Trump accepts Dem demands on Harvey/CR/debt ceiling, infuriating GOP leaders

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yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
It's not so odd. There is a general expectation that being a politician is a form of public service, not a career in and of itself. Because once people make a career out of politics, they become part of the machine and create layers of self serving bureaucracy to protect the political class. Career politicians are also more susceptible to the influence and sway of lobbyists. Term limits are a good thing.
I vigorously disagree but it's not really important to this thread. I do vastly prefer that federal level politicians have their term lengths both lengthened and capped; something like 7-year terms, but only to a max of 2 or 3 in one's lifetime.

I've spent enough time around politicians at this point in my life to realize that lobbyists can play a useful role, but we really should work to minimize their impact by - I'm just going to say it - giving the government more money to conduct its own research on good policy. My government and yours have both been starved of this capability in recent years. The dependence on lobbyists is necessary now because nobody else is capable of working the numbers on any complex subject.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,820
29,571
146
Getting rid of lobbyists doesn't accomplish anything. One of the primary purposes of lobbying is to communicate information to legislators about the potential effects of proposed legislation. Get rid of the lobbyists and now bills are passed in a vacuum and you have a plethora of unintended consequences.

how about lobbyists are no longer allowed to write bills that the legislators never read? How about legislators get back to doing their jobs and writing their own bills?
 

OWR88

Senior member
Oct 27, 2013
231
73
101
Getting rid of lobbyists doesn't accomplish anything. One of the primary purposes of lobbying is to communicate information to legislators about the potential effects of proposed legislation. Get rid of the lobbyists and now bills are passed in a vacuum and you have a plethora of unintended consequences.
Absurd. Just absurd. Most ridiculous post by far today.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
I vigorously disagree but it's not really important to this thread. I do vastly prefer that federal level politicians have their term lengths both lengthened and capped; something like 7-year terms, but only to a max of 2 or 3 in one's lifetime.

I've spent enough time around politicians at this point in my life to realize that lobbyists can play a useful role, but we really should work to minimize their impact by - I'm just going to say it - giving the government more money to conduct its own research on good policy. My government and yours have both been starved of this capability in recent years. The dependence on lobbyists is necessary now because nobody else is capable of working the numbers on any complex subject.

Americans can just say thanks to Newt-

Because Mr. Gingrich does know more than most politicians, the main obstacles to his grandiose schemes have always been Congress’s professional staff members, many among the leading authorities anywhere in their areas of expertise.

To remove this obstacle, Mr. Gingrich did everything in his power to dismantle Congressional institutions that employed people with the knowledge, training and experience to know a harebrained idea when they saw it. When he became speaker in 1995, Mr. Gingrich moved quickly to slash the budgets and staff of the House committees, which employed thousands of professionals with long and deep institutional memories.

Of course, when party control in Congress changes, many of those employed by the previous majority party expect to lose their jobs. But the Democratic committee staff members that Mr. Gingrich fired in 1995 weren’t replaced by Republicans. In essence, the positions were simply abolished, permanently crippling the committee system and depriving members of Congress of competent and informed advice on issues that they are responsible for overseeing.

https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/...tion-of-congressional-expertise/?mcubz=1&_r=0

Don't need no steenking facts when you have an agenda.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Getting rid of lobbyists doesn't accomplish anything. One of the primary purposes of lobbying is to communicate information to legislators about the potential effects of proposed legislation. Get rid of the lobbyists and now bills are passed in a vacuum and you have a plethora of unintended consequences.

It's a ridiculous notion, anyway. We can't stop congress critters from talking to anybody they want & we can't stop people from hiring others to do the talking for them. We can only make rules about it. Where it gets dicey is the connection between lobbying & political spending with right wing organizations in particular going to great lengths to conceal the sources & extent of that. They're networked all to Hell & back. Check out the graphic, which is really only a part of it-

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...7cfd9a-719b-11e3-9389-09ef9944065e_story.html
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
lol, the best negotiator.

What is with you guys on this? No matter what you just want to divert to bashing Trump. I mean I get it, but in this case, it literally is benefiting your side of the political spectrum? It just shows your warped views of "Oh look, Trump is starting to reason with democrats - WHAT A CUCK! WHAT A LOSER LOL! He can't negotiate! Dumbass!"

Whereas, any logical person would indicate "Good, it's great to see both sides work together and agree on something"
 
Reactions: Starbuck1975

zzyzxroad

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2017
3,250
2,264
136
What is with you guys on this? No matter what you just want to divert to bashing Trump. I mean I get it, but in this case, it literally is benefiting your side of the political spectrum? It just shows your warped views of "Oh look, Trump is starting to reason with democrats - WHAT A CUCK! WHAT A LOSER LOL! He can't negotiate! Dumbass!"

Whereas, any logical person would indicate "Good, it's great to see both sides work together and agree on something"

Have you considered they may not want to support a morally bankrupt crazy POS?
 
Last edited:
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alien42

Lifer
Nov 28, 2004
12,668
3,067
136
Whereas, any logical person would indicate "Good, it's great to see both sides work together and agree on something"

sorry, but any logical person knows that's not what happened, both sides didn't work together and agree on something.

would you like to try again?

Trump bent Republicans over and gave them a thorough screwing. personally, i find it hilarious.
 
Reactions: UberNeuman

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
if you limit term limits you increase the risk of people coming in to help specific industries. Id rather pay them all 10 mill a year and tell them to do the work thats best for the people. After 5 years they have fuck you money and will just do good work. Plus a fuck of a lot of high quality people will be looking at that 10 mill a year job.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
sorry, but any logical person knows that's not what happened, both sides didn't work together and agree on something.

would you like to try again?

Trump bent Republicans over and gave them a thorough screwing. personally, i find it hilarious.

I tend to think that was a side benefit, but in reality the articles are saying Trump was tired of the negotiation and just wanted a deal. He made a bad one for his side. In just 3 months, the dems will be able to barter their votes on the debt ceiling for other concessions. The repugs will need the votes since the Freedom Caucus won't vote to raise the debt ceiling.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,561
13,122
136
a lil gop meltdown will help with upcoming impeachment proceesings.. i like it once again Trump smacks himself in the face with a shovel...
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
What is with you guys on this? No matter what you just want to divert to bashing Trump. I mean I get it, but in this case, it literally is benefiting your side of the political spectrum? It just shows your warped views of "Oh look, Trump is starting to reason with democrats - WHAT A CUCK! WHAT A LOSER LOL! He can't negotiate! Dumbass!"

Whereas, any logical person would indicate "Good, it's great to see both sides work together and agree on something"

Huh? Why on earth is this a great thing? What benefit does the United States gain from this action?

Democrats want a short debt ceiling timeline to cause maximum chaos with republican legislative initiatives, not because a three month extension is a good thing for the country. The more often debt ceiling negotiations happen the more chances there are for a catastrophe. In this case the longer extension Republicans were going for was better for the US, even though they were doing it for selfish reasons too. (abolishing the debt ceiling is the only truly responsible course of action)

Things aren't good or bad based on whether they benefit my side of the political spectrum in a tactical way. Trump here got rolled by Democrats in a way that hurts Republicans tactically and hurts the country as a whole. It turns out, unsurprisingly, that he's as incompetent at negotiating as he is at everything else.

You're right though, this really does show how warped our politics have become that it's expected people would support an objectively dumb idea simply because it benefits their 'team'.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,884
34,847
136
As super bad as weaponizing the debt ceiling is I have to sort of stand in amazement of how casually and unknowingly Trump took a mostly ineffective GOP weapon and turned it into an armed political hydrogen bomb put in the Democrat's pocket just because the President was bored and wanted to get to ND.
 

lopri

Elite Member
Jul 27, 2002
13,211
597
126
I know little of Chuck Schumer however he appears to be the right guy for right now.

Also I've heard these Republican guys constantly say Trump is a deal maker, he makes the best deals. Seems like I agree.
Schumer is an exceptionally smart and intelligent man.
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,703
15,951
136
As super bad as weaponizing the debt ceiling is I have to sort of stand in amazement of how casually and unknowingly Trump took a mostly ineffective GOP weapon and turned it into an armed political hydrogen bomb put in the Democrat's pocket just because the President was bored and wanted to get to ND.

I don't know what to say on one hand Trump did exactly what was right. Inside people have said Trump was hungry for a deal or a victory
.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
I don't know what to say on one hand Trump did exactly what was right. Inside people have said Trump was hungry for a deal or a victory
.

How did Trump do what was right? For his party he put them in a horrible political position and for the country he placed the threat of a worldwide financial meltdown at the center of vital funding negotiations. This was only done because he either didn't understand what he was doing (very likely) or because he was mad at Republican leaders and wanted to spite them. (Also depressingly likely)

Again, this is why I kept saying for years what a horrible idea it was to tie the debt ceiling to policy demands. Republicans at the time didn't want to listen because they were too short sighted to see beyond the immediate political advantages.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,884
34,847
136
I don't know what to say on one hand Trump did exactly what was right. Inside people have said Trump was hungry for a deal or a victory
.

I saw some of the pics from their meeting. He looked bored/disinterested. Couple that with how he treats people he doesn't respect (Ryan/McConnell) and this is what will happen I guess. I think Chuck Schumer may actually command more of his respect/attention than the leadership of his own party does, partially because of their long association even if they find themselves now technically in opposition.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Huh? Why on earth is this a great thing? What benefit does the United States gain from this action?

Democrats want a short debt ceiling timeline to cause maximum chaos with republican legislative initiatives, not because a three month extension is a good thing for the country. The more often debt ceiling negotiations happen the more chances there are for a catastrophe. In this case the longer extension Republicans were going for was better for the US, even though they were doing it for selfish reasons too. (abolishing the debt ceiling is the only truly responsible course of action)

Things aren't good or bad based on whether they benefit my side of the political spectrum in a tactical way. Trump here got rolled by Democrats in a way that hurts Republicans tactically and hurts the country as a whole. It turns out, unsurprisingly, that he's as incompetent at negotiating as he is at everything else.

You're right though, this really does show how warped our politics have become that it's expected people would support an objectively dumb idea simply because it benefits their 'team'.

Repubs want a longer window to lock down appropriations next year & to put it off past the midterms. That would create the need for spending offsets for disaster relief & other unexpected expenditures. They can set the limit low enough that it would demand spending reductions, as well, and we all know who takes the hit if that happens.

Beyond that, Repub governance is bad for the country & the usual debt limit circus makes them look as bad as they are. Under their own rules, the HOR can't even bring it to a vote w/o consent from the Teatards.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,289
28,144
136
Republicans more upset with Trump working with Dems then they are Trump stating some Nazis are good people.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Chuck Schumer is a buffoon.
He is no buffoon, he is a corporate democrat in the pocket of wall street and big business, helping make the democrat party more and more equivalent to the republicans.

http://readersupportednews.org/news...-democratic-leader-at-the-worst-possible-time

Chuck Schumer: The Worst Possible Democratic Leader at the Worst Possible Time
By Jon Schwarz, The Intercept

18 November 16



hen Barack Obama leaves the White House, New York Sen. Chuck Schumer will almost certainly be elected Senate minority leader — and therefore become the highest ranking Democratic official in America.

That’s a terrible roll of the dice for Democrats, because Schumer might as well have been grown in a lab to be exactly the wrong face for opposition to Donald Trump:

  • Schumer, who’s just about to turn 66, grew up in Brooklyn and went to the same high school as Bernie Sanders. Then their lives diverged: Schumer, the smartiest of the smartypants, got a perfect score on the SATs and then went to Harvard and Harvard Law School. He was elected to the New York State Assembly at 23, the U.S. Congress at 29, and the U.S. Senate at 47. He’s never had any adult job outside elected office.
  • He possesses the same impressive political acumen as Hillary Clinton’s 2016 campaign, sagely explaining “For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.”
  • Schumer’s done more than anyone except Bill and Hillary Clinton to intertwine Wall Street and the Democratic Party. He raises millions and millions of dollars from the finance industry, both for himself and for other Democrats. In return, he voted to repeal the Glass-Steagall Act in 1999 and voted to bail out Wall Street in 2008. In between, he slashed fees paid by banks to the Securities and Exchange Commission to pay for regulatory enforcement, and eviscerated congressional efforts to crack down on rating agencies.
  • Schumer has long been the Democrats’ point man in efforts to craft a bipartisan deal to slash taxes on multinational corporations.
  • Schumer voted for the Patriot Act in 2001, and sponsored its predecessor, the Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995. During a Senate hearing, Schumer explained that “it’s easy to sit back in the armchair and say that torture can never be used. But when you’re in the foxhole, it’s a very different deal.” In certain cases, he said, “most senators” would say “do what you have to do.” Schumer also defended the New York Police Department’s surveillance of Muslims across the region, which Trump has cited as a national model.
  • In October 2002, Schumer voted for the Iraq War by giving George W. Bush authority to invade. In a speech explaining his vote, Schumer warned of Iraq’s imaginary yet “vigorous pursuit of biological, chemical and nuclear weapons.”
  • Schumer voted against Barack Obama’s deal to limit Iran’s ability to enrich uranium and potentially develop a nuclear weapons program.
  • Perhaps worst of all, Schumer gave Anthony Weiner his start, first hiring him on his staff, then encouraging him to run for office and then endorsing Weiner in the race for Schumer’s seat when Schumer was running for the Senate in 1998. Thanks, Chuck.
Are there any positive things about Chuck Schumer? Well … he did vote against NAFTA in 1993, and while he’s supported other trade deals since, he made negative noises about the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

Also, he’s a talented matchmaker with as many as 11 marriages to his credit. And he’s the second cousin once removed of Amy Schumer, which you might see as good or bad, depending.

Do Corporate Democrats Like Charles Schumer Belong in a Progressive Movement Against Trump?
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=18228
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,602
29,319
136
Reactions: K1052

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
Huh? Why on earth is this a great thing? What benefit does the United States gain from this action?

Democrats want a short debt ceiling timeline to cause maximum chaos with republican legislative initiatives, not because a three month extension is a good thing for the country. The more often debt ceiling negotiations happen the more chances there are for a catastrophe. In this case the longer extension Republicans were going for was better for the US, even though they were doing it for selfish reasons too. (abolishing the debt ceiling is the only truly responsible course of action)

Things aren't good or bad based on whether they benefit my side of the political spectrum in a tactical way. Trump here got rolled by Democrats in a way that hurts Republicans tactically and hurts the country as a whole. It turns out, unsurprisingly, that he's as incompetent at negotiating as he is at everything else.

You're right though, this really does show how warped our politics have become that it's expected people would support an objectively dumb idea simply because it benefits their 'team'.

Even if you want to set aside the political maneuvering that's going on here and just say it's a good thing to have an agreement to raise the debt ceiling, how is that a win for anyone's "team"?

"Oh, looks like the US is not going to default on its debt. Guess that's good for your team."
 
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