Trump accepts Dem demands on Harvey/CR/debt ceiling, infuriating GOP leaders

[fskimospy]

Even if you want to set aside the political maneuvering that's going on here and just say it's a good thing to have an agreement to raise the debt ceiling, how is that a win for anyone's "team"?

"Oh, looks like the US is not going to default on its debt. Guess that's good for your team."

Well I think in this case he was mostly saying that this was a positive outcome so we shouldn't shit on Trump for doing something positive. If the outcome was actually positive I would agree. Here though, the outcome seems to be greater negotiating leverage for Democrats in exchange for another chance at a catastrophic financial meltdown. All partisan advantage aside, that's a terrible outcome for everyone actually interested in making the country run well.

This first showed up with the health care debacle. Trump doesn't care what's IN the bills he is signing, he just wants to be signing bills and winning because all that matters to him is his personal popularity (and looting the treasury). The problem is what's in these deals is super, super important.

 

[Blackjack200]

Well I think in this case he was mostly saying that this was a positive outcome so we shouldn't shit on Trump for doing something positive. If the outcome was actually positive I would agree. Here though, the outcome seems to be greater negotiating leverage for Democrats in exchange for another chance at a catastrophic financial meltdown. All partisan advantage aside, that's a terrible outcome for everyone actually interested in making the country run well.

Yeah, I see your point. I guess I see the country as almost incapable of any kind of rational governance at this point. It's terrible that Schumer and Pelosi are positioning to use the debt limit as leverage.

Maybe I'm just resigned to idea that the government is so dysfunctional at the point that a default is inevitable, so buying a few more months before that inevitability is intrinsically good, even if the structure of the deal is problematic as you're pointing out.

This first showed up with the health care debacle. Trump doesn't care what's IN the bills he is signing, he just wants to be signing bills and winning because all that matters to him is his personal popularity (and looting the treasury). The problem is what's in these deals is super, super important.

Yeah, there's no question that Trump has absolutely no grasp of the fundamentals of the debt limit or healthcare policy. The presidency is a totally rudderless ship at this point. The idea that he'll agree with whoever talks to him last is both hilarious and terrifying.

 

[JEDI]

So this just happened:

Tump gave in to all Schumer/Pelosi demands without firing a shot right in front of the GOP leadership. This means their caucus will have to vote for even more spending bills and another debt raise before the end of the year...which they were very much extremely opposed to doing before the midterms. Just hours ago Ryan called the Dem demands impossible and unreasonable.

the repubs were in complete control of this scenario.
the Dems are powerless in the House and there's no way they (Senate Dems) would filibuster the Hurricane relief that was attached to the Repubs 18month debt ceiling/govt funding bill.

why did Trump accept the Dem's offer of only 3month debt ceiling/govt funding?
that only causes pain for the Repubs because they have to waste time revisiting this issue BEFORE the midterm elections.

so why did Trump cave in to the Dems?!

 

[fskimospy]

so why did Trump cave in to the Dems?!

the Dems are powerless in the House and there's no way they (Senate Dems) would filibuster the Hurricane relief that was attached to the Repubs 18month debt ceiling/govt funding bill.

He seems to have made the decision on the spot, impulsively, as he interrupted his own administration as it was arguing for a longer period.

Boredom? Mental illness? All possible. A well thought out strategy is unlikely though.

 

[fskimospy]

Now if Trump did THIS I would line up to praise him.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/07/trump-end-debt-ceiling-votes-242429

 

[dainthomas]

What is with you guys on this? No matter what you just want to divert to bashing Trump. I mean I get it, but in this case, it literally is benefiting your side of the political spectrum? It just shows your warped views of "Oh look, Trump is starting to reason with democrats - WHAT A CUCK! WHAT A LOSER LOL! He can't negotiate! Dumbass!"

Whereas, any logical person would indicate "Good, it's great to see both sides work together and agree on something"

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

 

[VRAMdemon]

Now if Trump did THIS I would line up to praise him.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/07/trump-end-debt-ceiling-votes-242429

+1...The debt ceiling is a silly concept. The time to cut spending would be when you craft spending bills, not when the bill is due.

As to why Trump agreed to this, he's a very vindictive person but also temporarily influenced by the last person he's talked to, and in business this works because he's been able to just weasel out of whatever he'd agreed to. So it could be a combination of getting back at the GOP and just agreeing to whatever the Dems wanted to to sucker them with bullshit promises.

Politically, this just completely undermined Ryan and McConnell. From the Republicans perspective, even if this was the bill they ended up with, they know that Trump merely accepted the numbers given to him by the Dems, sans negotiation. Art of the Deal, indeed!

 

[trenchfoot]

He seems to have made the decision on the spot, impulsively, as he interrupted his own administration as it was arguing for a longer period.

Boredom? Mental illness? All possible. A well thought out strategy is unlikely though.

It seems to me that the Dem leadership have recognized and exploited one of those numerous fatal flaws that Trump has and they will take advantage of that every chance they get. Whether or not the Repubs in the House and Senate and Trump's own handlers can do anything about that is, of course, the big question.

I don't know how often this end around game the Dems have executed can be pulled off on the Repubs in the Legislature but it seems to me a coup is a coup so let's take it, run away with it and wait for the next opportunity to do it again.

That Trump may have acceded to this as some kind of revenge kick in the nuts to McConnell is IMO quite plausible as he has plainly shown that he is as shallow as shallowness can get when it comes to being a vengeful kind of guy.

Trump got to stick it to his lackluster Congress and the Dems get to score some kind of victory while being in the minority. A good tradeoff in this regard IMO.

 

[K1052]

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/07/trump-calls-nancy-pelosi-chuck-schumer-news-coverage-242441

Upbeat Trump raves to Schumer, Pelosi about news coverage of their deal

Another person familiar with the calls said Trump told Pelosi and Schumer their coverage was even better than his. “The press has been incredible,” Trump said.

lol to be a Congressional Republican today

 

[zinfamous]

Oh, Trump did it for attention and to add to his daily fluff folder?

 

[scannall]

Maybe they should have asked him for single payer too at the same time lol.

He's always been a centerist, with a little left tilt. And has in the past advocated for single payer. The Democrats really dropped the ball when he won. What they should have done was congratulate him, then run up the flag for the ideas he has promoted in the past saying how eager they are to work with him on the places they have agreed on. Would have usurped the election from the conservatives, and got some progress on issues that usually go left.

Instead we got 'RUSSIA' over and over again, plus temper tantrums. Part of the problem is the establishments of both parties don't like each other much, but they both HATE anyone who isn't a part of either.

 

[UNCjigga]

"Wait...so if I stop listening to Bannon and do things that Democrats actually want, I get better press coverage??!"

/LIGHT BULB

 

[K1052]

He's always been a centerist, with a little left tilt. And has in the past advocated for single payer. The Democrats really dropped the ball when he won. What they should have done was congratulate him, then run up the flag for the ideas he has promoted in the past saying how eager they are to work with him on the places they have agreed on. Would have usurped the election from the conservatives, and got some progress on issues that usually go left.

Instead we got 'RUSSIA' over and over again, plus temper tantrums. Part of the problem is the establishments of both parties don't like each other much, but they both HATE anyone who isn't a part of either.

Trump has been on every side of every issue. He's a short term thinker just trying to get from one moment to the next.

He doesn't really like the GOP, they (largely) didn't support him, and now their Congress is stuck in the mud. Schumer/Pelosi can also deliver something that McConnell/Ryan can't: the votes of their caucus. Probably from his pov now why bother much with the GOP agenda if he can actually close deals with the Dems and he has no principles to speak of that can be violated. Downside is now that the Republicans will be forced into openly opposing their own president, something that probably will split the party.

 

[dank69]

He's always been a centerist, with a little left tilt. And has in the past advocated for single payer. The Democrats really dropped the ball when he won. What they should have done was congratulate him, then run up the flag for the ideas he has promoted in the past saying how eager they are to work with him on the places they have agreed on. Would have usurped the election from the conservatives, and got some progress on issues that usually go left.

Instead we got 'RUSSIA' over and over again, plus temper tantrums. Part of the problem is the establishments of both parties don't like each other much, but they both HATE anyone who isn't a part of either.

Democrats can't do shit. The GOP controls the legislature.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Democrats can't do shit. The GOP controls the legislature.

They can manipulate Trump into EO'ing his way to a more centrist/left governance model, if they keep striking more 'deals'.

 

[fskimospy]

He's always been a centerist, with a little left tilt. And has in the past advocated for single payer. The Democrats really dropped the ball when he won. What they should have done was congratulate him, then run up the flag for the ideas he has promoted in the past saying how eager they are to work with him on the places they have agreed on. Would have usurped the election from the conservatives, and got some progress on issues that usually go left.

It's hard to see how this comports with reality. Trump has shifted positions so many times throughout his life that it's impossible to know where he actually stands on any issue. The most plausible interpretation is that he doesn't really stand anywhere on any issue, he only stands for what is most convenient to him.

I mean at this point how can anyone be so naive as to think 'Trump really agrees with me on this issue'? I mean his entire life has been based around convincing people that he's on their side only to screw them over when convenient. How can people not have learned this lesson by now? He's been doing it for a half century.

Instead we got 'RUSSIA' over and over again, plus temper tantrums. Part of the problem is the establishments of both parties don't like each other much, but they both HATE anyone who isn't a part of either.

When you refer to 'temper tantrums' you're talking about Trump, right? Otherwise it's hard to see what this refers to. As far as 'RUSSIA' goes, you're trying to hand wave away an attempt by a hostile foreign power to interfere with our democratic process. Furthermore there is at least probable cause to believe members of Russia's favored campaign colluded with this hostile foreign power in order to win the presidency. When the president and his campaign have been questioned about these associations they have been caught lying over and over and over again and there is a credible case the president himself has committed one or more felonies by obstructing the investigation.

I cannot imagine how any objective, nonpartisan person in America would not be VERY interested in that. It's a foundational threat to our country.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yeah, I see your point. I guess I see the country as almost incapable of any kind of rational governance at this point. It's terrible that Schumer and Pelosi are positioning to use the debt limit as leverage.
.

Quite the opposite. They used the relief bill as leverage to put off the likelihood of the teatards shutting down the govt, again. This way, they have to shut down the govt for Christmas, probably not a popular thing to do. Dems should try to position the next debt ceiling vote for the end of fiscal 2018, Sept 30, just so Repubs can remind the public what idiots they are just before the midterms.

 

[UNCjigga]

They can manipulate Trump into EO'ing his way to a more centrist/left governance model, if they keep striking more 'deals'.

I think even that's a stretch. Democrats should treat this as a small, one-time victory that buys a little time to work out some budget and DREAM Act compromises. They should not make the mistake of holding Trump to his word. At most, this will force McConnell himself to the bargaining table, as he can no longer blame the GOP's lack of any legislative victories on "obstructionist Democrats." He and Ryan were happy to play appeasement to all the various factions of the fractured GOP base and blame everything on Democrats, but that lie has been exposed for the moment.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Democrats can't do shit. The GOP controls the legislature.

That is questionable. If Trump endorses a Dem bill some GOP will go along with it if just because they think him popular with their voting base. He can put the GOP in a very sticky situation.

 

[SMOGZINN]

as he can no longer blame the GOP's lack of any legislative victories on "obstructionist Democrats."

I wouldn't say that. They have never let facts get in the way of good propaganda.

 

[yllus]

The great American negotiator, ladies and gentlemen (source).

 

[JEDI]

it would be ironic if the Senate repubs filibuster's this bill that Trump backs.

 

[bshole]

Trump has been on every side of every issue. He's a short term thinker just trying to get from one moment to the next.

LoL and when you say "short term thinker", you are not working in units of years, months and weeks but instead the units are hours, minutes and seconds.

 

[zinfamous]

He's always been a centerist, with a little left tilt. And has in the past advocated for single payer. The Democrats really dropped the ball when he won. What they should have done was congratulate him, then run up the flag for the ideas he has promoted in the past saying how eager they are to work with him on the places they have agreed on. Would have usurped the election from the conservatives, and got some progress on issues that usually go left.

Instead we got 'RUSSIA' over and over again, plus temper tantrums. Part of the problem is the establishments of both parties don't like each other much, but they both HATE anyone who isn't a part of either.

ah yes, investigating his organization for known crimes and possible collusion with foreign governments was just a bad idea. It's like we didn't have to watch idiots in Congress invent nonsense about Ben Gazi for 5 years.

 

[dank69]

That is questionable. If Trump endorses a Dem bill some GOP will go along with it if just because they think him popular with their voting base. He can put the GOP in a very sticky situation.

A majority of the GOP have to approve before any bill can see the light of day on the House floor.