Trump and Kim have now shaken hands...breaking

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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Supportive of what? What exactly did SK get other then a promise for NK to consider denuking in the future?

I thought it was sarcasm, but what the heck do I know.

I'll just quote the learned Trump family member, Ivanka.

“Those who say it can not be done, should not interrupt those doing it.” -Chinese Proverb
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
47,883
36,891
136
In the news of the weird Pence's press sec and Sen. Gardner (R-CO) are in an argument over if Pence said joint military exercises with SK were suspended or not. That the president's party which is in power doesn't appear to have a solid idea of what Trump agreed to with NK is fantastic.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,686
126
In the news of the weird Pence's press sec and Sen. Gardner (R-CO) are in an argument over if Pence said joint military exercises with SK were suspended or not. That the president's party which is in power doesn't appear to have a solid idea of what Trump agreed to with NK is fantastic.

He probably tore the paper up into little pieces after they signed it.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,095
30,041
146
If Obama would've done this you hyper-partisan fools would've figured out a way to have been on the tarmac at Andrews with another Nobel.

Kerry and Obama laid out and achieved a far, far better plan with Iran and you cried your bitch self to sleep for years over it. Such a predictable little snowflake you are.
 
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Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,686
126
I was thinking a bit after Truman and the Korean "police action".

You said "There was no realistic expectation that anyone would attack them"

But after the "police action", American forces have remained on the peninsula, and in 'this century' that same nation's forces have belligerently attacked, bombed, and destroyed multiple sovereign nations. So I still can't understand why you think it's not reasonable for them to think that the US poses a threat. It seems far more reasonable to me than all the Americans that seem to think DPRK represents a threat to them.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Providing cover for Trump and the GOP?

What's a gish anyway? Are they like unicorns?

The point remains, BTW. Trump offered without the approval of SK to end exercises and Kim has been offered a carrot with nothing in return. ROK? Who brought that up?

You poor argumentatively challenged thing!

What happened is not in dispute. Trump offered a concession, surprising both the ROK & the Pentagon. He/we can take it back at any time.

What it all marks is a major shift in policy towards the DPRK. Our joint objective with the ROK has been to force collapse of the DPRK regime & to achieve reunification under ROK leadership. DPRK policy has been to achieve reunification on their own terms. Both held the other to be illegitimate.

Trump granting Kim legitimacy is a paradigm shift that sets aside the idea of reunification. Whether that's good or bad I really don't know. It's def a blow to the ambitions of our ROK allies.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
You poor argumentatively challenged thing!

About a quarter century ago my wife and I lived in a log home and on the first floor there was a bedroom that had a large glass wall and door that opened onto a deck on our large wooded lot. I used that room as a study and library.

Every year this magnificent male cardinal took up residence in a tree a close to the deck and it had a curious habit. It would attack the window until it bled and passed out. Every single year.

It took a moment to understand the behavior and then I realized it saw "another" male cardinal (in reality itself) and beat itself senseless.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,492
3,160
136
I have a GREAT IDEA......
Trump and N.K. Kim can negotiate then sign some really great agreements, a lot of agreements. Hoards of agreements.
THEN....
We can elect a democrat in 2020 to replace Trump and he / she can come in and rip up every single agreement that Trump and Kim had signed.
Rip them all up, every one, and toss them all in the trash.
Totally obliterate each and every single word written on those agreements.
After all... wouldn't be the first time this has happened. Right Donald?
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
Not to suggest you're doing this, but don't think it's really fair to criticize any world leader for seeking nuclear weapons when the US has consistently attacked and destroyed nations without those weapons, while nations that have them survive.

Personally, I have no interest in "criticizing" foreign leaders for desiring nukes. I'd probably want them too if I was the leader of a country without them. However, we still have to oppose proliferation of nukes, and my concern about the argument you're making, which I've heard many times before, is it can be construed as favoring nuclear proliferation.

I remember the days when liberals opposed nuclear proliferation and were very critical of the idea of mutually assured destruction. Nowadays, we're more apt to hear about how understandable it is for other countries to want nukes because [United States, Israel, etc.]. Frankly, I don't care about who is being "criticized." I'm really not sensitive to the feelings of foreign leaders who want nukes. I'm more interested in my daughter not growing up in a nuclear wasteland, if she grows up at all. The more and more countries that have nukes, the more likely this is the world that future generations will face. This kind of talk is troublesome because it sounds a lot like we're making excuses for other countries to have nuclear weapons. This is an example of political ideology trumping sanity.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Personally, I have no interest in "criticizing" foreign leaders for desiring nukes. I'd probably want them too if I was the leader of a country without them. However, we still have to oppose proliferation of nukes, and my concern about the argument you're making, which I've heard many times before, is it can be construed as favoring nuclear proliferation.

I remember the days when liberals opposed nuclear proliferation and were very critical of the idea of mutually assured destruction. Nowadays, we're more apt to hear about how understandable it is for other countries to want nukes because [United States, Israel, etc.]. Frankly, I don't care about who is being "criticized." I'm really not sensitive to the feelings of foreign leaders who want nukes. I'm more interested in my daughter not growing up in a nuclear wasteland, if she grows up at all. The more and more countries that have nukes, the more likely this is the world that future generations will face. This kind of talk is troublesome because it sounds a lot like we're making excuses for other countries to have nuclear weapons. This is an example of political ideology trumping sanity.

"We" that is to say, Trump, are not opposing the proliferation of nukes, we are encouraging it except in NK. The previous farce, the G7 meeting must have put nations on notice that the US is no longer an ally, not even neutral. It's a bottle of nitro riding the back of a beast of burden and one doesn't know if it will blow, but it's safe to say the jackass cannot be relied upon as an ally.

If I were Merkle and Macron I'd already be planning significant upgrades and deployment of nukes and other hardware for the 21st century of perfidious America.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
"We" that is to say, Trump, are not opposing the proliferation of nukes, we are encouraging it except in NK. The previous farce, the G7 meeting must have put nations on notice that the US is no longer an ally, not even neutral. It's a bottle of nitro riding the back of a beast of burden and one doesn't know if it will blow, but it's safe to say the jackass cannot be relied upon as an ally.

If I were Merkle and Macron I'd already be planning significant upgrades and deployment of nukes and other hardware for the 21st century of perfidious America.

Trump is a horrible diplomat and he is damaging our relationships with our allies. However, Germany going nuclear would be an over-reaction. Anyone with half a brain knows that Trump is a rather....unique individual in the annals of American presidential history. And I'm pretty sure they also know we have term limits here.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Trump is a horrible diplomat and he is damaging our relationships with our allies. However, Germany going nuclear would be an over-reaction. Anyone with half a brain knows that Trump is a rather....unique individual in the annals of American presidential history. And I'm pretty sure they know we have term limits here.

Actually it would be more of an EU deal in response to the untrustworthiness of the office holder in regards to NATO. But in any event I don't look at this as just Trump, but we have demonstrated that our system is capable of electing him and perhaps worse. This is an institutionally fundamental flaw in our politics and electoral system. If my people were depending on me for their safety I would recognize that this aberration is a perpetual possibility every 4 years and hopes and prayers that it won't does not mean it can't. All it take is for one event to go from impossible to possible.

I'd be making long-term plans to remove EU reliance on the US. Survival mandates that "sorry" isn't good enough. "I", that is I assuming the mantle of Merkel or someone like her, have seen the unimaginable materialize. "I" cannot risk "my" people.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
Actually it would be more of an EU deal in response to the untrustworthiness of the office holder in regards to NATO. But in any event I don't look at this as just Trump, but we have demonstrated that our system is capable of electing him and perhaps worse. This is an institutionally fundamental flaw in our politics and electoral system. If my people were depending on me for their safety I would recognize that this aberration is a perpetual possibility every 4 years and hopes and prayers that it won't does not mean it can't. All it take is for one event to go from impossible to possible.

I'd be making long-term plans to remove EU reliance on the US. Survival mandates that "sorry" isn't good enough. "I", that is I assuming the mantle of Merkel or someone like her, have seen the unimaginable materialize. "I" cannot risk "my" people.

It's always been possible for us to elect bad leaders. We've even done it before, though perhaps so far no one quite as noxious as Trump. Either way, I'm hoping this doesn't mean a longer term shift in our relations with Europe and Canada. If so, then Trump's bad legacy will be much worse than I feared.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,517
15,399
136
Iran was a terrible deal...because reasons.
NK is an amazing deal... because magic?

Nope, not magic, feelings. Trump has a feeling that this time NK will negotiate in good faith, he feels Kim wants a deal more than trump does.


And not a single one of trumps nut huggers has even hinted at questioning the deal their dear leader made. Not one.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Trump is a horrible diplomat and he is damaging our relationships with our allies. However, Germany going nuclear would be an over-reaction. Anyone with half a brain knows that Trump is a rather....unique individual in the annals of American presidential history. And I'm pretty sure they also know we have term limits here.

They'll hold on for the ride & hope we come to our senses sooner rather than later.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
6,967
8,479
136
In the news of the weird Pence's press sec and Sen. Gardner (R-CO) are in an argument over if Pence said joint military exercises with SK were suspended or not. That the president's party which is in power doesn't appear to have a solid idea of what Trump agreed to with NK is fantastic.

Yeah... read the guardian piece on this,,Pence is telling GOP Senators that, despite Trump's pledge to stop joint exercises with South Korea, that isn't really going to happen. A Pence spokesperson said that, despite Senator Cory Gardner's claims, Pence did not say that.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...ngapore-us-president-north-korea-kim-jong-un-

I hope someone is mapping this out on a giant wall chart. It's harder and harder to keep up...

So...the upshot of the summit: we agree to stop military exercises (but not really, wink wink) and the North agrees to maybe de-nuke (but not really, wink wink). Peace prizes for everybody!
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Yeah... read the guardian piece on this,,Pence is telling GOP Senators that, despite Trump's pledge to stop joint exercises with South Korea, that isn't really going to happen. A Pence spokesperson said that, despite Senator Cory Gardner's claims, Pence did not say that.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...ngapore-us-president-north-korea-kim-jong-un-

I hope someone is mapping this out on a giant wall chart. It's harder and harder to keep up...

So...the upshot of the summit: we agree to stop military exercises (but not really, wink wink) and the North agrees to maybe de-nuke (but not really, wink wink). Peace prizes for everybody!


Pence Prizes!
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,176
16,606
136
Yeah... read the guardian piece on this,,Pence is telling GOP Senators that, despite Trump's pledge to stop joint exercises with South Korea, that isn't really going to happen. A Pence spokesperson said that, despite Senator Cory Gardner's claims, Pence did not say that.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...ngapore-us-president-north-korea-kim-jong-un-

I hope someone is mapping this out on a giant wall chart. It's harder and harder to keep up...

So...the upshot of the summit: we agree to stop military exercises (but not really, wink wink) and the North agrees to maybe de-nuke (but not really, wink wink). Peace prizes for everybody!

Sounds about right. Everyone gets a trophy.
Trump is definitely the type that wants a participation trophy. He’ll never admit it because it’s weak.
 
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