's expression of self-determination is tantamount to actual territorial sovereignty. Neither the United States nor the international community has ever validated the notion that the majority views of a given people, whether expressed through democratic processes (such as a referendum) or other means, justify an inherent right to independence. Territories such as Chechnya, Kashmir, Kosovo, and Tibet are not recognized by the international community as independent states, despite the fact that a majority of their inhabitants would likely support independence. Rather, recognition of a people's status as a nation-state is conferred by the international community and is highly subject to the calculations and interests of the most influential powers involved. By this standard, Taiwan is not currently an independent nation, since the vast majority of the international community -- including the United States -- does not accept it as such.

THE GREATEST GOOD

Moral imperatives to intervene in international relations emerge only when another entity, usually a government, inflicts grave harm on innocent people. Genocide, ethnic cleansing, mass rape, and slaughter are examples of morally repugnant activities that warrant such interventions. Other deprivations may also be sufficient for the international community to act: economic enslavement, systemic state-imposed poverty, or denial of political rights and liberties, for example. These types of maltreatment do not typically lead other nations to initiate war, but they may prompt concerted political and economic pressure on the injuring state. Taiwan suffers none of these injuries. Its people are not being killed, ethnically cleansed, or raped by China. And it enjoys economic liberty and growing prosperity under freely elected democratic rule. The main limitation that China imposes on Taiwan is against its establishing de jure independence, as distinct from the de facto independence it currently enjoys. This hardship is regrettable, but no reasonable standard of international morality requires the United States to risk military intervention to redress it. From a moral standpoint, Washington's top priority should be to avoid precipitating war across the Taiwan Strait, a situation that would inflict incomparably greater suffering on the island than would continuing its de facto autonomy.

Critics of the one-China policy are also wrong to suggest that support for democracy in Taiwan obligates the United States to endorse the formation of an independent and sovereign nation-state. On the contrary, democracy will continue to thrive only if unilateral strides toward independence are rejected, because moves to alter the status quo would probably result in a devastating conflict on the island. U.S. strategic, political, and moral interests are thus best served by a policy that seeks not only to deter the use of military force but also to ensure that reunification between Taiwan and China remains an option.

At present, the most immediate threat to such a policy is presented by the actions of President Chen. Upon taking office in 2000, Chen pledged that he would avoid taking unambiguous steps toward independence -- including holding referendums that affect Taiwan's sovereign status -- as long as China did not intend to attack Taiwan. Now, claiming that such an intention exists, Chen wants to hold a national referendum on Taiwan's presidential election day, March 20, ostensibly to gauge the public's views of China's missile deployments and "use of force." To justify this move, Chen has invoked a recently passed law that permits the president to call "defensive" referendums in response to dire threats against Taiwan's national security.

Yet China's buildup of missiles and the country's refusal to renounce the possible use of force to prevent Taiwanese independence are not new threats. They have been a major element of the cross-strait imbroglio for many years and do not constitute clear evidence that Beijing actually intends to attack the island. As indicated above, China's posturing reflects Beijing's deterrence calculus and is an expression of its claim to sovereign authority over Taiwan. There is no doubt that the vast majority of Taiwan's citizens would express concern about Chinese saber-rattling if asked. But this begs the question, If the popular response is so predictable, why hold a referendum at all?

Chen is using the referendum to bolster his standing with Taiwan's voters and, perhaps even more important, may use it to create for himself a handy excuse for disregarding his original pledge not to alter the status quo. If the referendum passes, Chen could claim that the Taiwanese public has confirmed China's intention to attack the island and thereby could justify further moves toward independence. His next step would most likely be to enact an entirely new constitution via a second national plebiscite (as opposed to revising or amending the existing constitution). Such a move would sever any legal or procedural continuity with Taiwan's existing political system. Most important, it would negate the past source of Taiwanese sovereignty, which, according to the existing constitution, resides with the people of "China." Although this provision may seem fictional, it has proved highly useful, indirectly helping to preserve the peace for more than 50 years. Redefining the source of state legitimacy as belonging to the citizens of Taiwan alone would almost certainly persuade a large number of Taiwanese that "one China" no longer exists and that Taiwan is a separate sovereign state. Although such a self-definition would not be tantamount to independence, China would perceive it as precluding the possibility of reunification, which would greatly increase the chances of a conflict between the United States and China over Taiwan.

Washington is thus fully justified in discouraging Chen from holding a referendum, as part of its broader effort to establish the conditions underlying its political and military support to the island. The current leadership must be disabused of the notion that the United States will defend the island under any circumstances. Such a policy would be entirely morally justified, would in no way threaten Taiwan's democracy, and -- most important -- would best protect U.S. interests. On the Chinese side, Washington must seek both to deter China militarily and to assure Beijing that the reunification option remains on the table. To these ends, President Bush's recent policy shift is a step in the right direction.

 

KGB1

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2001
2,998
0
0
Who gives a cr@p about war, just countries raising arms and might for $$, while the people who can care less are drafted off. If America fights over Taiwan with China... WTF is that about?1

The article is really blown out of proportion with both sides losing credibility? CHina will collapse if it loses all stake in taiwan... poppky cock. WTF... like Indonesia, australia, tanzania really gives 2 sh!ts about either China or US losing credibility of their half@ss foreign policy decisions. What a useless article, I must commend you for wasting my time reading this jargon.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: KGB
Who gives a cr@p about war, just countries raising arms and might for $$, while the people who can care less are drafted off. If America fights over Taiwan with China... WTF is that about?1

The article is really blown out of proportion with both sides losing credibility? CHina will collapse if it loses all stake in taiwan... poppky cock. WTF... like Indonesia, australia, tanzania really gives 2 sh!ts about either China or US losing credibility of their half@ss foreign policy decisions. What a useless article, I must commend you for wasting my time reading this jargon.

Your ignorance is almost laughable. I'm glad you hold no position of power, except perhaps in a video game.
 

KGB1

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2001
2,998
0
0
Dude, is this really news? What the hell, even before you and I popped out of our moms @sses this whole decable with china--taiwan--us has been going round and round. This article doesn't shine on anything new, besides the fact that US sold ships to taiwan to fend itself off of china.

A new light has been shined upon this region again, it's because we have a current president who can barely remember any other foreign leader than saddam. I swear he's got only two names burned in his brain.. bin laden and saddam. I'm sure any guarantee of peace and protection with Colin Powell sent at the delegate to smooth over the tension will help greatly
, since bush and powell lost ALL credibility in front of the United Nations.

US has went against its word in NK, will happen the same in Taiwan.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: KGB
Dude, is this really news? What the hell, even before you and I popped out of our moms @sses this whole decable with china--taiwan--us has been going round and round. This article doesn't shine on anything new, besides the fact that US sold ships to taiwan to fend itself off of china.

A new light has been shined upon this region again, it's because we have a current president who can barely remember any other foreign leader than saddam. I swear he's got only two names burned in his brain.. bin laden and saddam. I'm sure any guarantee of peace and protection with Colin Powell sent at the delegate to smooth over the tension will help greatly
, since bush and powell lost ALL credibility in front of the United Nations.

US has went against its word in NK, will happen the same in Taiwan.

Taiwan has an election coming up (March 20). In case you don't know, there's a referendum in that election that calls for China to remove it's missiles pointed at Taiwan and future relations with China.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
hehe, you don't need such long article to state the obvious. It is in the best interest of the United State to adhere to the Chinese definition of one China policy. We all know Chinese has a powerful miltary and China is a gold mine to US busineses.

It's laughable to state things like "Neither the United States nor the international community has ever validated the notion that the majority views of a given people, whether expressed through democratic processes (such as a referendum) or other means, justify an inherent right to independence" or "Moral imperatives to intervene in international relations emerge only when another entity, usually a government, inflicts grave harm on innocent people". We don't really need all those excuses, and we all know those are all secondary to the national interests.

Just say it, Taiwanese people's wish doesn't matter, what matter is United State national interest and it doesn't hurt United State interest when going to war with little country like Iraq (or so did the Bush Admin thought), but it sure does when going to war with a gorilla like China.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: rchiu
hehe, you don't need such long article to state the obvious. It is in the best interest of the United State to adhere to the Chinese definition of one China policy. We all know Chinese has a powerful miltary and China is a gold mine to US busineses.

It's laughable to state things like "Neither the United States nor the international community has ever validated the notion that the majority views of a given people, whether expressed through democratic processes (such as a referendum) or other means, justify an inherent right to independence" or "Moral imperatives to intervene in international relations emerge only when another entity, usually a government, inflicts grave harm on innocent people". We don't really need all those excuses, and we all know those are all secondary to the national interests.

Just say it, Taiwanese people's wish doesn't matter, what matter is United State national interest and it doesn't hurt United State interest when going to war with little country like Iraq (or so did the Bush Admin thought), but it sure does when going to war with a gorilla like China.

You admit whatever you want, I just state the facts. As the article stated and as I've stated many times, the United States will not let Taiwan be invaded by the God-less Chinese and we do nothing. That will never, ever happen. If the Chinese don't understand this, then tens of millions of people will have to die and a new government installed in Beijing for them to get the picture.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: rchiu
hehe, you don't need such long article to state the obvious. It is in the best interest of the United State to adhere to the Chinese definition of one China policy. We all know Chinese has a powerful miltary and China is a gold mine to US busineses.

It's laughable to state things like "Neither the United States nor the international community has ever validated the notion that the majority views of a given people, whether expressed through democratic processes (such as a referendum) or other means, justify an inherent right to independence" or "Moral imperatives to intervene in international relations emerge only when another entity, usually a government, inflicts grave harm on innocent people". We don't really need all those excuses, and we all know those are all secondary to the national interests.

Just say it, Taiwanese people's wish doesn't matter, what matter is United State national interest and it doesn't hurt United State interest when going to war with little country like Iraq (or so did the Bush Admin thought), but it sure does when going to war with a gorilla like China.

You admit whatever you want, I just state the facts. As the article stated and as I've stated many times, the United States will not let Taiwan be invaded by the God-less Chinese and we do nothing. That will never, ever happen. If the Chinese don't understand this, then tens of millions of people will have to die and a new government instilled in Beijing for them to get the picture.

Yeah sure, how do you know that the administration won't say stuff like "majority view of given people doesn't justify an inherent right to independence" or crap like "China hasn't perform genocide", if China invaded Taiwan. As long as fighting China isn't in the "best national interest" in the mind of the US administration, US won't send any troop. And as more US company build plants in China and Chinese strenghten their army, and US army spreading thin with unnecessary war in places like Iraq, it is increasingly more and more in the best national interest not to have conflict with China.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: rchiu
hehe, you don't need such long article to state the obvious. It is in the best interest of the United State to adhere to the Chinese definition of one China policy. We all know Chinese has a powerful miltary and China is a gold mine to US busineses.

It's laughable to state things like "Neither the United States nor the international community has ever validated the notion that the majority views of a given people, whether expressed through democratic processes (such as a referendum) or other means, justify an inherent right to independence" or "Moral imperatives to intervene in international relations emerge only when another entity, usually a government, inflicts grave harm on innocent people". We don't really need all those excuses, and we all know those are all secondary to the national interests.

Just say it, Taiwanese people's wish doesn't matter, what matter is United State national interest and it doesn't hurt United State interest when going to war with little country like Iraq (or so did the Bush Admin thought), but it sure does when going to war with a gorilla like China.

You admit whatever you want, I just state the facts. As the article stated and as I've stated many times, the United States will not let Taiwan be invaded by the God-less Chinese and we do nothing. That will never, ever happen. If the Chinese don't understand this, then tens of millions of people will have to die and a new government instilled in Beijing for them to get the picture.

Yeah sure, how do you know that the administration won't say stuff like "majority view of given people doesn't justify an inherent right to independence" or crap like "China hasn't perform genocide", if China invaded Taiwan. As long as fighting China isn't in the "best national interest" in the mind of the US administration, US won't send any troop. And as more US company build plants in China and Chinese strenghten their army, and US army spreading thin with unnecessary war in places like Iraq, it is increasingly more and more in the best national interest not to have conflict with China.

I'm not going to continue discussing hypothetical situations any further. Why don't you do yourself a favor and use history as precedent?

 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: rchiu
hehe, you don't need such long article to state the obvious. It is in the best interest of the United State to adhere to the Chinese definition of one China policy. We all know Chinese has a powerful miltary and China is a gold mine to US busineses.

It's laughable to state things like "Neither the United States nor the international community has ever validated the notion that the majority views of a given people, whether expressed through democratic processes (such as a referendum) or other means, justify an inherent right to independence" or "Moral imperatives to intervene in international relations emerge only when another entity, usually a government, inflicts grave harm on innocent people". We don't really need all those excuses, and we all know those are all secondary to the national interests.

Just say it, Taiwanese people's wish doesn't matter, what matter is United State national interest and it doesn't hurt United State interest when going to war with little country like Iraq (or so did the Bush Admin thought), but it sure does when going to war with a gorilla like China.

You admit whatever you want, I just state the facts. As the article stated and as I've stated many times, the United States will not let Taiwan be invaded by the God-less Chinese and we do nothing. That will never, ever happen. If the Chinese don't understand this, then tens of millions of people will have to die and a new government instilled in Beijing for them to get the picture.

Yeah sure, how do you know that the administration won't say stuff like "majority view of given people doesn't justify an inherent right to independence" or crap like "China hasn't perform genocide", if China invaded Taiwan. As long as fighting China isn't in the "best national interest" in the mind of the US administration, US won't send any troop. And as more US company build plants in China and Chinese strenghten their army, and US army spreading thin with unnecessary war in places like Iraq, it is increasingly more and more in the best national interest not to have conflict with China.

I'm not going to continue discussing hypothetical situations any further. Why don't you do yourself a favor and use history as precedent?

What, like how American didn't get involved in Chechnya and Tibet?
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: rchiu
hehe, you don't need such long article to state the obvious. It is in the best interest of the United State to adhere to the Chinese definition of one China policy. We all know Chinese has a powerful miltary and China is a gold mine to US busineses.

It's laughable to state things like "Neither the United States nor the international community has ever validated the notion that the majority views of a given people, whether expressed through democratic processes (such as a referendum) or other means, justify an inherent right to independence" or "Moral imperatives to intervene in international relations emerge only when another entity, usually a government, inflicts grave harm on innocent people". We don't really need all those excuses, and we all know those are all secondary to the national interests.

Just say it, Taiwanese people's wish doesn't matter, what matter is United State national interest and it doesn't hurt United State interest when going to war with little country like Iraq (or so did the Bush Admin thought), but it sure does when going to war with a gorilla like China.

You admit whatever you want, I just state the facts. As the article stated and as I've stated many times, the United States will not let Taiwan be invaded by the God-less Chinese and we do nothing. That will never, ever happen. If the Chinese don't understand this, then tens of millions of people will have to die and a new government instilled in Beijing for them to get the picture.

Yeah sure, how do you know that the administration won't say stuff like "majority view of given people doesn't justify an inherent right to independence" or crap like "China hasn't perform genocide", if China invaded Taiwan. As long as fighting China isn't in the "best national interest" in the mind of the US administration, US won't send any troop. And as more US company build plants in China and Chinese strenghten their army, and US army spreading thin with unnecessary war in places like Iraq, it is increasingly more and more in the best national interest not to have conflict with China.

I'm not going to continue discussing hypothetical situations any further. Why don't you do yourself a favor and use history as precedent?

What, like how American didn't get involved in Chechnya and Tibet?

We've never been intimate with either Chechnya or Tibet.

 

rufruf44

Platinum Member
May 8, 2001
2,002
0
0
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: rchiu
hehe, you don't need such long article to state the obvious. It is in the best interest of the United State to adhere to the Chinese definition of one China policy. We all know Chinese has a powerful miltary and China is a gold mine to US busineses.

It's laughable to state things like "Neither the United States nor the international community has ever validated the notion that the majority views of a given people, whether expressed through democratic processes (such as a referendum) or other means, justify an inherent right to independence" or "Moral imperatives to intervene in international relations emerge only when another entity, usually a government, inflicts grave harm on innocent people". We don't really need all those excuses, and we all know those are all secondary to the national interests.

Just say it, Taiwanese people's wish doesn't matter, what matter is United State national interest and it doesn't hurt United State interest when going to war with little country like Iraq (or so did the Bush Admin thought), but it sure does when going to war with a gorilla like China.

You admit whatever you want, I just state the facts. As the article stated and as I've stated many times, the United States will not let Taiwan be invaded by the God-less Chinese and we do nothing. That will never, ever happen. If the Chinese don't understand this, then tens of millions of people will have to die and a new government installed in Beijing for them to get the picture.

Heh, American won't let thousands of their own dies in a war against a powerful country such as China. Last time they fought the Red Army, its end in a stalemate (Korean war). Just look at the war in Iraq and the strong sentiment against it. Replace it with the fact this is a country with nuclear arsenal in its fingetip, and the fact there's nothing to gain in Taiwan (its a small island with no strategic significance), you got the point. Big business also won't risk losing their factories and huge "undeveloped" market in China.

Then again, China won't invade Taiwan. There's no benefit (asides of bragging right) to do so. Already Taiwanese business began their exodus to China for cheaper labor and materials, whats there left in Taiwan that worth the prices of war?
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: rufruf44
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: rchiu
hehe, you don't need such long article to state the obvious. It is in the best interest of the United State to adhere to the Chinese definition of one China policy. We all know Chinese has a powerful miltary and China is a gold mine to US busineses.

It's laughable to state things like "Neither the United States nor the international community has ever validated the notion that the majority views of a given people, whether expressed through democratic processes (such as a referendum) or other means, justify an inherent right to independence" or "Moral imperatives to intervene in international relations emerge only when another entity, usually a government, inflicts grave harm on innocent people". We don't really need all those excuses, and we all know those are all secondary to the national interests.

Just say it, Taiwanese people's wish doesn't matter, what matter is United State national interest and it doesn't hurt United State interest when going to war with little country like Iraq (or so did the Bush Admin thought), but it sure does when going to war with a gorilla like China.

You admit whatever you want, I just state the facts. As the article stated and as I've stated many times, the United States will not let Taiwan be invaded by the God-less Chinese and we do nothing. That will never, ever happen. If the Chinese don't understand this, then tens of millions of people will have to die and a new government installed in Beijing for them to get the picture.

Heh, American won't let thousands of their own dies in a war against a powerful country such as China. Last time they fought the Red Army, its end in a stalemate (Korean war). Just look at the war in Iraq and the strong sentiment against it. Replace it with the fact this is a country with nuclear arsenal in its fingetip, and the fact there's nothing to gain in Taiwan (its a small island with no strategic significance), you got the point. Big business also won't risk losing their factories and huge "undeveloped" market in China.

Then again, China won't invade Taiwan. There's no benefit (asides of bragging right) to do so. Already Taiwanese business began their exodus to China for cheaper labor and materials, whats there left in Taiwan that worth the prices of war?

If you saw what happened to Iraq over the period of a decade, you'd see that there's a new way to kill hundreds of thousands, if not tens of million of people, humanely.

BTW, standing back and doing nothing would legitimize legitimize the illegal and aggresive rape and pillage of an innocent nation. No one would allow that to stand. We didn't with Korea and we won't today.

 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: Dari
If you saw what happened to Iraq over the period of a decade, you'd see that there's a new way to kill hundreds of thousands, if not tens of million of people, humanely.

BTW, standing back and doing nothing would legitimize legitimize the illegal and aggresive rape and pillage of an innocent nation. No one would allow that to stand. We didn't with Korea and we won't today.

Geezz, stop that holier than thou speech about how US military involvement was about stopping all those evil already. US fought North Korea because it was a fight against communism and Korea was important strategically due to its close proximity to Japan and their control over Pacific. It was also more of a proxy war between US and Soviet Union/Communist countries.

Today, there isn't a well defind "war" against Chinese nor communism. Taiwan is not as important Korea strategically. The willingness of US defending Taiwan will be based purely on if the Adminstration feel if they stand to benefit politically from the action.
 

rufruf44

Platinum Member
May 8, 2001
2,002
0
0
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: rufruf44
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: rchiu
hehe, you don't need such long article to state the obvious. It is in the best interest of the United State to adhere to the Chinese definition of one China policy. We all know Chinese has a powerful miltary and China is a gold mine to US busineses.

It's laughable to state things like "Neither the United States nor the international community has ever validated the notion that the majority views of a given people, whether expressed through democratic processes (such as a referendum) or other means, justify an inherent right to independence" or "Moral imperatives to intervene in international relations emerge only when another entity, usually a government, inflicts grave harm on innocent people". We don't really need all those excuses, and we all know those are all secondary to the national interests.

Just say it, Taiwanese people's wish doesn't matter, what matter is United State national interest and it doesn't hurt United State interest when going to war with little country like Iraq (or so did the Bush Admin thought), but it sure does when going to war with a gorilla like China.

You admit whatever you want, I just state the facts. As the article stated and as I've stated many times, the United States will not let Taiwan be invaded by the God-less Chinese and we do nothing. That will never, ever happen. If the Chinese don't understand this, then tens of millions of people will have to die and a new government installed in Beijing for them to get the picture.

Heh, American won't let thousands of their own dies in a war against a powerful country such as China. Last time they fought the Red Army, its end in a stalemate (Korean war). Just look at the war in Iraq and the strong sentiment against it. Replace it with the fact this is a country with nuclear arsenal in its fingetip, and the fact there's nothing to gain in Taiwan (its a small island with no strategic significance), you got the point. Big business also won't risk losing their factories and huge "undeveloped" market in China.

Then again, China won't invade Taiwan. There's no benefit (asides of bragging right) to do so. Already Taiwanese business began their exodus to China for cheaper labor and materials, whats there left in Taiwan that worth the prices of war?

If you saw what happened to Iraq over the period of a decade, you'd see that there's a new way to kill hundreds of thousands, if not tens of million of people, humanely.

BTW, standing back and doing nothing would legitimize legitimize the illegal and aggresive rape and pillage of an innocent nation. No one would allow that to stand. We didn't with Korea and we won't today.

heh, you're naive indeed to believe the US will come in the basis of humanity alone. US didn't step in while millions of slaughtering is going on in various African countries, US didn't step in when Japan was raping china (literaly), US didn't step in Bosnia-Herzegovina until very late, US didn't step in with its military might when the Afghan were crushed by the Soviets (only helping out the mujaheden with limited weapons), and US won't risk a war against China when there's nothing to gain from it. North Korea was done to stop communist evasion, same with Vietnam, while Iraq's war is to stop terrorism/secure oil field, etc.

Tell me, what is there to gain for US from Taiwan that risk incuring thousand, if not hundreds of thousands if not millions of its own people in an open war with China?
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,903
2
76
I think its in the US interest to defend Taiwan. Taiwan is next to a major shipping pipeline which feeds raw materials and oil to Japan and South Korea. Most of the oil that South Korea and Japan receive come from ships that go directly past Taiwan. If China does capture Taiwan, they would be in a position to choke that pipeline. This is bad because a choked pipeline would severely weaken both a SK defense against a NK invasion and the Japanese economy. This would be disastrous for American interests and for American troops in the area.

Also, Taiwan is currently used as a shield against Chinese influence into the Pacific. If China were to take Taiwan, they would use it as an unsinkable carrier in which to project naval influence into the heart of the Pacific and thus reducing American naval superiority in the region. Once again hurting American interests.

Plus the US doesn't have to be drawn into a major war with China nor risk hundreds of thousands of deaths. It doesn't have to use ground troops to fight for Taiwan. All it needs is the US Navy to prevent a Chinese invasion of the island. For a Chinese invasion of Taiwan to be successful, it must be on the scale of the D-Day invasion of Normandy. Thats a lot of troops you gotta bring across 60 miles of water. All the US Navy needs to do is prevent them from crossing. Thats well within the abilities of the US 7th fleet and bombers from Okinawa and Guam. The US is not going to go in and topple the Chinese government, so the risk is medium-low. The rewards are good because it calms down the US allies in the region: South Korea, Japan, Philipines (Spratly Islands), and Australia.

Lastly there is historical precedence for the US defending Taiwan. The US has gotten involved in Asia to try to stop the spread of Communism in Korea and Vietnam. It also helped train and supply Afghan fighters against the Soviet invasion.

Edit: I also like to add that US didn't help Tibet because it fell so quickly and plus its deep inland which makes it very hard to send troops and supply them, while Vietnam and Korea were easy to resupply.
 

rufruf44

Platinum Member
May 8, 2001
2,002
0
0
Originally posted by: maddogchen
I think its in the US interest to defend Taiwan. Taiwan is next to a major shipping pipeline which feeds raw materials and oil to Japan and South Korea. Most of the oil that South Korea and Japan receive come from ships that go directly past Taiwan. If China does capture Taiwan, they would be in a position to choke that pipeline. This is bad because a choked pipeline would severely weaken both a SK defense against a NK invasion and the Japanese economy. This would be disastrous for American interests and for American troops in the area.

Also, Taiwan is currently used as a shield against Chinese influence into the Pacific. If China were to take Taiwan, they would use it as an unsinkable carrier in which to project naval influence into the heart of the Pacific and thus reducing American naval superiority in the region. Once again hurting American interests.

Plus the US doesn't have to be drawn into a major war with China nor risk hundreds of thousands of deaths. It doesn't have to use ground troops to fight for Taiwan. All it needs is the US Navy to prevent a Chinese invasion of the island. For a Chinese invasion of Taiwan to be successful, it must be on the scale of the D-Day invasion of Normandy. Thats a lot of troops you gotta bring across 60 miles of water. All the US Navy needs to do is prevent them from crossing. Thats well within the abilities of the US 7th fleet and bombers from Okinawa and Guam. The US is not going to go in and topple the Chinese government, so the risk is medium-low. The rewards are good because it calms down the US allies in the region: South Korea, Japan, Philipines (Spratly Islands), and Australia.

Lastly there is historical precedence for the US defending Taiwan. The US has gotten involved in Asia to try to stop the spread of Communism in Korea and Vietnam. It also helped train and supply Afghan fighters against the Soviet invasion.

Edit: I also like to add that US didn't help Tibet because it fell so quickly and plus its deep inland which makes it very hard to send troops and supply them, while Vietnam and Korea were easy to resupply.

Thats just it, the red army doesn't need to launch a ground invasion. They can just rain Taiwan with missile attack, effectively knocking out its infrastructure, navy and airforce and then rain bombers from above with numerically superior air force. Even if the US 7th fleet come to the rescue (which probably will take weeks at the earliest), they could got wipe out pretty easily with a nuclear attack. US forces will thousands of its men & women in an instant if that happen, and I imagine it won't be hard to do that, judging the chinese has over 3000 fighter plane, and the fleet can only effectively muster several dozens in a given carrier.

But like I said before, the PRC politbiro would not gain anything by invading Taiwan. They're not exactly trying to promote the widespread of comunism as they were several decades ago. Taiwan hold no significance value for China that they don't already have. Rather than risk going to a full scale war with nothing to gain, its much better for China to to keep imposing the lifelong threat of invasion, and let Taiwanese enjoy a sense of insecurity/fear for the rest of their life.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: rufruf44
Originally posted by: maddogchen
I think its in the US interest to defend Taiwan. Taiwan is next to a major shipping pipeline which feeds raw materials and oil to Japan and South Korea. Most of the oil that South Korea and Japan receive come from ships that go directly past Taiwan. If China does capture Taiwan, they would be in a position to choke that pipeline. This is bad because a choked pipeline would severely weaken both a SK defense against a NK invasion and the Japanese economy. This would be disastrous for American interests and for American troops in the area.

Also, Taiwan is currently used as a shield against Chinese influence into the Pacific. If China were to take Taiwan, they would use it as an unsinkable carrier in which to project naval influence into the heart of the Pacific and thus reducing American naval superiority in the region. Once again hurting American interests.

Plus the US doesn't have to be drawn into a major war with China nor risk hundreds of thousands of deaths. It doesn't have to use ground troops to fight for Taiwan. All it needs is the US Navy to prevent a Chinese invasion of the island. For a Chinese invasion of Taiwan to be successful, it must be on the scale of the D-Day invasion of Normandy. Thats a lot of troops you gotta bring across 60 miles of water. All the US Navy needs to do is prevent them from crossing. Thats well within the abilities of the US 7th fleet and bombers from Okinawa and Guam. The US is not going to go in and topple the Chinese government, so the risk is medium-low. The rewards are good because it calms down the US allies in the region: South Korea, Japan, Philipines (Spratly Islands), and Australia.

Lastly there is historical precedence for the US defending Taiwan. The US has gotten involved in Asia to try to stop the spread of Communism in Korea and Vietnam. It also helped train and supply Afghan fighters against the Soviet invasion.

Edit: I also like to add that US didn't help Tibet because it fell so quickly and plus its deep inland which makes it very hard to send troops and supply them, while Vietnam and Korea were easy to resupply.

Thats just it, the red army doesn't need to launch a ground invasion. They can just rain Taiwan with missile attack, effectively knocking out its infrastructure, navy and airforce and then rain bombers from above with numerically superior air force. Even if the US 7th fleet come to the rescue (which probably will take weeks at the earliest), they could got wipe out pretty easily with a nuclear attack. US forces will thousands of its men & women in an instant if that happen, and I imagine it won't be hard to do that, judging the chinese has over 3000 fighter plane, and the fleet can only effectively muster several dozens in a given carrier.

But like I said before, the PRC politbiro would not gain anything by invading Taiwan. They're not exactly trying to promote the widespread of comunism as they were several decades ago. Taiwan hold no significance value for China that they don't already have. Rather than risk going to a full scale war with nothing to gain, its much better for China to to keep imposing the lifelong threat of invasion, and let Taiwanese enjoy a sense of insecurity/fear for the rest of their life.

Did you even read the essay? Taiwan is worth a lot more to China than you think she is. However, I doubt that we would stand by. Again, I won't prolong these hypothetical situation.

As for the person that mentioned the slaughterings in Africa I would like to remind them that American interests are greatest with democracies and economic partners. Taiwan is both, hence the need to protect her would be greatest.
 

rufruf44

Platinum Member
May 8, 2001
2,002
0
0
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: rufruf44
Originally posted by: maddogchen
I think its in the US interest to defend Taiwan. Taiwan is next to a major shipping pipeline which feeds raw materials and oil to Japan and South Korea. Most of the oil that South Korea and Japan receive come from ships that go directly past Taiwan. If China does capture Taiwan, they would be in a position to choke that pipeline. This is bad because a choked pipeline would severely weaken both a SK defense against a NK invasion and the Japanese economy. This would be disastrous for American interests and for American troops in the area.

Also, Taiwan is currently used as a shield against Chinese influence into the Pacific. If China were to take Taiwan, they would use it as an unsinkable carrier in which to project naval influence into the heart of the Pacific and thus reducing American naval superiority in the region. Once again hurting American interests.

Plus the US doesn't have to be drawn into a major war with China nor risk hundreds of thousands of deaths. It doesn't have to use ground troops to fight for Taiwan. All it needs is the US Navy to prevent a Chinese invasion of the island. For a Chinese invasion of Taiwan to be successful, it must be on the scale of the D-Day invasion of Normandy. Thats a lot of troops you gotta bring across 60 miles of water. All the US Navy needs to do is prevent them from crossing. Thats well within the abilities of the US 7th fleet and bombers from Okinawa and Guam. The US is not going to go in and topple the Chinese government, so the risk is medium-low. The rewards are good because it calms down the US allies in the region: South Korea, Japan, Philipines (Spratly Islands), and Australia.

Lastly there is historical precedence for the US defending Taiwan. The US has gotten involved in Asia to try to stop the spread of Communism in Korea and Vietnam. It also helped train and supply Afghan fighters against the Soviet invasion.

Edit: I also like to add that US didn't help Tibet because it fell so quickly and plus its deep inland which makes it very hard to send troops and supply them, while Vietnam and Korea were easy to resupply.

Thats just it, the red army doesn't need to launch a ground invasion. They can just rain Taiwan with missile attack, effectively knocking out its infrastructure, navy and airforce and then rain bombers from above with numerically superior air force. Even if the US 7th fleet come to the rescue (which probably will take weeks at the earliest), they could got wipe out pretty easily with a nuclear attack. US forces will thousands of its men & women in an instant if that happen, and I imagine it won't be hard to do that, judging the chinese has over 3000 fighter plane, and the fleet can only effectively muster several dozens in a given carrier.

But like I said before, the PRC politbiro would not gain anything by invading Taiwan. They're not exactly trying to promote the widespread of comunism as they were several decades ago. Taiwan hold no significance value for China that they don't already have. Rather than risk going to a full scale war with nothing to gain, its much better for China to to keep imposing the lifelong threat of invasion, and let Taiwanese enjoy a sense of insecurity/fear for the rest of their life.

Did you even read the essay? Taiwan is worth a lot more to China than you think she is. However, I doubt that we would stand by. Again, I won't prolong these hypothetical situation.

As for the person that mentioned the slaughterings in Africa I would like to remind them that American interests are greatest with democracies and economic partners. Taiwan is both, hence the need to protect her would be greatest.

In the same token China is worth several tenfolds of Taiwan in term in term of finance and economy to the US. Is it worth it to destroy all of that not to mention the lives of thousands, hundreds of thousands or even millions of Americans ? I don't think so.
Like I said its a moot point. China won't invade Taiwan and much rather project fears to the Taiwanese as they've been doing for several decades.
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,903
2
76
Originally posted by: rufruf44
Originally posted by: maddogchen
I think its in the US interest to defend Taiwan. Taiwan is next to a major shipping pipeline which feeds raw materials and oil to Japan and South Korea. Most of the oil that South Korea and Japan receive come from ships that go directly past Taiwan. If China does capture Taiwan, they would be in a position to choke that pipeline. This is bad because a choked pipeline would severely weaken both a SK defense against a NK invasion and the Japanese economy. This would be disastrous for American interests and for American troops in the area.

Also, Taiwan is currently used as a shield against Chinese influence into the Pacific. If China were to take Taiwan, they would use it as an unsinkable carrier in which to project naval influence into the heart of the Pacific and thus reducing American naval superiority in the region. Once again hurting American interests.

Plus the US doesn't have to be drawn into a major war with China nor risk hundreds of thousands of deaths. It doesn't have to use ground troops to fight for Taiwan. All it needs is the US Navy to prevent a Chinese invasion of the island. For a Chinese invasion of Taiwan to be successful, it must be on the scale of the D-Day invasion of Normandy. Thats a lot of troops you gotta bring across 60 miles of water. All the US Navy needs to do is prevent them from crossing. Thats well within the abilities of the US 7th fleet and bombers from Okinawa and Guam. The US is not going to go in and topple the Chinese government, so the risk is medium-low. The rewards are good because it calms down the US allies in the region: South Korea, Japan, Philipines (Spratly Islands), and Australia.

Lastly there is historical precedence for the US defending Taiwan. The US has gotten involved in Asia to try to stop the spread of Communism in Korea and Vietnam. It also helped train and supply Afghan fighters against the Soviet invasion.

Edit: I also like to add that US didn't help Tibet because it fell so quickly and plus its deep inland which makes it very hard to send troops and supply them, while Vietnam and Korea were easy to resupply.

Thats just it, the red army doesn't need to launch a ground invasion. They can just rain Taiwan with missile attack, effectively knocking out its infrastructure, navy and airforce and then rain bombers from above with numerically superior air force. Even if the US 7th fleet come to the rescue (which probably will take weeks at the earliest), they could got wipe out pretty easily with a nuclear attack. US forces will thousands of its men & women in an instant if that happen, and I imagine it won't be hard to do that, judging the chinese has over 3000 fighter plane, and the fleet can only effectively muster several dozens in a given carrier.

But like I said before, the PRC politbiro would not gain anything by invading Taiwan. They're not exactly trying to promote the widespread of comunism as they were several decades ago. Taiwan hold no significance value for China that they don't already have. Rather than risk going to a full scale war with nothing to gain, its much better for China to to keep imposing the lifelong threat of invasion, and let Taiwanese enjoy a sense of insecurity/fear for the rest of their life.

Just three things I want to point out in your reply. First if China did destroy the 7th fleet in a nuclear attack, then there would be a lot more than thousands of people dead. It would probably 1 billion people dead from the resulting nuclear war. Thats considering our current leaders Bush and Rumsfeld, they would go bonkers!

2nd, yes China has a superior numerical advantage in fighter jets over one or two carrier groups from the US. But more than 80% are aging fighters like MIG-21s or copies of older generation MIGs. Flying target practice is what I like to think of them. Also their main job will be to protect the troop transports going across the strait. That will be a tough job considering US Tomahawk missiles are low altitude and can cover 250+ miles. These Tomahawks can be launched from the carrier fleet, submarines, or bombers coming in from land bases in Japan. I have confidence that the US forces could destroy at least half of the invasion force in this scenario.

3rd, raining down missiles and destroying Taiwan's cities and infrastructure does not meet China's objective which is to take back Taiwan and regain all of what they think was taken from them which is Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan. It would just destroy one of China's biggest trading partners. Businessmen from Taiwan invest heavily in China's economy. I don't have figures but I wouldn't be surprised if its in the billions. It would just be shooting yourself in the foot. Thats why China's military goal right now is to build a force that can cripple Taiwan's defenses, and hold off US intervention long enough (1-2 months?) to successfully invade the island. China hopes to meet that goal sometime before 2010. Whether it will work I'm not sure. Have to see what the US military is like then.
 

rufruf44

Platinum Member
May 8, 2001
2,002
0
0
Originally posted by: maddogchen

Just three things I want to point out in your reply. First if China did destroy the 7th fleet in a nuclear attack, then there would be a lot more than thousands of people dead. It would probably 1 billion people dead from the resulting nuclear war. Thats considering our current leaders Bush and Rumsfeld, they would go bonkers!

Exactly why the US won't even entertain the idea of going to war against China. The stake & casualty is too high for an insignificant island such as Taiwan.



2nd, yes China has a superior numerical advantage in fighter jets over one or two carrier groups from the US. But more than 80% are aging fighters like MIG-21s or copies of older generation MIGs. Flying target practice is what I like to think of them. Also their main job will be to protect the troop transports going across the strait. That will be a tough job considering US Tomahawk missiles are low altitude and can cover 250+ miles. These Tomahawks can be launched from the carrier fleet, submarines, or bombers coming in from land bases in Japan. I have confidence that the US forces could destroy at least half of the invasion force in this scenario.



The US carrier can only hold probably 40-50 fighter. Thats a 1 to 40-60 ratio. A full scale attack by the Chinese AF against the carrier grop will definitely resulted in hundreds of Chinese fighter and bomber to sink the 7th fleet. Of course US with the support of JDF and SK can launch an aerial attack from Okinawa and from Pusan, but by then it'll be a full scale war which will includes nuclear. Again, no contest here, there's no reason risking hundreds of thousands if not millions of American. Korean and Japanese lives in open war against China for Taiwan.


3rd, raining down missiles and destroying Taiwan's cities and infrastructure does not meet China's objective which is to take back Taiwan and regain all of what they think was taken from them which is Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan. It would just destroy one of China's biggest trading partners. Businessmen from Taiwan invest heavily in China's economy. I don't have figures but I wouldn't be surprised if its in the billions. It would just be shooting yourself in the foot. Thats why China's military goal right now is to build a force that can cripple Taiwan's defenses, and hold off US intervention long enough (1-2 months?) to successfully invade the island..



Which is why I say China won't invade Taiwan. Why would they? Taiwan cant keep up with China and Taiwanese business is leaving Taiwan for China. There's not much to gain by taking over Taiwan. But if the do go to war, never underestimate what the Politbiro will do. Ideally yes, you would want to preserve the infrasturcute for future use. But this is the same group of ppl that massacre the students which is their own citizens. You think they'll think twice before changing their mind and decides to level Taiwan to the ground ?
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,903
2
76
Originally posted by: rufruf44
Originally posted by: maddogchen

Just three things I want to point out in your reply. First if China did destroy the 7th fleet in a nuclear attack, then there would be a lot more than thousands of people dead. It would probably 1 billion people dead from the resulting nuclear war. Thats considering our current leaders Bush and Rumsfeld, they would go bonkers!

Exactly why the US won't even entertain the idea of going to war against China. The stake & casualty is too high for an insignificant island such as Taiwan.



2nd, yes China has a superior numerical advantage in fighter jets over one or two carrier groups from the US. But more than 80% are aging fighters like MIG-21s or copies of older generation MIGs. Flying target practice is what I like to think of them. Also their main job will be to protect the troop transports going across the strait. That will be a tough job considering US Tomahawk missiles are low altitude and can cover 250+ miles. These Tomahawks can be launched from the carrier fleet, submarines, or bombers coming in from land bases in Japan. I have confidence that the US forces could destroy at least half of the invasion force in this scenario.



The US carrier can only hold probably 40-50 fighter. Thats a 1 to 40-60 ratio. A full scale attack by the Chinese AF against the carrier grop will definitely resulted in hundreds of Chinese fighter and bomber to sink the 7th fleet. Of course US with the support of JDF and SK can launch an aerial attack from Okinawa and from Pusan, but by then it'll be a full scale war which will includes nuclear. Again, no contest here, there's no reason risking hundreds of thousands if not millions of American. Korean and Japanese lives in open war against China for Taiwan.


3rd, raining down missiles and destroying Taiwan's cities and infrastructure does not meet China's objective which is to take back Taiwan and regain all of what they think was taken from them which is Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan. It would just destroy one of China's biggest trading partners. Businessmen from Taiwan invest heavily in China's economy. I don't have figures but I wouldn't be surprised if its in the billions. It would just be shooting yourself in the foot. Thats why China's military goal right now is to build a force that can cripple Taiwan's defenses, and hold off US intervention long enough (1-2 months?) to successfully invade the island..



Which is why I say China won't invade Taiwan. Why would they? Taiwan cant keep up with China and Taiwanese business is leaving Taiwan for China. There's not much to gain by taking over Taiwan. But if the do go to war, never underestimate what the Politbiro will do. Ideally yes, you would want to preserve the infrasturcute for future use. But this is the same group of ppl that massacre the students which is their own citizens. You think they'll think twice before changing their mind and decides to level Taiwan to the ground ?

I don't agree with your thinking that China would go nuclear to prevent US interference in an invasion of Taiwan. Going from conventional to nuclear is a Big........................ jump. A jump which I'm not sure the Chinese leadership would be willing to take. Yes they did massacre their own students before, but are they going to risk their very lives to risk an all out nuclear war with the US? Yes the US could lose millions of people in a nuclear war with China. But you also have to look at it from the other way around, which is China could potentially lose 1.2 billion people in a nuclear war with the US. Is risking 1.2 billion people worth it to go nuclear to capture Taiwan, an island of 20 million? For me, I don't think they're that crazy, because going from killing students to China's leaders risking their own lives and the lives of their families is a big jump. Sticking with conventional would only risk their soldier's lives, which they have a lot of to spend.
 

rufruf44

Platinum Member
May 8, 2001
2,002
0
0
Originally posted by: maddogchen
I don't agree with your thinking that China would go nuclear to prevent US interference in an invasion of Taiwan. Going from conventional to nuclear is a Big........................ jump. A jump which I'm not sure the Chinese leadership would be willing to take. Yes they did massacre their own students before, but are they going to risk their very lives to risk an all out nuclear war with the US? Yes the US could lose millions of people in a nuclear war with China. But you also have to look at it from the other way around, which is China could potentially lose 1.2 billion people in a nuclear war with the US. Is risking 1.2 billion people worth it to go nuclear to capture Taiwan, an island of 20 million? For me, I don't think they're that crazy, because going from killing students to China's leaders risking their own lives and the lives of their families is a big jump. Sticking with conventional would only risk their soldier's lives, which they have a lot of to spend.


Well, they have done it in the past where they send waves after waves of their troop against machine gun (Korean War) and push the US fighting force back. And unlike US, its pretty much a dictatorial system in China, where the politbiro decides everything. Ask the majority of the US ppl, will they risk a full scale war against China which might escalate to nuclear war? The result will be a resounding NO. Democrats won't entertain the idea of a war, and Republican realizes they're facing the one country that can significantly hurt the US.
From financial stand point and the improbable loss of lives (which in turn make it very political), there's nothing for the US to gain by waging war against China when China invade Taiwan.
 

Aegion

Member
Nov 13, 1999
154
0
0
Originally posted by: rufruf44

Thats just it, the red army doesn't need to launch a ground invasion. They can just rain Taiwan with missile attack, effectively knocking out its infrastructure, navy and airforce and then rain bombers from above with numerically superior air force. Even if the US 7th fleet come to the rescue (which probably will take weeks at the earliest), they could got wipe out pretty easily with a nuclear attack. US forces will thousands of its men & women in an instant if that happen, and I imagine it won't be hard to do that, judging the chinese has over 3000 fighter plane, and the fleet can only effectively muster several dozens in a given carrier.
China can't take out a significant portion of the Taiwanese airforce with missiles since Taiwan has stuck them in a massive underground hanger and runway which is under a mountain.

Secret world that guards Taiwan

FROM OLIVER AUGUST IN HUALIEN...

Underground flight crews arm and fuel the jets before they fly out of the hillside protected by anti-aircraft guns. On their return, the planes touch down on a shortened runway along the tunnel entrance before disappearing into the caves again.

Taiwan?s military regards Jiashan as its last line of defence against a Chinese invasion. If the People?s Liberation Army ever managed to land in the island, the mountain base would form the centre of Taiwanese resistance.

The caves are buried under hundreds of feet of granite and the steel doors at the end of the tunnels apparently can withstand nuclear blasts.

Arthur Ding, of the Institute of International Relations, said: ?The mountains around Hualien are so steep that any incoming missile would have a trajectory problem. After flying horizontally across the Taiwan Strait the missile would have to clear the top of the mountain and then immediately drop straight down to hit the base.?

Military planners assume that after a strike by China, Taiwan?s fighter jets would still be able to take off unharmed. Mr Ding said: ?After the first wave we have the capability to counter-attack.?...

That is why the Taiwanese Government is planning a huge expansion of underground air shelters near the island?s east coast. Sean Boyne, of Jane?s Intelligence Review, said: ?There are a number of others under construction, due for completion by 2003.?

Like Jiashan, they may include hospitals and command centres as well as space for munitions and parts. The first new base at Chih-hang was completed in January.

Mr Boyne said: ?In time of war Taiwan would move combat aircraft from vulnerable sectors on the west coast ? the side facing China ? to these shelters.?

In an interview with The Times, Taiwan?s Defence Minister confirmed the expansion drive. Wu Shih-wen said: ?We need to extend our underground shelters and make them even more resistant to attack.?
link to rest of article

The Taiwanese planes include a significant number of recently bought F-16s, and generally have a major qualitative advantage over their Chinese counterparts. The number of high quality Chinese planes with the range to effectively strike Taiwan is actually quite small. Taiwan also has a significant amount of anti-aircraft defenses.

Simple widespread bombing of Taiwan is not really an option for China since their goal is reunification and they can't really justify it politically since these Communist government emphesizes how the Taiwanese are the same people as those in China.

Unless all of the naval vessels are caught by surprise in port, ballistic missiles can't be used against them. Taking them out by sea is much tougher, especially with the Taiwanese airforce still acting as a defensive force and with the difficulties of finding the ships in the first place.

Besides heavily underestimating the US response time with a carrier force, you're neglecting the fact that US aircraft could relocate from bases in Japan and South Korea to airbases on Taiwan in a day or less.

Your nuke suggestions is just absurd. The Chinese government wouldn't risk anihilation over just Taiwan.

I can talk in detail about the very serious problems China would have launching an amphibious invasion of Taiwan if someone wants to hear about them.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Seems like people are still missing the point. Taiwan is not that important to China financially or strategically. I mean it is great for China to have Taiwan, but China's survival does not depend on it. The point is, Chinese politicians cannot be seen as weak on Taiwan issue, it is like politicians here cannot talk about getting rid of Social Security, it amounts to political suicide if a Chinese politician is precieved as weak when it comes to Taiwan.

As a result, it is 99% certain that China will attack Taiwan if Taiwan choose to be independant. Following the same logic, if American choose to get involved, China will not back down just becuae the 7th fleet is in the Taiwan Strait because Chinese leader cannot afford to look weak against the US as well. About face is everything in Chinese politics.

For China, human life doesn't mean a whole lot. Chinese politician won't think twice about sacrificing half a mil soldier to strenghthen their position. It is true that American has the air/sea superiority, but China can afford to concentrade all their military force in Taiwan Strait, and not thinking about how many soldier is killed. This is not something American can afford.

Another issue some people doesn't seems to grasp is that America and China is not exactly at war here. actually I have a feeling that the current Admin loves Chinese more than the French these day. All the argument about how Taiwan is strategically important to American assumes that America and China is at war and America rely on Taiwan to protect it's interest in the South East Pacific region. But there is no need for that if America is a pal of Chinese government is there?
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |